what was, what is and what will be...

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Peter Kropotkin
Posts: 1967
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

what was, what is and what will be...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

I was thinking this morning and reading, and my thoughts
turned to history and its connection to what is happening today....

for decades, since the 1960's, we have had social advances of
several kinds, for example the "sexual emancipation" of
women and gays... we have had advances of the rights
that millions now enjoy...not only in the sexual wars but
in the social revolution of the advancement of voting rights,
economic rights, equality rights... these advancements
can be thought of as "liberal" advancements...
but within history itself we can see that when liberals
make advancements, social, economic, political, there is
at some point, a conservative pushback... let us follow
some historical precedent in how this works...

in the 14/15/16 century, the breaking apart of the
Catholic church...the rise of the "liberal" ideas
of Luther in religion...who was instrumental in the
rise of the Protestant Reformation....as it was oppose to
and was fighting the traditional church, we can consider
the "Reformation" as being an liberal attack on traditional
religion which had economic, social, political and religious
ramifications within Europe....

and then fairly quickly, we had the "Counter Reformation"
in the traditional forces and institutions struck back and tried to
end/reverse/return to the "old ways" of one Catholic church...
and the "Counter Reformation" tried to turn the clock back
socially, political, economically and of course religiously..

and we know from our history, that the "Counter Reformation"
failed in its appointed task to return the clock to the prior
situation of before Luther...

so we have a liberal assault on the traditional way of life
and then a counterattack on the gains of the Liberals....

we have another example of this in terms of the entire
French Revolution... we have the country of France,
being the most traditional country in Europe.. with no
dramatic changes in France in over a hundred years...
and then the left, due to historical reasons, were
able to tear down the entire social, political, economic
and religious fabric of France during a 26 year stretch....
(from 1789 to 1815) and what happened then?
we have the conservatives trying to put an end to
the advancements make by the Liberals and return the
clock to pre-1789 world.... this effort in France, the
the various states of Germany and within Russia and
within Great Britain...

Looking at the 1820's, one can "see" the reactionary forces
seemingly to bring back the pre-1789 world, but the reality
was the ideal was there, there was a quite a bit of
chatter and underground struggle in European, from
England to Russia, that the authorities tried to
end, if not outright destroy.. we can see,
in the life of one man, Karl Marx, and his own
personal history, how that struggle between the
Liberal forces like socialism and communism,
did battle with the reactionary/conservative forces
in place all over Europe...several time from 1815 to 1849,
there were some and sometime larger attempts by the left
to overcome the reactionary right...

and in some countries the revolution of 1849, which
hit almost all the countries within Europe, did change
the landscape of Europe.. the conservative/reactionary
forces that dominated Europe since 1815, had to
react to this leftist driven revolution... and in doing so,
states from Russia to England begin modest reforms of
the state, politically, socially, economically and philosophically.....

Our modern welfare state within Europe, begin with small
advance in the years after 1849 in all the European countries..
it was compromise or risk another 1849....with the possibility
of the left actually winning this time....

the dramatic changes in Europe from 1849 to WW 1 cannot
be underestimated....even in America, the only time in American
history that full on capitalism was tried and rejected, from the end of
the Civil War to President Roosevelt, from 1900 to the start of the
first world war... was a time of reformation in America...
(the seesaw between the left and right continues)
we have the roaring twenties and then the epic making
event of the Great depression..... our modern world was
form in the event of the Great Depression...
and America along with most western countries were
challenged in a diverse ways from the left to overcome
the stagnant forces that had run both Europe and America
for over 20 years....the rise of communism is one such
method or way to overcome the reactionary forces of capitalism
with its economic, political and social oppression of the
people in both western Europe and the America's....

the 1930's was the closes time that America itself almost
fell apart since the Civil War...
and then we have the second World war... with events
that are still unfolding today...
and then we have the reactionary forces trying to end the
forces of change, the left, with the conservatism of
the late 40's up till about 1965 or so....

but as usual, underneath the quiet times of the 40', 50's
and early 60's, were the forces of the left, trying to change
or at least reform the conservatives attack on rights and liberties
of the average person..

with the various revolutions, of the 50's and 60's,
rise of the Civil rights movement and then came
sexual rights, gays and women, we became aware of,
woke in fact, that the social and political structure
of America was engaged in the repression of large groups
of people in America...

thus came the 60's, when we had another rising of the left,
all over the world, from massive demonstrations in almost
every 1st world country in the world... from America to
France to England to the Balken counties that were under
the thumb of Russia... much of what we valued and respected
changed dramatically during the years between 1965 and 1980...
and then came the counter reformation of the right...

we saw the rise of Ronald Raygun and Margret Thatcher
who oversaw the new counter reformation of the
80's. 90's and early 2000's... but this new reformation
really kicked into full swing during the election of IQ45...
and the right is attempting to, once more, turn the clock
back and repeal the gains and rights of millions of women,
gays, trans and people of color....

and we can see underneath it all, is the left trying
to hold onto the gains of the liberals in the years after 1950 to
2000....

