Omniscience and omnibenevolence

[Agent Smith]

In Islam both pork and C2H5OH are forbidden.

[Immanuel Can]

There was a second post about Adam and Eve also, not sure if you saw that.

I missed it. I'll see if I can find it.

[Immanuel Can]

Now, if you think differently, and if you think any of that is even contestable, please...explain how you came into posssession of all the causes, consequences and actions in this tapestry of a universe of ours, and how you were able to declare, "it's all gratuitious." I'd love to know your secret. We all would.

Of course: make this all about me.

You're the one talking. I just think you're bluffing. And now I'm sure.

[Immanuel Can]

There was a second post about Adam and Eve also, not sure if you saw that.

Did you mean this?

Do you believe that God created Adam and Eve with sound minds, for instance? A couple of the syllogisms were about how a person with sound mind would know not to make a choice without ensuring they have enough information to make that choice, for instance...

I didn't say more about this because I already explained the Miltonic view of Adam and Eve.

"Sound minds." What does that entail? Do you mean "perfect minds that are also omniscient"? Clearly not. Or do you merely mean "minds capable of both understanding and volitional choice" If you mean the latter, then yes.

But one thing the Bible says that Adam and Eve did not have was "the knowledge of good and evil." And that makes sense; having had no experience at all of evil, personally, and having never disobeyed God and never having experienced any rupture in fellowship with Him, they would have absolutely no concept of what evil was like, except that God had frankly told them it was something they shouldn't want to have. So in one way, they were behind you and I: you and I know what good and evil are. Adam and Eve would not have known that.

There is still this incoherence in claiming that God made Adam and Eve "perfectly,"

The claim that Adam and Eve were "good" is made in Genesis, but not the claim that they were "perfect." I think the main issue we'd have to sort out is what is meant by "perfect" here: for if you check, you'll find that there are at least seven definitions of its use as an adjective, even in the Oxford dictionary. For example, it can mean "complete" or "inerrant" or "suitable" or "exact" or "fitting to a role"...

So we'd have to perfect our definition of "perfect" in order to make it perfectly clear.

The only way they could make a choice that went poorly is if they weren't created with sound minds...

No, that's not the case. Sin isn't a matter of not knowing what's right; it's a matter of wanting what's wrong. That's not a fault of the mind, of comprehension, but a fault of volition...and volition, as we know, is quite a different thing from morality.

...Him putting them in a situation without equipping them with the knowledge necessary to make a decision.

They DID have the necessary knowledge. God had explicitly told them, "In the day you eat of it [the tree] you shall surely die." And the narrative says that they hid themselves in shame, after they did it.

They knew what they ought to have done; what they chose to do was something different -- a phenomenon not unfamiliar to us at all. We all know what we should do, but often choose not to do it.

[Belinda]

Immanuel Can wrote:

Nietzsche knew (and his disciple, Foucault, developed the idea) that when belief in God is stripped away from humanity, there would be nothing left but the naked fact of "will to power." There would only be those who held the power, and those who wanted the power, with no overarching objective conception to arbitrate between them and say, "This use of power is legitimate, but that one is not."

Power is not power when it lacks either insight or reciprocity.
Reciprocity that lacks generosity and mercy is insufficient for the greatest power.

[iambiguous]

Now, if you think differently, and if you think any of that is even contestable, please...explain how you came into posssession of all the causes, consequences and actions in this tapestry of a universe of ours, and how you were able to declare, "it's all gratuitious." I'd love to know your secret. We all would.

Of course: make this all about me.

You're the one talking. I just think you're bluffing. And now I'm sure.

What on earth does that even mean?!!

Still, it does give me yet another opportunity to remind him that, given the world as it is, some find it nearly impossible to reconcile an omniscient and omnipotent Christian God with a God said to be omnibenevolent in turn.

You know, given this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

No, instead, it just seems more reasonable to embrace either Rabbi Kushner's conjectures or admit that if there is a God given the above links, He surely must be a sadistic monster. And that's before we get to the part about Hell.

