Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

[Flannel Jesus]

Consider this...

Does 'Causality' matter when you're dreaming, or having a nightmare? Why should it? Or why shouldn't it? Can you explain dreams logically?

Yeah sure, why wouldn't it? If a scientist found out that the laws of physics stop applying to the matter in a person's brain while they're sleeping, hes got a well deserved Nobel prize coming.

[Belinda]

Sadly the people who convince themselves that we are wholly willful beings and not caused by circumstance are more likely to promote the death penalty, and laws against abortion and gun control.

Conversely people who know that there are mitigating and causative factors when crimes are committed, know that rehabilitation and reform is possible and desirable.

That is why the penal systems in modern enlightened countries such as we find in Scandinavia are far more effective and have massively smaller rates of recidivism.

Do you know why this is not obvious once it has been explained? Is it because people rationalise what they want to believe? Or is it because of inability to comprehend the idea of origination?

[Flannel Jesus]

But even if that wasn't the case, even if causality extended past the physical... well, is still casualty.

That's exactly your leap-of-faith though. Why do you presume "the rules" apply outside the ruleset???

I don't presume such. Maybe that's just me?

If the question is "why do I think casualty applies to minds, even if they're non physical?", it's because we see the sorts of things we'd expect to see in minds if they were subject to the time-based causality that physical things are.

[Wizard22]

Dreams seem to have no Causal relation, and therefore humanity's limited knowledge of Physics and Natural Law, abides by the same principle to me.

You're basically assuming 'Causality' where it doesn't belong, cart before the horse.

[Wizard22]

Hell, people don't know what Causes what. Why should I then presume that we know MORE THAN that??

See that's what I'm saying doesn't make sense.

[Flannel Jesus]

I don't know what "dreams have no casual relation" even means.

[Sculptor]

Sadly the people who convince themselves that we are wholly willful beings and not caused by circumstance are more likely to promote the death penalty, and laws against abortion and gun control.

Conversely people who know that there are mitigating and causative factors when crimes are committed, know that rehabilitation and reform is possible and desirable.

That is why the penal systems in modern enlightened countries such as we find in Scandinavia are far more effective and have massively smaller rates of recidivism.

Do you know why this is not obvious once it has been explained? Is it because people rationalise what they want to believe? Or is it because of inability to comprehend the idea of origination?

I think people tend to compartmentalise all sorts of contradictory beliefs, or at least have no awareness that they are connected.
On this particular issue it strikes me that the dreadful penal system in the US is the way it is because people are seen to be utterly responsible for their own lives. That is an underlying ideology it feeds the American dream. But are not willing to look at the failings of other systems such as poor education and welfare that inevitably leads to crime; in fact they deny such connections. The system is consciously promoted by the power holders who incidentally use their influence to grant themselves tax breaks, and pay cheques for social projects, whilst keeping a docile and compliant populace from complaining and or joining together to form unions for change. It's all part of the cult of the free individual. Individuals are atomised; out for themselves and reject unions. This feeds through the system to the death penalty, and lack of rehab and correctionalism. I realise that the terminology of penal institutions can hint at a determinism. Prisons are called "Correctional Facilities" which might hint at an old Protestant or Calvinist approach but this seems have been subsumed under an avalanche of privatisation and target hitting scrutiny.

Ideologies such as this are insidious. "Socialism" is poorly understood an sits in as a dirty word for anything that might mean taxation .

[Sculptor]

Dreams seem to have no Causal relation, and therefore humanity's limited knowledge of Physics and Natural Law, abides by the same principle to me.

You're basically assuming 'Causality' where it doesn't belong, cart before the horse.

Dreams are so obviously caused by the state of the brain. Where else do they come from? Dreams are always comprised of recognisable themes, place, people, and situations. The narrative, however is not bound by the laws of physics. You seem to be implying that is why we have limited knowledge of natural law.

[Belinda]

Sadly the people who convince themselves that we are wholly willful beings and not caused by circumstance are more likely to promote the death penalty, and laws against abortion and gun control.

Conversely people who know that there are mitigating and causative factors when crimes are committed, know that rehabilitation and reform is possible and desirable.

