Dasein/dasein

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Magnus Anderson
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Magnus Anderson »

iambiguous wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 2:26 am\But, come on, how else to explain the at times declamatory nature of the taunts thrown my way.
You don't cooperate and you're too eager to accuse. If you stumble upon someone who is easily annoyed by that sort of stuff, you'll invite trouble.
I can't seem to get those like you to focus in on an issue and a set of circumstances in order to compare and contrast our moral philosophies.
That might have something to do with your inability to have a proper conversation.
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iambiguous
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by iambiguous »

Magnus Stooge wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 2:23 am You've got no reputation, friend. Noone takes you seriously. It's like Ecmandu asking people to debate him.

Who wants to have a conversation with someone who does not know how to converse?

Noone.

So let it go.
Right, I'm another ecmandu here:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34319
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Though of course: wiggle wiggle wiggle...

Anyway, when you grow a pair, you can take my challenge. :wink:
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iambiguous
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by iambiguous »

Magnus Stooge wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 2:31 am
iambiguous wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 2:26 am\But, come on, how else to explain the at times declamatory nature of the taunts thrown my way.
You don't cooperate and you're too eager to accuse. If you stumble upon someone who is easily annoyed by that sort of stuff, you'll invite trouble.
I can't seem to get those like you to focus in on an issue and a set of circumstances in order to compare and contrast our moral philosophies.
That might have something to do with your inability to have a proper conversation.
Here we go again with this "plain English" "proper conversation" loophole.

They can always fall back on that in order to avoid having an actual substantive exchange with me regarding identity and morality in a No God world. Given an issue and a context of their own choosing.

In other words, Magnus has now driven the clown car over from ILP. :roll:
Magnus Anderson
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Magnus Anderson »

iambiguous wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 2:39 amI'm another ecmandu
Sort of. Both of you fail to understand that noone takes anything you say seriously. Everytone knows that the two of you are incapable of having a proper conversation. And yet, both of you continue "challenging" people to a debate. The only difference is that Ecmandu is a bit more honorable in that he asks for a formal debate whereas you don't. It doesn't work, Biggy. Noone is on your side. Noone will be on your side. Everyone knows you're a clown. And those who don't will see it for themselves in no time.

If other people try to understand what is it that you're talking about by asking you to define certain terms of yours and you respond to that by accusing them of being French charlatans practicing the art of sophistry, and by demanding that they stop asking such questions, without providing any reasoning as to why, you have immediately disqualified yourself. It's game over for you. You can pretend all you want that you're in charge but who cares? Noone except for yourself.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Agent Smith »

iambiguous wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:23 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:54 pm Dasein is basically

1. Nazism
2. Marxism
3. Pyrrhonism
4. Augstunianism
Note to Neo:

He did take the blue pill, right?
:mrgreen:

It really didn't matter now did it?
Iwannaplato
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Iwannaplato »

Consul wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 1:24 am Apart from Heidegger's idiosyncratic usage, the German noun "Dasein" simply means "Existenz" ("existence").
Fine, but that's not how Iambiguous is using it either. So, why use a German term for something else, when we have perfectly good English words that actually mean or come closer to what he means?
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Mon May 01, 2023 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Iwannaplato »

iambiguous wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 12:18 am Call it that if it works for you but from my point of view it simply revolves around extrapolating from all of the many, many, many experiences I have had with objectivists over the years. And a few of them who have PMd or emailed me in noting how my own rooted existentially in dasein arguments had begun to disturb them. This and recalling my own past. My own crumbling objectivist Self.
What you are doing here is explaining why you believe you can mindread on this issue. I already knew you had your own reasons. That's missing the point. You're not fractured and fragmented when it comes to some issues, such as here when you could just as easily have other interpretations and be fractured in relation to those and the one you focus on. You don't doubt yourself when it comes to the issues I raised. Suddenly there is no fracturing and fragmenting. And I am sure you are aware of confirmation bias and how this could be skewing the way you interpret things, especially about those people who didn't send you PMs that others may or may not have sent you.
But no, around mindreading, not fractured and fragmented. About your behavior here, not fractured and fragmented. And the choice between really a rather lot of smart people saying the same things in different forums in different decades and what your mindreading tells you, leaves you, yes, unfractured and unfragmented.
If my speculations here don't apply to you, fine. And then, perhaps, given a particular context, you will kindly explain to me how, if you are an atheist yourself, you have managed to avoid being fractured and fragmented in the is/ought world. Any particular secular Ism do it for you?
No, that's not how this works.
1) my point was not that you SHOULDN'T be fractured and fragmented. My point was that on certain topics, ones that could easily be interpreted a few ways, you are not fractured and fragmented at all.
2) Had I asserted something else, it's still not my onus to demonstrate why I lack a certain trait just because you have it. And frankly this is yet another area you are not fractured and fragmented, for some reason.