I personally find it funny that people call Clinton and Obama,
radical leftist, when in fact, they are right/center politicians...
not even in the middle of the political spectrum, they are not
by any means, even vaguely liberal...

but that is how far right America has swung... the new reformation
of today, trying to repeal the gains and rights of an entire generation,
has a quite familiar ring to it to one who has studied history
and reminds one of the counter reformation, after Luther
and the counter reformation of Europe after 1815....
we have another counter reformation going on today....
and it will fail, just as the other counter reformations,
failed...

and why have the failed? the simple answer is you cannot
believe that once rights have been given, that they can
be easily revoked.....

we can see how this battle played out in the cannabis wars
that have been happening since the 1970's/80's...
and how cannabis is now available in most states...
and shortly the counter reformation against cannabis will
begin and the right/conservatives will try to revoke the use
of cannabis in America.. it is as certain as the sun will rise tomorrow....
just as the conservatives are trying to revoke abortion rights to women,
the counter reformation as it were, to the liberal gains of the 60's and
70's.... this is history as we know it...
the ongoing battle between the forces of conservatives
and liberals... the topic itself may change but the battle
remains.... and the liberals will win this one too....
and why? for the simple reason, that to return to
the "good old days" is the path to failure and the extinction
of America... countries like people can only survive by moving
forward and advancing... once a country becomes conservative,
like an individual, it is on its last legs... it cannot succeed because
all avenues of succeeding are removed because to survive,
as a country and as an individual, we must be able
to adapt and change with the ever changing conditions,
environment that we live in.... once a person/country
becomes conservative, it cannot adapt or change to meet
the changing conditions/environment it faces....
it wilts and dies... the exact same thing for an animal
that is unable to adapt to any changes in its environment,
like the dinosaur or the Tasmanian tiger.... it becomes extinct....

to become conservative takes away that ability to adapt or change to
the changing conditions... just like old people who are unable to adapt
or change, they are unable to keep up with the time...I work in
a grocery store and a vast number of old people can't use or
even have a computer...thus they are unable to get the savings
possible for them online...I deal with this all the time...
they are unable to download the app, so they can't get
the saving that my particular store pretends to offer...

we in America, for the survival of America, must reject
the conservatives counter reformation...to try to return
America to a country that never was... Rayguns attempt
to return America to a 1950's that actually didn't exist..

and so goes the modern reformation... an attempt to return
America to a "more civilized times" as Star Wars put it....
and a time that actually never existed...that there were
abortions in the pre-1970's and that men wore dresses,
as Hoover did....or have gays as the gays did, have a strong
existence in America before the "stonewall'' riots....

you cannot legislate out human behavior... as the GOP/MAGA
crowd is trying to do right now...people are gay, people are trans,
blacks are still black and still want to vote.... this attempt by
the right to veto/legislate out human behavior will not succeed
as every single attempt to legislate out human behavior has
failed.... this counter reformation, to return America to pre-civil
rights cannot succeed for the simple reason, once people have
certain rights, you just can't take that right away... what you
get is a discontented population... and soon, a leader will rise
and the liberals will be back with their own reformation
and the cycle of left and right will continue...
reformation and counter reformation.....

this has been the focal point of history since 1500 in the west..
and it will continue to be long after we all are dead...

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
Posts: 1967
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

Re: what was, what is and what will be...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

to further point out my thesis...
think about the countries that haven't progressed...
think about Spain, Greece, Mexico.. in fact, Mexico
is dam close to becoming a failed state... and why?
and why has countries like England, Russia, China,
France, Germany succeed?

to be clear about this, the basic reason that those
countries, Spain, Mexico have not succeeded is because
they remained religious conservative countries...
whereas countries like Russa and China has succeeded is because
they abandoned the old conservative, religious ways...

Japan for example, totally adapted the modern western state,
and forgo the old, religious, conservative country they used
to be...if Japan had followed Spain or Mexico, Japan would
be in the exact same way as Spain or Mexico...mired in the past
which means unable to reach or even see the future...

success or failure as an country or an individual means one
has to move forward or adapt to new conditions...
failure to adapt or change, means that individuals
cannot move on and become functional adults....the same
holds true for countries... to survive as a country, means
that country has to engage with the future, not the past....
a country or individual who seeks the past is doomed to failure..
a country or individual that seeks out the future or seeks out
the possibilities of existence, they survive and grow...


Kropotkin
User avatar
Agent Smith
Posts: 1435
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: what was, what is and what will be...

Post by Agent Smith »

"What?! Are you in Amsterdam?!" Joe asked, worried to bits. "No, Damascus, silly! I'll be in Amsterdam tomorrow!" Beatrice was touched. We all are ... sometimes ... Dominus Deus Magnus Est. :)
Iwannaplato
Posts: 8552
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: what was, what is and what will be...

Post by Iwannaplato »

So, how do the Communist regimes of Russia and China fit in with this schema?
Post Reply