Belief

[Dontaskme]

If there was no believer, there would be no belief.

Is the belief the believer, or is the believer the belief.

Belief in, belief out. In,out, where is that?

[phyllo]

What beliefs?

Beliefs are an integral part of life.

One believes that one will not crash when going out for a drive.

One believes that an invention will work, will make more, will benefit society,...

One believes that decisions and actions will turn out a particular way.

One believes that trusted people are saying the truth.

It's an endless list.

[Dontaskme]

What beliefs?

Beliefs are an integral part of life.

One believes that one will not crash when going out for a drive.

One believes that an invention will work, will make more, will benefit society,...

One believes that decisions and actions will turn out a particular way.

One believes that trusted people are saying the truth.

It's an endless list.

No one knows what is going to happen next.

Belief that something is or isn't going to happen next is irrelevant to this discussion.

The point is, belief is irrelevant to reality, because reality is unknowable in every moment. The known is only history, which is dead, it only happened through memory, which is also dead. In essence, nothing ever happens, nothing is real, and nothing is known.

[Iwannaplato]

No one knows what is going to happen next.

Belief that something is or isn't going to happen next is irrelevant to this discussion.

The point is, belief is irrelevant to reality, because reality is unknowable in every moment. The known is only history, which is dead, it only happened through memory, which is also dead. In essence, nothing ever happens, nothing is real, and nothing is known.

Have you stopped brushing your teeth?

I mean, yes, tomorrow one might get hit by a bus, or all the rules of the universe change, or brushing teeth turns out to create more cavities than not.

But until then we all use beliefs to navigate, increase the liklihood of not losing teeth, as best we can see.

And this doesn't seem irrelevant to reality. Not mine anyway.

[Dontaskme]

No one knows what is going to happen next.

Belief that something is or isn't going to happen next is irrelevant to this discussion.

The point is, belief is irrelevant to reality, because reality is unknowable in every moment. The known is only history, which is dead, it only happened through memory, which is also dead. In essence, nothing ever happens, nothing is real, and nothing is known.

Have you stopped brushing your teeth?

I mean, yes, tomorrow one might get hit by a bus, or all the rules of the universe change, or brushing teeth turns out to create more cavities than not.

But until then we all use beliefs to navigate, increase the liklihood of not losing teeth, as best we can see.

And this doesn't seem irrelevant to reality. Not mine anyway.

Beliefs are not real.

No one believes this.

[Iwannaplato]

Beliefs are not real.

Could be, but I'll bet you brush your teeth just in case.

I'm with Phyllo on this one.

[Gary Childress]

If there was no believer, there would be no belief.

Is the belief the believer, or is the believer the belief.

Belief in, belief out. In,out, where is that?

There are beliefs that clearly appear to be worth having such as brushing teeth in order to prevent something outside of our immediate experience such as tooth decay in the future. It's true that there is always some room for doubt concerning even things that otherwise seem evident to us. There are beliefs that are very practical and ones that serve no discernable purpose and there are beliefs that seem more urgent than others.

My view of religion in particular is that if there is a God, then God is most likely not benevolent, at least from what I see and experience. There's too much pain and suffering in the world that doesn't seem justified for there to be a loving God or whatever we want to characterize as benevolent. Does that mean God is malevolent? That's a possibility. I suppose a "malevolent" God might also be a being who wants to do a little good once in a while just to whet our appetites and keep us in the game so the s/he can continue to torment us. However, I hope that's not the case. I hope at the very least (because I feel like benevolence is ruled out as a possibility) that the creator of everything is just indifferent and doesn't care too much about what happens to the various beings that perhaps sprouted up automatically in its creation. Or maybe this is all one big accident. Being an accident might also explain a mix of malevolence and beneficence in the universe.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[bobmax]

To think you need to believe.

In fact, thought has nothing really sure on which to rely absolutely. It must always believe in the stability of its concepts.

Thinking does not consist in building something with bricks, but in leaping forward.
Therefore it needs to believe.

[Dontaskme]

Beliefs are not real.

Could be, but I'll bet you brush your teeth just in case.