Right, Ierrellus?

[Immanuel Can]

Of course: make this all about me.

You're the one talking. I just think you're bluffing. And now I'm sure.

What on earth does that even mean?!!

The words are very simple. So is the truth of them.

This is not about you. I didn't make it about you. I just asked you, essentially, if you thought you were omniscient. And now you've admitted you're not...which we all knew, obviously, anyway, since nobody but God is. You asked, "What on earth does that even mean?" So there was something you didn't know.

You don't know why suffering exists. You're not even capable, in theory, of knowing, if you were handed the answer. The variables involved are manifestly not limited to your own perspective, time, knowledge of causes, understanding of chains of effect, and so on. Like all of us, you're a small, localized being in the midst of a vast tapestry of complex interactions, but one complaining that if you can't understand it all, it can't possibly have reasons for existing.

That's understandable, as a knee-jerk assumption or reaction, especially an unthinking one. But it's not plausible as a complaint.

[iambiguous]

You're the one talking. I just think you're bluffing. And now I'm sure.

What on earth does that even mean?!!

The words are very simple. So is the truth of them.

This is not about you. I didn't make it about you. I just asked you, essentially, if you thought you were omniscient. And now you've admitted you're not...which we all knew, obviously, anyway, since nobody but God is. You asked, "What on earth does that even mean?" So there was something you didn't know.

You don't know why suffering exists. You're not even capable, in theory, of knowing, if you were handed the answer. The variables involved are manifestly not limited to your own perspective, time, knowledge of causes, understanding of chains of effect, and so on. Like all of us, you're a small, localized being in the midst of a vast tapestry of complex interactions, but one complaining that if you can't understand it all, it can't possibly have reasons for existing.

That's understandable, as a knee-jerk assumption or reaction, especially an unthinking one. But it's not plausible as a complaint.

Perhaps...

On the other hand:

...it does give me yet another opportunity to remind him that, given the world as it is, some find it nearly impossible to reconcile an omniscient and omnipotent Christian God with a God said to be omnibenevolent in turn.

You know, given this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

No, instead, it just seems more reasonable to embrace either Rabbi Kushner's conjectures or admit that if there is a God given the above links, He surely must be a sadistic monster. And that's before we get to the part about Hell.

Now, about those videos...

[Immanuel Can]

...given this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

You seem to think that repeating a list of things that seem bad to you, but the reasons for which (assuming there are such) you don't claim to understand, is some kind of important thing to do.

I can't see why you think that. Humans are limited, local, perspectival, fallible creatures. You know that. If they don't have particular explanations for all the types of suffering that can happen in the world, why is that even surprising? And it's certainly not indicative of anything that's obvious.

[iambiguous]

...given this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

You seem to think that repeating a list of things that seem bad to you, but the reasons for which (assuming there are such) you don't claim to understand, is some kind of important thing to do.

They don't seem bad to you? Of course, more to the point, they don't seem bad to your omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent Christian God. Given His own Divine reasons.

I can't see why you think that. Humans are limited, local, perspectival, fallible creatures. You know that. If they don't have particular explanations for all the types of suffering that can happen in the world, why is that even surprising? And it's certainly not indicative of anything that's obvious.

It's not surprising. What surprises -- astonishes -- me is that millions around the globe are still able to reconcile those links above with a God said to be loving, just and merciful. But then I remind myself of the alternative: No God and all of these terrible things happen for absolutely no reason at all. Shit happens. It's just a mindless nature doing its thing.

And don't forget, I truly do wish that somehow I could believe in the Christian God again. What with oblivion getting closer and closer.

Which is why, again, I'm asking you to provide me with the link to the video that you believe warrants your claim that the Christian God resides in Heaven as surely as the Pope resides in the Vatican.

Note to Astro Cat:

Wouldn't that interest you as well?