There could by personal and psychological issues involved in why you feel fractured and fragmented. There could be dasein-related issues involved of other kinds. There could be experiences related issues that make you confident, if not certain, that other people ought to be (in either moral or causal terms) fractured and fragmented. You don't seem to practically consider that possible. You are fractured and fragmented about that.

So, occasionally you take credit for driving people to mental states that you mindread them as having. Yes, you qualify this with phrases like 'in my opinion', but you are clealy not fractured and fragmented about your mind reading. Even though you know that there could be psychological benefits for you. IOW it is a way of presenting yourself - ad hom - as superior to them/their arguments.
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:56 pmWhich is great. What's going on in other minds, one of the classic philosophy issues, you are not fractured around. You'll occasionally make a psychic claim, as if no other reasonable interpretations of how people behave or react to you is possible.

Not fractured, not fragmented. Cool.
All I can do is to note again the distinction I make between not being fractured and fragmented regarding the existence of the White House Correspondence Dinner and being so in regard to my political reaction to it.
Yes, I understand that that is something you are not fractured and fragmented around. That's clear from, I don't know how many posts.

What I am pointing out is that you have another area you have other areas you are not fractured and fragmented about:

1) your mindreading conclusions - even when you have skin in the game regarding those conclusions
2) your sense that if anyone is not fractured and fragmented, you have faced the truth or the inablity we have to answer certain questions, better than they have.


Actions show objectivism even better than what people say are their beliefs.

This post, like most of yours, treats any post as if it somehow requires justification related to and was actually directly about what you want to ask everyone.

Again, you've gotten very similar feedback, including from people who you consider intelligent for over a decade now. And yet, never have I seen you express the slightest sign of being fractured and fragmented in relation to your interpretation of what is happening.

You always put forward the idea that this is about their psychology. No wrestling. No being torn.

What does that behavior remind you of in the category of people you are always criticizing?

Mull that or don't. Mull over my idea that behavior including yours is a better way to see objectivism than what people say their beliefs are, or not.

But I'm backing away, again. Because I just don't see any open consideration of what I write actually being taken seriously. If it's so clear to you that me and all the others who have raised similar criticisms about you must be wrong and you most like can read their minds about what is 'really' going on. Well, fine. Live like that.

But there's a sign of objectivism in that behavior.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Iwannaplato »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:53 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:46 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:44 pm No, "dasein" is not plain English. Not when you say it, not when iwannaplato says it.
Oh, dang. I'll go back to using 'experience'. It's not a term a serious philosopher would use, but I think it's fairly clear. And it doesn't muddle me up with Heidegger who meant something else.
You weren't directing your post at me, so don't adjust your language for my sake. If you and biggy understand the word the same way, you and biggy should use it that way with each other.
Well, my answer, above, was actually playful, which you may know. But I will stop using it, even in that context, so I appreciate your mentioning me also. 'Experience' or 'nurture' when contrasted with 'nature' work perfectly well, they are English words, and using them does not imply that it is some different category we have to go to another language to explain.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Flannel Jesus »

iambiguous wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 2:19 am
Magnus Stooge wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 2:05 am You might be physically old, but mentally, you're a child. Seriously, what kind of response is that? Are you a teletubby? Tinky Winky, Dipsy, Lala, Biggy.
Note to others:

I challenge him to note an issue relating to his own sense of identity pertaining to a conflicting good that most here will be familiar with.