I'm with Phyllo on this one.

Religious beliefs are not real.

They are merry melodies and looney tunes in this sound and light show.

You don’t need god to know brushing teeth avoids tooth loss.

[Dontaskme]

If there was no believer, there would be no belief.

Is the belief the believer, or is the believer the belief.

Belief in, belief out. In,out, where is that?

There are beliefs that clearly appear to be worth having such as brushing teeth in order to prevent something outside of our immediate experience such as tooth decay in the future. It's true that there is always some room for doubt concerning even things that otherwise seem evident to us. There are beliefs that are very practical and ones that serve no discernable purpose and there are beliefs that seem more urgent than others.

My view of religion in particular is that if there is a God, then God is most likely not benevolent, at least from what I see and experience. There's too much pain and suffering in the world that doesn't seem justified for there to be a loving God or whatever we want to characterize as benevolent. Does that mean God is malevolent? That's a possibility. I suppose a "malevolent" God might also be a being who wants to do a little good once in a while just to whet our appetites and keep us in the game so the s/he can continue to torment us. However, I hope that's not the case. I hope at the very least (because I feel like benevolence is ruled out as a possibility) that the creator of everything is just indifferent and doesn't care too much about what happens to the various beings that perhaps sprouted up automatically in its creation. Or maybe this is all one big accident. Being an accident might also explain a mix of malevolence and beneficence in the universe.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The universe is self evidently impersonal it never stops to think about you. You simply have no special significance or value.

Life is impersonal, it can potentially be a horror for a sentient living organism especially one that is being eaten alive by a hungry grisly bear.
That’s the grim reality of being alive and conscious of hungry bears. The bear doesn’t care about anything but satisfying it’s hunger. The universe is kind of like that, it’s a monster. Eventually everything that lives is going to die. It’s all so impersonal and clinical.

[Gary Childress]

If there was no believer, there would be no belief.

Is the belief the believer, or is the believer the belief.

Belief in, belief out. In,out, where is that?

There are beliefs that clearly appear to be worth having such as brushing teeth in order to prevent something outside of our immediate experience such as tooth decay in the future. It's true that there is always some room for doubt concerning even things that otherwise seem evident to us. There are beliefs that are very practical and ones that serve no discernable purpose and there are beliefs that seem more urgent than others.

My view of religion in particular is that if there is a God, then God is most likely not benevolent, at least from what I see and experience. There's too much pain and suffering in the world that doesn't seem justified for there to be a loving God or whatever we want to characterize as benevolent. Does that mean God is malevolent? That's a possibility. I suppose a "malevolent" God might also be a being who wants to do a little good once in a while just to whet our appetites and keep us in the game so the s/he can continue to torment us. However, I hope that's not the case. I hope at the very least (because I feel like benevolence is ruled out as a possibility) that the creator of everything is just indifferent and doesn't care too much about what happens to the various beings that perhaps sprouted up automatically in its creation. Or maybe this is all one big accident. Being an accident might also explain a mix of malevolence and beneficence in the universe.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The universe is self evidently impersonal it never stops to think about you. You simply have no special significance or value.

Life is impersonal, it can potentially be a horror for a sentient living organism especially one that is being eaten alive by a hungry grisly bear.
That’s the grim reality of being alive and conscious of hungry bears. The bear doesn’t care about anything but satisfying it’s hunger. The universe is kind of like that, it’s a monster. Eventually everything that lives is going to die. It’s all so impersonal and clinical.

I agree. It's very Schopenhauerian. And I'm actually more in tune with Schopenhauer than Nietzsche. to me Schopenhauer provided the fundamental insights into the nature of reality that still largely remain true and evident and Nietzsche provided an attempt to reconcile it with some sort of optimistic approach to living (in the face of absurdity and chaos). I don't think Nietzsche was particularly successful at that. However, N seems to have been pretty good at characterizing or interpreting other philosophers and the underlying dynamics of their philosophies and what drove them to think what they did. I suspect Nietzsche would have made a good philosophy professor or lecturer at a university, had he had whatever impetus or opportunity to go that route.