[Immanuel Can]

You seem to think that repeating a list of things that seem bad to you, but the reasons for which (assuming there are such) you don't claim to understand, is some kind of important thing to do.

They don't seem bad to you?

Seem? Well, where any of us stands, the world "seems" flat. Of course, it isn't. That's just an effect of our limited perspective. So "seeming" doesn't tell us anything.

I look at those things, and they make me feel sad. But do I claim to know why they happen? No, of course not. I'm all too conscious of my own limitations. I know there are bigger things in the universe than me, and more complicated factors in play than any one of us can judge. So I have to reserve my concerns, and look to God, who alone can understand such things.

Of course, more to the point, they don't seem bad to your omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent Christian God. Given His own Divine reasons.

We don't know, do we? We don't know what reasons God can have, and we don't have the capacity to judge the variables involved. So we're stuck: unless we're wiling to put some faith in what God has revealed about that.

What surprises -- astonishes -- me is that millions around the globe are still able to reconcile those links above with a God said to be loving, just and merciful.

But that reflects the same mistake you're indicting in Christians. You're saying that these things "look" unjust to you, so they must be; but Christians are not claiming to have so much knowledge as you are claiming. They're saying, "Even when we don't understand the reasons, that doesn't mean there are none; all it means is that we are small and fallible, and don't always know everything."

So it's the extraordinary hubris of the complainers against the humble faith of the believers. Which shall we believe?

But then I remind myself of the alternative: No God and all of these terrible things happen for absolutely no reason at all. Shit happens. It's just a mindless nature doing its thing.

Yes, that's the alternative. And it's a nasty one. For it presupposes that there CAN BE no answers at all for why things happen, and there's nobody who can even hear our complaint about that.

And don't forget, I truly do wish that somehow I could believe in the Christian God again. What with oblivion getting closer and closer.

What's your background, if you don't mind me asking?

If you do, feel free not to say. I'm not prying, and I'm not going to mock.

[iambiguous]

You seem to think that repeating a list of things that seem bad to you, but the reasons for which (assuming there are such) you don't claim to understand, is some kind of important thing to do.

They don't seem bad to you?

Seem? Well, where any of us stands, the world "seems" flat. Of course, it isn't. That's just an effect of our limited perspective. So "seeming" doesn't tell us anything.

You're actually comparing God making Earth round with God creating a planet where all of these things...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

...are reconciled with the belief that God is loving, just and merciful?

Again, sure, God is basically the closest you and others can get to anything resembling comfort and consolation in the face of all that ghastly devastation. And I have no illusions about yanking that rug out from under you. In part because I have absolutely nothing to offer by way of an alternative explanation. On the contrary, No God and it's all just the "brute facticity" embedded in an essentially meaningless world.

I look at those things, and they make me feel sad. But do I claim to know why they happen? No, of course not. I'm all too conscious of my own limitations. I know there are bigger things in the universe than me, and more complicated factors in play than any one of us can judge. So I have to reserve my concerns, and look to God, who alone can understand such things.

Come on, IC, that's ridiculous and you know it. Of course you know why they happen. Just read Genesis. God created Heaven and Earth and it was good. All you need do then is to accept that God has a reason for it. Right? That's the part that comforts and consoles you. Only for you it's not just a leap of faith or a wager. You know that God resides in Heaven.

But, again, I suspect that is not the case at all. After all, if it was, then you would link me to the video that you believe best demonstrates it. And aside from the videos, all you have is the Christian Bible itself, right?

Of course, more to the point, they don't seem bad to your omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent Christian God. Given His own Divine reasons.

We don't know, do we? We don't know what reasons God can have, and we don't have the capacity to judge the variables involved. So we're stuck: unless we're wiling to put some faith in what God has revealed about that.

Faith? But it's not just a leap of faith for you. Though, sure, even you don't know if this existing God really is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. You only know He does in fact reside in Heaven. Rabbi Kushner may be right, for all you know.

What surprises -- astonishes -- me is that millions around the globe are still able to reconcile those links above with a God said to be loving, just and merciful.