Then in either a straight up civil and intelligent discussion or huffing and puffing [or, as with gib, both] we can explore our respective moral philosophies.


In fact, I challenge FJ, AJ and iwanna to the same thing.
You think you're capable of maintaining a civil and intelligent discussion? Well, let's agree on a dispute resolution officer then and begin. The dispute resolution officer will be able to determine if and when one of us has broken civility. He'll do so with a quote and an explanation so it's perfectly clear where it happened.

I put forth iwaanaplato as the dispute resolution officer, if he wishes to be. Is that okay with you or do you have someone else in mind? (Edit) Plato is out. I'm not sure who else could do it. I'm not doing it without a mediator because I'm not doing it without someone keeping you accountable.
Last edited by Flannel Jesus on Mon May 01, 2023 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Iwannaplato »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 8:33 am I put forth iwaanaplato as the dispute resolution officer, if he wishes to be. Is that okay with you or do you have someone else in mind?
Oh, it shouldn't be me. And I wouldn't want to do it. But thank for thinking of me.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

iambiguous wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:36 pmYou seem clearly to share many of the same rooted existentially in dasein political prejudices. But then Satyr has never ever been able to keep himself contained when others effectively challenge his own fulminating fanatic outbursts.
We have, I believe, determined that this term Dasein is not very helpful in your discourse. My view is Heidegger refers to something more fundamental to our being that we do not notice unless it is pointed out. And once we see *it* we can then begin to think about ourselves (literally our *being* our *existenz*) in a different way.

You use the term in a far more reduced way. Upbringing, social training, what we are introduced to and what we are not, social rules, ideas about right & wrong behavior that derive from our *context* (Christian and now post-Christian Europe). You reveal your own central conflict quite clearly: you were raised up in a specific Americanism (we can easily gain a picture of the *you* you refer to if we refer to the film Born on the Fourth of July).

Recruitment

The Reversal

Down in the Pit

From the movie (more a documentary) Hearts & Minds: Yay Team!

In Iambiguous' discourse, according to him, it is these events, especially I gather Vietnam, that totally upended all his assumptions about 'the world'.

Vietnam, according to Catherine Belew (Bring the War Home) radicalized the generation. The effect of this war, and the social issues back in those days, cannot be underemphasized as we are thinking about ourselves, the political circumstances, the deep conflicts in the nation (the US of course) which begins to look like 'civil war'.

Belew focuses on those who veered way to the Right and to Right-Extremism. But the war also radicalized a generation in the Left-Revolutionary Progressive/Left activist camp.

But back to Heidegger:

So, as 'the world worlds (to world as verb) so we too *us-es* (as in *to do ourselves*: I us, you us, we us, they us, he us-es). We are stuck in thisAdditionally, the issue of existenz being so much the problem that it is for us. And within the problem of 'being' (having this existence, having been thrust into it) we are problematic to ourselves. I might refer to a saying from another tradition: We are like fish trying to ride bicycles. And to pretend that this is 'normal'. We try to carry it off but, if we really examine it, we are uniquely unqualified.

Then also people like Samuel Beckett have picked up (i surmise) some of this -- perhaps from Heideger but from many sources 00 and will say things like
You’re on Earth. There’s no cure for that.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Iwannaplato »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 12:33 pm You use the term in a far more reduced way. Upbringing, social training, what we are introduced to and what we are not, social rules, ideas about right & wrong behavior that derive from our *context* (Christian and now post-Christian Europe). [/i]).


Which could easily be replaced by 'experience' ....or, 'nurture' in the sense it is contrasted with 'nature.' Simple, common English words.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Master Satyr, the Seer who, like the Oracle of Delphi, sees to the core, has sent forth some things, let's examine them:
And so, the linguistic trap has been sprung...using the 'damsel in distress' ploy, to expose 'Karen' Mary Land's learned postmodern semiotic cage - postmodern tropes, her proverbial pit.
This makes sense to me. And it is clear that it must be seen in a much larger context and certainly not just referring to Iambiguous. It is true that the constructs of our 'cultural certainties' get shattered, have gotten shattered, but the postmodern strategy, though it seems coherent, though it seems a 'proper response', can do nothing for us. And thus, and I have said this, Iambiguous not only constructs a 'pit' but describes the pit that he is in. (See Kafka The Burrow). He describes what happened to him and where he resides.