[Iwannaplato]

Beliefs are not real.

Could be, but I'll bet you brush your teeth just in case.

I'm with Phyllo on this one.

Religious beliefs are not real.

They are merry melodies and looney tunes in this sound and light show.

You don’t need god to know brushing teeth avoids tooth loss.

I was starting small. With beliefs nearly all of us share. That we believe things and as far as we can tell this helps us. Brushing teeth is a fairly obvious act we make that shows we believe something

No one knows what is going to happen next.

Yes, but then we use beliefs for a variety of reasons about the future anyway.

Beliefs are real. Or there'd be no reason to talking about not needing them.

Your first post has religion portrayed as dog shit going into someone's mouth. That's a belief. No one needs to believe that religion is just dog shit. But you seem to have this belief.

Religion is millions of different things, billions. I don't believe it's all dogshit.

And the area I was focusing on has much in common with bobmax's....

To think you need to believe.

In fact, thought has nothing really sure on which to rely absolutely. It must always believe in the stability of its concepts.

Thinking does not consist in building something with bricks, but in leaping forward.
Therefore it needs to believe.

We all believe in things we cannot prove are true.

[Agent Smith]

"What's this?!" cried out Tom. "This is what you asked for!" Dick, equally irritated. "I asked for a hammer you idiot! This is a screwdriver!" Tom was furious, they were already behind schedule. "I know what a screwdriver is ya moron. This is a hammer!!" Dick shouted back. "Guys, guys, look at me. Look at me." said Harry in the calmest voice in Arkansas. They looked ... at him ... and he looked back ... at them ... and ... in his hands ... a hammer.

[Dontaskme]

Could be, but I'll bet you brush your teeth just in case.

I'm with Phyllo on this one.

Religious beliefs are not real.

They are merry melodies and looney tunes in this sound and light show.

You don’t need god to know brushing teeth avoids tooth loss.

I was starting small. With beliefs nearly all of us share. That we believe things and as far as we can tell this helps us. Brushing teeth is a fairly obvious act we make that shows we believe something

No one knows what is going to happen next.

Yes, but then we use beliefs for a variety of reasons about the future anyway.

Beliefs are real. Or there'd be no reason to talking about not needing them.

Your first post has religion portrayed as dog shit going into someone's mouth. That's a belief. No one needs to believe that religion is just dog shit. But you seem to have this belief.

Religion is millions of different things, billions. I don't believe it's all dogshit.

And the area I was focusing on has much in common with bobmax's....

To think you need to believe.

In fact, thought has nothing really sure on which to rely absolutely. It must always believe in the stability of its concepts.

Thinking does not consist in building something with bricks, but in leaping forward.
Therefore it needs to believe.

We all believe in things we cannot prove are true.

Religious beliefs are not real, they are man-made stories appearing to be real, appearing to be real, is quite different to actual reality that holds no belief whatsoever about anything.

Existence is without doubt or error unchanging and constant. Beliefs, come and go, they are like shadows trying to obscure the sun.

No one knows what is going to happen next. Knowing is after the action, here, there are only reactions...identification with what's dead.

And try not to put words in my mouth Iwannaplato, it's not helpful.

Beliefs are useful in the sense they can predict the future based on the past. But all this knowledge is happening now, not in some future or past, since now is all that there is.

Religion is centred on there being a GOD...I'm saying, any belief in God is not real. No one, or thing can know their creator.

[Dontaskme]

Religion is centred on there being a GOD...I'm saying, any belief in God is not real. No one, or thing can know their creator.

The human being that wrote this quote... Romans 1:20

Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Means, what is clearly seen are the images of the invisible, meaning all images are of something that is invisible, and indivisible from the seer. This not-knowing is what existence is, it cannot be named except in it's conception, which is a superimposed story believed to be real.

No belief, no story, but the story is fiction, it's no more real than a dream is real, or a snapshot is real. If anything at all, an image can only be a simulation. And that which is simulated to look real, is part of the game life plays on the screen of empty consciousness.

No one believes this.