But that reflects the same mistake you're indicting in Christians. You're saying that these things "look" unjust to you, so they must be; but Christians are not claiming to have so much knowledge as you are claiming. They're saying, "Even when we don't understand the reasons, that doesn't mean there are none; all it means is that we are small and fallible, and don't always know everything."

On the contrary, when it comes to just and unjust behavior, I believe that, as the man said, "in the absence of God all things are permitted". That's the bleak conclusion that one can reach in a Godless universe.

But then you and all of these folks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions

...insist that there is a God, the God. Their God. Your God. Then back to you noting that if they find their own One True Path it would be silly for them to give it up. Even though you also insist that if they don't eventually accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior their souls are lost. They'll be "left behind". Or, at any rate, millions of other Christians around the globe believe that.

Again, Christians call me an atheist, but when it comes to all the others Gods that others believe in, they become atheists too.

So it's the extraordinary hubris of the complainers against the humble faith of the believers. Which shall we believe?

No hubris from me. You know, being as fractured and fragmented as "I" am.

As for what we shall believe, how about this...

"This is what I believe in my head about God. And now, given the following evidence, I am going to demonstrate to you why you should believe the same thing."

Or, as they say in Missouri, "show me".

But then I remind myself of the alternative: No God and all of these terrible things happen for absolutely no reason at all. Shit happens. It's just a mindless nature doing its thing.

Yes, that's the alternative. And it's a nasty one. For it presupposes that there CAN BE no answers at all for why things happen, and there's nobody who can even hear our complaint about that.

Yep. No getting around that. But just yearning for an answer is not the same as insisting the answer lies in the Christian Bible; and that it's the right answer because it's the word of the Christian God.

Well, other than by way of a more or less blind leap of faith.

And don't forget, I truly do wish that somehow I could believe in the Christian God again. What with oblivion getting closer and closer.

What's your background, if you don't mind me asking?

If you do, feel free not to say. I'm not prying, and I'm not going to mock.

I was once a devout Protestant Christian. When I was a kid. Then, even after Song Be, I became a Unitarian. Then it all collapsed. Though here I am still wondering if it's possible to get back onto the path again. Doesn't look good though.

[attofishpi]

So in one way, they were behind you and I: you and I know what good and evil are. Adam and Eve would not have known that.

No, I very much doubt either of you do know what EVIL is where it comes to God.

[Immanuel Can]

You're actually comparing God making Earth round with God creating a planet where all of these things...
...are reconciled with the belief that God is loving, just and merciful?

No, I'm saying that appearances are often exceedingly deceptive to human beings. I'm saying that we're nowhere near having the kind of knowledge required for us to say that these things don't all reconcile in some way. So our objections are based on our own epistemic limitations, not on some known feature of the situation.

On the contrary, No God and it's all just the "brute facticity" embedded in an essentially meaningless world.

Quite so. And that leaves you...where?

Just read Genesis. God created Heaven and Earth and it was good.

Well, when you actually read the narrative you want me to read, then you'll find out about a thing called "the Fall," which explains what happened. But that's a very important missing piece in your summary.

...when it comes to just and unjust behavior, I believe that, as the man said, "in the absence of God all things are permitted".

The quotation goes, "If there is no God, all is permitted." And "the man" was Dostoevsky. And he was right.

Good thing that's not the universe we actually have.

I was once a devout Protestant Christian.

That's a huge label, encompassing everything from High Anglicanism to Quakers, from Pentecostals to Lutherans. Can you narrow it down for me, so I can have some sense of what you experienced?

When I was a kid. Then, even after Song Be, I became a Unitarian.

What is "Song Be"? I know what Unitarianism is. Is "Song Be" Vietnam?

Then it all collapsed.

How'd that happen?

Though here I am still wondering if it's possible to get back onto the path again. Doesn't look good though.

Fair enough. But I'm interested in hearing what the specifics were.

[promethean75]

(post discontinued)