Materialism: How doubt could be real?

[bahman]

Person walking utterly determined. Person has a moment of doubt, utterly determined. This doubt imagines there are several possible outcomes, but there aren't. Person decides to go to where they were always heading.

I understand that doubt can be related to a seeming couple of options, but that doesn't mean anything else was going to happen. Just like seeing an illusory oasis in the desert doesn't mean there were two possible futures one will an oasis one without.

So to you only one option is real and another one is an illusion?

If it's a deterministic universe, yes.

But from your perspective, your subjective experience, you cannot tell which option is an illusion and which option is real. Could you?

[bahman]

Atheists claim there is no god.

No, I am not interested in any sort of doubt related to the existence of God. By doubt, I mean that you are in a situation with two options and you don't know what to do because the outcomes of the choices are not clear to you, like buying a lottery ticket.

I intelligo. Are you perhaps harkening back to Descartes' time? What more do you have to add to skepticism?

Well, I have lots of arguments, for example, argument against the existence of God, argument against strong emergence, etc.

[Iwannaplato]

So to you only one option is real and another one is an illusion?

If it's a deterministic universe, yes.

But from your perspective, your subjective experience, you cannot tell which option is an illusion and which option is real. Could you?

Correct. I could not. I don't think our knowledge is complete in a determinist universe. Nor in a free will one, but a determinist one is the topic. So, yeah. I don't know. But this doesn't mean it can't be a determinist universe where I don't know everything.

A non-omniscient creature in a determined world.
That doesn't sound self-contradictory to me.


The doubt is real. In a determined universe, people could be determined to feel doubt or could think there are a couple of options for the next future state. I experience doubt. I experience not knowing. I see no problem with that happening in a determined universe. A cat walks past a mirror and sees 'another cat.' I think that also could happen in a determined universe without there being another cat that looks just like this one in the area.

[Agent Smith]

No, I am not interested in any sort of doubt related to the existence of God. By doubt, I mean that you are in a situation with two options and you don't know what to do because the outcomes of the choices are not clear to you, like buying a lottery ticket.

I intelligo. Are you perhaps harkening back to Descartes' time? What more do you have to add to skepticism?

Well, I have lots of arguments, for example, argument against the existence of God, argument against strong emergence, etc.

That's awesome! Which is yer favorite?

[bahman]

If it's a deterministic universe, yes.

But from your perspective, your subjective experience, you cannot tell which option is an illusion and which option is real. Could you?

Correct. I could not. I don't think our knowledge is complete in a determinist universe. Nor in a free will one, but a determinist one is the topic. So, yeah. I don't know. But this doesn't mean it can't be a determinist universe where I don't know everything.

A non-omniscient creature in a determined world.
That doesn't sound self-contradictory to me.


The doubt is real. In a determined universe, people could be determined to feel doubt or could think there are a couple of options for the next future state. I experience doubt. I experience not knowing. I see no problem with that happening in a determined universe. A cat walks past a mirror and sees 'another cat.' I think that also could happen in a determined universe without there being another cat that looks just like this one in the area.

We reach a good point by you accepting that doubt is real. I think that we can also agree on the fact that you pause for a while until you make a decision when you have doubts too. If this is true then your brain is also in an undetermined physical state because you are in an undecided state and pause for a while. That is true since the phenomena of doubt cannot only coincidentally coincide with when you pause. Therefore there is a relationship between doubt and when your brain is in an undetermined physical state.

[bahman]

I intelligo. Are you perhaps harkening back to Descartes' time? What more do you have to add to skepticism?

Well, I have lots of arguments, for example, argument against the existence of God, argument against strong emergence, etc.

That's awesome! Which is yer favorite?

The argument for the existence and irreducibility of the mind. Interested?

[Iwannaplato]

We reach a good point by you accepting that doubt is real. I think that we can also agree on the fact that you pause for a while until you make a decision when you have doubts too. If this is true then your brain is also in an undetermined physical state because you are in an undecided state and pause for a while. That is true since the phenomena of doubt cannot only coincidentally coincide with when you pause. Therefore there is a relationship between doubt and when your brain is in an undetermined physical state.

No, it's a very specific state, not an undetermined physical state. Undecided/doubt is a description of what we feel and think - any verbal content, any emotional state. State X with molecules in a specific pattern, gives us a specific physical state where we experience indecision/doubt. It's as if you are saying no possible specific and singular brain state could give us the experience of not being sure or being so far undecided.

It's a category error like saying that you cannot have a specific arrangment of letters that represent indecision.
Oh, but you can.

INDECISION
or
DOUBT
Just as a specific, hard and fast arrangement of letters, can show the concept indecision or doubt, so a specific physical brain state can give us the experience of 'not being sure' with all the attendant qualia (yup qualia) and reduced action.

Note, reduced action: but of course that state has specific physical parameters, with continued breathing and chemical processes in the brain, and blood circulation, patterns of neuronal firing and glial action, and so on.