A sustaining value system, indeed an *interpretive model* about Nation, about self, certainly about God and the false-idea of God standing behind a nation's objectives -- all of this crashed and burned. Like castles made of sand.

In no sense am I unsympathetic, in no sense do I dismiss these processes (the breakdown of belief) as invalid. But they must all be brought out into the open.

That is if we are really interested in understanding Our Present.
She is the bait....and there is no desire to exit the "hole" she has placed herself within - the whole, as it were: complete, absolute, indivisible, immutable.
This is a fair assessment. No countervailing argument, offered by anyone, can get far enough down into the depth of that *pit*. All discourse, all alternative views, but especially any specific decisiveness, any personal value-decisions, are rendered essentially false. One is stuck. One is immobilized. All one can do is scream histrionically about the condition one finds oneself in.

"Show me how it is not so!" and all recommendations, all possibilities are shot down. They were all shot down from the start, before the *conversation* began.
She wants to pull the world into it, with her. Resentiment masked as altruistic benevolence. Her "fractured fragmentation" is her mind/body dissonance crying out - a state of utterly comforting confusion.
There is some truth in this. It is inevitable that some people, after strongly affecting circumstances, create an personality or an existential position that is immutable. Their *argument*, then, is one designed to cause other people to see in the same way.

The line Resentiment masked as altruistic benevolence I would modify, or in any case elaborate on. If we are talking about war and its effects, in the Ameerican context, we are dealing with a very serious thing. In Vietnam the public saw the war. Thereafter *they* deliberately hide the visuals so people do not know what actually happens.

I would not dismiss Iambiguous' concerns for black, brown, and yellow people (he often returns to this) if only because the Civul Rights Movement has been so central to the experience of a couple of generations. I have no reason not to take his 'benevolence' seriously.

Iambiguous has never really asked me to comment on these things, and because I made mention that race and ethnicity have relevance to all people in the entire world, I rubbed a nerve which is a particularly painful one for him. "How should black brown and red people feel about what you think?" he has said. But he does not want to hear what I might say (and also what people are saying -- like Renaud Camus in France).
Chaos is what she worships.
Chaos is where Iambiguous is situated. His existential position. There, nothing can be constructed because it is the place where everything has fallen down. It is a place of ruin. And so the metaphor of Men Among the Ruins becomes relevant. What happened? How did these things come about? (I mean in the Nation certainly but then in our own souls, apparently).
Chaos - properly defined - is where all becomes uniformly the same; all becomes equally and simultaneously possible - metaphysical parity. She, like those who trained her, worship this theoretical nil.
'Chaos' as a will to attack and take down hierarchy has been an important consideration for me. This attack on established hierarchy (Robert Bork deals on it in his book) is a sort of 'mood' that infected the mind and heart of a generation. They had some good reasons though! The hierarchies of power who 'determine a world' and the way it is run. Unfortunately, there are hierarchies that took centuries to construct. Along comes the 'angry child' and 'the spoiled child' and starts ripping things to shreds.

But what interests me is the psychology of empowered ressentiment. When one turns, in essence, against one's very self. Isn't this what happened, at least in some sense, after WW2? Isn't this what Jonathan Bowden refers to?

The European Grammar of Self-Intolerance?
She is a self-castrated - self-circumcized, self-lobotomized - no-thing who has willfully swallowed her own severed testicles, and they've now settled in her lower stomach/womb, like two ovaries.....from where Tikkun Olam will be re-born.
A pithy comment not without a few barbs! These are contentious ideas given the Culture Wars and 'attacks on masculinity' and 'the patriarchy'. I tie these trends back to self-destructive. self-hating, self-undermining moods and activism. Marxian critique easily becomes an intense militant praxis. Indeed it has. But it literally takes decompression sessions and deprogramming to be able to see what has happened.

In my own little world the entire question of Masculine Authority came to the fore in my family, but I have a more *traditional* wife who can more easily understand these issues. How men define themselves as men, though, is crucial.