That is why the penal systems in modern enlightened countries such as we find in Scandinavia are far more effective and have massively smaller rates of recidivism.

Do you know why this is not obvious once it has been explained? Is it because people rationalise what they want to believe? Or is it because of inability to comprehend the idea of origination?

I think people tend to compartmentalise all sorts of contradictory beliefs, or at least have no awareness that they are connected.
On this particular issue it strikes me that the dreadful penal system in the US is the way it is because people are seen to be utterly responsible for their own lives. That is an underlying ideology it feeds the American dream. But are not willing to look at the failings of other systems such as poor education and welfare that inevitably leads to crime; in fact they deny such connections. The system is consciously promoted by the power holders who incidentally use their influence to grant themselves tax breaks, and pay cheques for social projects, whilst keeping a docile and compliant populace from complaining and or joining together to form unions for change. It's all part of the cult of the free individual. Individuals are atomised; out for themselves and reject unions. This feeds through the system to the death penalty, and lack of rehab and correctionalism. I realise that the terminology of penal institutions can hint at a determinism. Prisons are called "Correctional Facilities" which might hint at an old Protestant or Calvinist approach but this seems have been subsumed under an avalanche of privatisation and target hitting scrutiny.

Ideologies such as this are insidious. "Socialism" is poorly understood an sits in as a dirty word for anything that might mean taxation .

All this is also true. What causes intransigent lack of insight into one's own biases?

[Belinda]

Do you know why this is not obvious once it has been explained? Is it because people rationalise what they want to believe? Or is it because of inability to comprehend the idea of origination?

I think people tend to compartmentalise all sorts of contradictory beliefs, or at least have no awareness that they are connected.
On this particular issue it strikes me that the dreadful penal system in the US is the way it is because people are seen to be utterly responsible for their own lives. That is an underlying ideology it feeds the American dream. But are not willing to look at the failings of other systems such as poor education and welfare that inevitably leads to crime; in fact they deny such connections. The system is consciously promoted by the power holders who incidentally use their influence to grant themselves tax breaks, and pay cheques for social projects, whilst keeping a docile and compliant populace from complaining and or joining together to form unions for change. It's all part of the cult of the free individual. Individuals are atomised; out for themselves and reject unions. This feeds through the system to the death penalty, and lack of rehab and correctionalism. I realise that the terminology of penal institutions can hint at a determinism. Prisons are called "Correctional Facilities" which might hint at an old Protestant or Calvinist approach but this seems have been subsumed under an avalanche of privatisation and target hitting scrutiny.

Ideologies such as this are insidious. "Socialism" is poorly understood an sits in as a dirty word for anything that might mean taxation .

All this is also true. What causes intransigent lack of insight into one's own biases? One main purpose of education, after all, is for learning how to make rational judgements which must include self awareness. I know the very disadvantaged in all societies don't receive such good educations . However I suppose most Americans are sort of middle of the spectrum as to social advantage and disadvantage. I mean, it's not as if the USA is a dictatorship that wantonly keeps citizens in subjection.

You wrote of the American conscience "people are seen to be utterly responsible for their own lives".

This attitude is like Baroness Thatcher's "There is no such thing as society".

Maybe the USA is undergoing a revolution to redefine what it is to be an American.

It's true that people compartmentalise contradictory beliefs. This morning I had to abandon my affection for the royal family.

[Sculptor]

Do you know why this is not obvious once it has been explained? Is it because people rationalise what they want to believe? Or is it because of inability to comprehend the idea of origination?

I think people tend to compartmentalise all sorts of contradictory beliefs, or at least have no awareness that they are connected.
On this particular issue it strikes me that the dreadful penal system in the US is the way it is because people are seen to be utterly responsible for their own lives. That is an underlying ideology it feeds the American dream. But are not willing to look at the failings of other systems such as poor education and welfare that inevitably leads to crime; in fact they deny such connections. The system is consciously promoted by the power holders who incidentally use their influence to grant themselves tax breaks, and pay cheques for social projects, whilst keeping a docile and compliant populace from complaining and or joining together to form unions for change. It's all part of the cult of the free individual. Individuals are atomised; out for themselves and reject unions. This feeds through the system to the death penalty, and lack of rehab and correctionalism. I realise that the terminology of penal institutions can hint at a determinism. Prisons are called "Correctional Facilities" which might hint at an old Protestant or Calvinist approach but this seems have been subsumed under an avalanche of privatisation and target hitting scrutiny.