There are all sorts of physical states of physical materials, organic and inorganic both, where something in motion, reduces motion or even with inorganic matter can come close to what our eyes see as a near lack of motion before disequilibrium dislodges something and more obvious motion returns. Like logs in a river coming to a jam at a bend........and then jam dislodges and keeps moving. Perhaps there's a fork in the river and it seems like it might dislodge to the left or right. We can't tell, but the physical pattern of logs is precisely one that will either go to the left or right downriver. The tension builds more logs hit the back of the jam
and just cause we can't tell which way the jam will dislodge and flow first does not mean the state is undetermined. We just don't know which way it will go because the forces and objects are so complicated.

Only more so with brains.

And yes, our pauses have attendant qualia we give names to like doubt or indecision.

But those physical states are utterly deternined.

Unless we have free will and it's a free will unvierse. But then nothing we ever do would be determined and focusing on situations with doubt would be unnecessary. In fact it's telling that some kind of supposedly indeterminat specific set of qualia has to get called in to make it seem like, ah, then, it's not determined. It's an appeal to qualia, qualia that can, and do in a deterministic universe, have an associated physical state and single outcomes.

We have free will when we are confused????but otherwise out thinking and brains are utterly determined physical processes??????
But when we don't know, suddenly causation breaks down?????????????????????

So, people who have less confidence are more free??????

And on what grounds do they finally decide?????noncausal grounds???not caused by their analysis or it would be determined.

Not caused by their emotions or desires, or that would be determined by the prior state. Not it must be some random caprice with no motivation or justification at all.

The assertion that no physical state could be connected to slowed down action and the qualia of indecision or doubt seems quite unjustified. A leap of faith.

[Agent Smith]

Well, I have lots of arguments, for example, argument against the existence of God, argument against strong emergence, etc.

That's awesome! Which is yer favorite?

The argument for the existence and irreducibility of the mind. Interested?

I see. I was hopin', absit iniuria, for somethin' original.

[Age]

So to you only one option is real and another one is an illusion?

If it's a deterministic universe, yes.

But from your perspective, your subjective experience, you cannot tell which option is an illusion and which option is real. Could you?

YES.

[Age]

But from your perspective, your subjective experience, you cannot tell which option is an illusion and which option is real. Could you?

Correct. I could not. I don't think our knowledge is complete in a determinist universe. Nor in a free will one, but a determinist one is the topic. So, yeah. I don't know. But this doesn't mean it can't be a determinist universe where I don't know everything.

A non-omniscient creature in a determined world.
That doesn't sound self-contradictory to me.


The doubt is real. In a determined universe, people could be determined to feel doubt or could think there are a couple of options for the next future state. I experience doubt. I experience not knowing. I see no problem with that happening in a determined universe. A cat walks past a mirror and sees 'another cat.' I think that also could happen in a determined universe without there being another cat that looks just like this one in the area.

We reach a good point by you accepting that doubt is real.

Does absolutely ANY one NOT accept that doubt is real?

I think that we can also agree on the fact that you pause for a while until you make a decision when you have doubts too.

Does ANY one NOT accept this?

If this is true then your brain is also in an undetermined physical state because you are in an undecided state and pause for a while.

LOL but the physical brain, itself, is NOT in a so-called 'undetermined physical state'.

What is happening here is 'you' are allowing 'your' OWN doubt about what is ACTUALLY True become DISTORTED from what 'you' ALREADY currently BELIEVE is true.

That is true since the phenomena of doubt cannot only coincidentally coincide with when you pause. Therefore there is a relationship between doubt and when your brain is in an undetermined physical state.

'you' are VERY, VERY CONFUSED here.

BUT, 'you' BELIEVE 'you' are NOT so 'you' will NOT LISTEN to this NOR ACCEPT this, and so will NOT DISCUSS this.

[Age]

Well, I have lots of arguments, for example, argument against the existence of God, argument against strong emergence, etc.

That's awesome! Which is yer favorite?

The argument for the existence and irreducibility of the mind. Interested?

YES.

[Age]

We reach a good point by you accepting that doubt is real. I think that we can also agree on the fact that you pause for a while until you make a decision when you have doubts too. If this is true then your brain is also in an undetermined physical state because you are in an undecided state and pause for a while. That is true since the phenomena of doubt cannot only coincidentally coincide with when you pause. Therefore there is a relationship between doubt and when your brain is in an undetermined physical state.

No, it's a very specific state, not an undetermined physical state. Undecided is a description of what we feel. State X with molecules in a specific pattern, gives us a specific physical state where we experience indecision. It's as if you are saying no possible specific and singular brain state could give us the experience of not being sure or being so far undecided.

It's a category error like saying that you cannot have a specific arrangment of letters that represent indecision.
Oh, but you can.

INDECISION
or
DOUBT
Just as a specific, hard and fast arrangement of letters, can show the concept indecision or doubt, so a specific physical brain state can give us the experience of 'not being sure' with all the attendant qualia (yup qualia) and reduced action.

Note, reduced action: but of course that state has specific physical parameters, with continued breathing and chemical processes in the brain, and blood circulation, patterns of neuronal firing and glial action, and so on.