The gender dysphoria is not health, not 'good', and reveals a core annihilation of identification in 'real' and 'tangible' categories. See Camille Paglia and her ideas about sexual decadence.
She is a divine bride birthing the coming no-thingness - 'healing the world from its multiplicity and diversity. All must become a social construct....humanity = god....humanity creator of reality.
This points to the inner, psychological domain that has become so powerful in our present. It is like a cresting wave. The self is undermined. One's own culture and nation are undermined. What can one identify with then? Or to whom does one fall victim? Because surely Power will take advantage of the absent self.
Gnosticism - Queerness. No difference exists...all is the same....or ought to become so when the world is 'healed' and 'saved' from its 'fallen state.'
I hear some James Lindsay notes (references to Gnosticism). He goes a bit too far here, in my option. I see the point though. And it is one that could be talked about a good deal.

What Master Satyr is referring to here is much larger than mere Iambiguous though. He is referring to those with power to mold and reform the world and larger structures. There is an intellectually-based movement opposed to these machinations.
'Objectivist' is the proverbial 'evil', Satan....Nazis....nature. Anything that contradicts this oneness - this final uniform nothingness of her projected dreams - including herself: we are all "sinners".....we are all "fallen."
It sure does look like that! So any decision, and value-choice, any exercise of power to take decisions, to make choices as to how children will be educated, in what values, and importantly how men (i.e. in the sense of the masculine) has the rôle of thinking, pondering, discussing, but also choosing -- doing this one is naturally associated with Nazism/slash/Hitler.
Any resistance to this oneness, in nil, identifies you as her nemesis - as Satanic, as an evil Nazi - negation of her negation; anyone that affirms life and existence is her enemy.
As contradictory and paradoxical as any of the Abrahamic scriptures defining good/evil. Controlled opposition. Divinity uses us all to manufacture its creation - demiurgeous.
There is good material here, topical material.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Iwannaplato »

Satyr wrote:
'Objectivist' is the proverbial 'evil', Satan....Nazis....nature. Anything that contradicts this oneness - this final uniform nothingness of her projected dreams - including herself: we are all "sinners".....we are all "fallen."
AJ responded or made notes in the margin:
It sure does look like that! So any decision, and value-choice, any exercise of power to take decisions, to make choices as to how children will be educated, in what values, and importantly how men (i.e. in the sense of the masculine) has the rôle of thinking, pondering, discussing, but also choosing -- doing this one is naturally associated with Nazism/slash/Hitler.
Any resistance to this oneness, in nil, identifies you as her nemesis - as Satanic, as an evil Nazi - negation of her negation; anyone that affirms life and existence is her enemy.
But we need to look at this more completely. Objectivism would not just include Nazis, but also most of the people who fought them. It would include most pacifists. Most people running charities for the poor or literacy programs. And, really, it's probably best if I don't try to guess what most readers would consider the most ironic example, they can find their own.

So, when pressed why objectivists are bad, per se, we will get examples like the Nazis and the Taliban, but objectivism includes all moral realism. We never get, in answer to why objectivism is terrible, Doctors without Borders or task forces trying to fight sex trafficking.

Just that really the whole thing is about something else.

And in practice in the forums, anyone not fractured and fragmented. who have somehow accrued the onus to prove they are not in some form of denial. His is the presumed default state when one has bravely faced nothingness. There are so many assumptions in that it would take a book to respond to them, and if you're not careful, you might find yourself writing one here, only to watch it not quite read.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 1:50 pm
But we need to look at this more completely. Objectivism would not just include Nazis, but also most of the people who fought them. It would include most pacifists. Most people running charities for the poor or literacy programs. And, really, it's probably best if I don't try to guess what most readers would consider the most ironic example, they can find their own.

So, when pressed why objectivists are bad, per se, we will get examples like the Nazis and the Taliban, but objectivism includes all moral realism. We never get, in answer to why objectivism is terrible, Doctors without Borders or task forces trying to fight sex trafficking.
Really good points here, if I do say so myself in my existentially rooted in dasein opinion, or in other words in my opinion.
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