Ideologies such as this are insidious. "Socialism" is poorly understood an sits in as a dirty word for anything that might mean taxation .

All this is also true. What causes intransigent lack of insight into one's own biases?

Hybris, arrogance, lack of critical education.

[Wizard22]

I don't know what "dreams have no casual relation" even means.

It means you can fly while in a dream, but not while awake.

It means Natural Laws and Physics don't apply within the dream-state.

[Wizard22]

I think people tend to compartmentalise all sorts of contradictory beliefs, or at least have no awareness that they are connected.
On this particular issue it strikes me that the dreadful penal system in the US is the way it is because people are seen to be utterly responsible for their own lives. That is an underlying ideology it feeds the American dream. But are not willing to look at the failings of other systems such as poor education and welfare that inevitably leads to crime; in fact they deny such connections. The system is consciously promoted by the power holders who incidentally use their influence to grant themselves tax breaks, and pay cheques for social projects, whilst keeping a docile and compliant populace from complaining and or joining together to form unions for change. It's all part of the cult of the free individual. Individuals are atomised; out for themselves and reject unions. This feeds through the system to the death penalty, and lack of rehab and correctionalism. I realise that the terminology of penal institutions can hint at a determinism. Prisons are called "Correctional Facilities" which might hint at an old Protestant or Calvinist approach but this seems have been subsumed under an avalanche of privatisation and target hitting scrutiny.

Ideologies such as this are insidious. "Socialism" is poorly understood an sits in as a dirty word for anything that might mean taxation .

I agree with the American judicial system by way erring on the side of caution. This is why free-will is implied, but not necessarily found. Not everybody has free-will. Therefore not everybody is accountable for their crimes, or themselves. Many criminals are proud of their crime. Many do not feel 'Guilty' at all. Some openly admit that they'll commit crime again, if let loose.

The biggest problem with criminals is they don't have a social cognizance to understand their effects and relationships to others at large. So they don't understand what's right and wrong, what punishments will be met, or how their crimes hurt others. Many are psychopaths who don't care, and enjoy, hurting others. Prevention of crime is preferable, but not practical. This is why societies settle on punishment, ad hoc, as a means of 'showing' society that criminals are punished. It's not about crime prevention. Different societies tolerate different amounts and severities of crime.

A highly disciplined society, will not tolerate any crime at all, even a small infraction like jaywalking. It takes a special type of people to create and maintain such a society.

Liberal societies are much more tolerant of crime and criminals, offering 'forgiveness and understanding' even to the cruelest and most violent offenders.

There's no one-size-fits-all solution to crime & punishment.

[Wizard22]

Dreams are so obviously caused by the state of the brain. Where else do they come from? Dreams are always comprised of recognisable themes, place, people, and situations. The narrative, however is not bound by the laws of physics. You seem to be implying that is why we have limited knowledge of natural law.

That's like saying explosions are caused by chemistry. You're not really specifying exact or understandable causes. Much of psychology today is still wrapped-up in understanding dreams, what causes them, why people have one dream and not another, etc.

A common point in this thread—it's foolish to presume that science/knowledge is extensive enough to state Causality about Existence as a whole. We don't even have many small details locked down yet. If we can't be certain about, and agree on, small things, then what makes people think their understanding of Causality applies to something like Free-Will? It's a gap in logic.

[Wizard22]

All this is also true. What causes intransigent lack of insight into one's own biases?

I would put it at 1 in 100 people have the capacity for self-consciousness or self-awareness, to become aware of one's own biases.

Then another 1 in 100, of that group, to apply logic and reason to these biases, sourcing their causes, and relating them to others'.

So you're talking about 1 in 10,000 people. Self-consciousness is very rare in Nature, and in Humans, not the norm or commonplace at all.