There are all sorts of physical states of physical materials, organic and inorganic both, where something in motion, reduces motion or even with inorganic matter can come close to what our eyes see as a near lack of motion before disequilibrium dislodges something and more obvious motion returns. Like logs in a river coming to a jam at a bend........and then jam dislodges and keeps moving. Perhaps there's a fork in the river and it seems like it might dislodge to the left or right. We can't tell, but the physical pattern of logs is precisely one that will either go to the left or right downriver. The tension builds more logs hit the back of the jam
and just cause we can't tell which way the jam will dislodge and flow first does not mean the state is undetermined. We just don't know which way it will go because the forces and objects are so complicated.

Only more so with brains.

And yes, our pauses have attendant qualia we give names to like doubt or indecision.

But those physical states are utterly deternined.

Unless we have free will and it's a free will unvierse.

What do you MEAN by this?

OF COURSE 'free will' exists. Just like 'determinism' exists, EQUALLY.

But then nothing we ever do would be determined and focusing on situations with doubt would be unnecessary. In fact it's telling that some kind of supposedly indeterminat specific set of qualia has to get called in to make it seem like, ah, then, it's not determined. It's an appeal to qualia, qualia that can, and do in a deterministic universe, have an associated physical state and single outcomes.

We have free will when we are confused????but otherwise out thinking and brains are utterly determined physical processes??????
But when we don't know, suddenly causation breaks down?????????????????????

So, people who have less confidence are more free??????

And on what grounds do they finally decide?????noncausal grounds???not caused by their analysis or it would be determined.

Not caused by their emotions or desires, or that would be determined by the prior state. Not it must be some random caprice with no motivation or justification at all.

The assertion that no physical state could be connected to slowed down action and the qualia of indecision or doubt seems quite unjustified. A leap of faith.

[bahman]

We reach a good point by you accepting that doubt is real. I think that we can also agree on the fact that you pause for a while until you make a decision when you have doubts too. If this is true then your brain is also in an undetermined physical state because you are in an undecided state and pause for a while. That is true since the phenomena of doubt cannot only coincidentally coincide with when you pause. Therefore there is a relationship between doubt and when your brain is in an undetermined physical state.

No, it's a very specific state, not an undetermined physical state. Undecided/doubt is a description of what we feel and think - any verbal content, any emotional state. State X with molecules in a specific pattern, gives us a specific physical state where we experience indecision/doubt. It's as if you are saying no possible specific and singular brain state could give us the experience of not being sure or being so far undecided.

It's a category error like saying that you cannot have a specific arrangment of letters that represent indecision.
Oh, but you can.

INDECISION
or
DOUBT
Just as a specific, hard and fast arrangement of letters, can show the concept indecision or doubt, so a specific physical brain state can give us the experience of 'not being sure' with all the attendant qualia (yup qualia) and reduced action.

Note, reduced action: but of course that state has specific physical parameters, with continued breathing and chemical processes in the brain, and blood circulation, patterns of neuronal firing and glial action, and so on.

There are all sorts of physical states of physical materials, organic and inorganic both, where something in motion, reduces motion or even with inorganic matter can come close to what our eyes see as a near lack of motion before disequilibrium dislodges something and more obvious motion returns. Like logs in a river coming to a jam at a bend........and then jam dislodges and keeps moving. Perhaps there's a fork in the river and it seems like it might dislodge to the left or right. We can't tell, but the physical pattern of logs is precisely one that will either go to the left or right downriver. The tension builds more logs hit the back of the jam
and just cause we can't tell which way the jam will dislodge and flow first does not mean the state is undetermined. We just don't know which way it will go because the forces and objects are so complicated.

Only more so with brains.

And yes, our pauses have attendant qualia we give names to like doubt or indecision.

But those physical states are utterly deternined.

Unless we have free will and it's a free will unvierse. But then nothing we ever do would be determined and focusing on situations with doubt would be unnecessary. In fact it's telling that some kind of supposedly indeterminat specific set of qualia has to get called in to make it seem like, ah, then, it's not determined. It's an appeal to qualia, qualia that can, and do in a deterministic universe, have an associated physical state and single outcomes.

We have free will when we are confused????but otherwise out thinking and brains are utterly determined physical processes??????
But when we don't know, suddenly causation breaks down?????????????????????

So, people who have less confidence are more free??????

And on what grounds do they finally decide?????noncausal grounds???not caused by their analysis or it would be determined.

Not caused by their emotions or desires, or that would be determined by the prior state. Not it must be some random caprice with no motivation or justification at all.

The assertion that no physical state could be connected to slowed down action and the qualia of indecision or doubt seems quite unjustified. A leap of faith.

I said that your brain is in an undecided state. Of course, your neurons keep firing.

[bahman]

That's awesome! Which is yer favorite?

The argument for the existence and irreducibility of the mind. Interested?

I see. I was hopin', absit iniuria, for somethin' original.

That is original.

[bahman]

If it's a deterministic universe, yes.

But from your perspective, your subjective experience, you cannot tell which option is an illusion and which option is real. Could you?

YES.

You can?