woke

[Harbal]

Nothing and no one should be, or deserves to be, worshipped.

"Should," Harbal?

That's a word of moral evaluation. "I should" means "I ought to," which means "I owe it (to somebody or something) to do X," or "not to do X." It implies one has a duty to something.

What is the origin of this "should"? Who says "nothing should be worshipped"?

Could it be "the self"?

Yes, a duty to oneself, in order to preserve one's self respect.

[Gary Childress]

But we all pick our paths.

Do we, IC? Did you choose to be where you are? Did I choose to be where I am? How much choice does any of us have? When in doubt, blame the victim. Christians seem to be good at that. It makes me wonder how compassionate "Christians" really are.

[Immanuel Can]

Nothing and no one should be, or deserves to be, worshipped.

"Should," Harbal?

That's a word of moral evaluation. "I should" means "I ought to," which means "I owe it (to somebody or something) to do X," or "not to do X." It implies one has a duty to something.

What is the origin of this "should"? Who says "nothing should be worshipped"?

Could it be "the self"?

Yes, a duty to oneself, in order to preserve one's self respect.

Well, "self" is a contingent entity. So one is worshipping a very limited, dying creature, and one that is not very good at making himself happy, let alone at doing "the right thing," whatever that might be.

But how can the "self" cause a "should"? How can one know what one owes to the self, if it's anything at all? Does the warm feeling of self-satisfaction or self-respect prove that one has done the right thing? Or does all it indicate that one has, for the moment, pacified the unbelievably demanding ego of the self, by simply giving in to its unrelenting demands?

Has one done anything that is, in any durable sense, worthy of respect?

So one gets to "respect" something wholly undeserving of respect. And yes, one can worship that...but...

[Gary Childress]

Here's something we can explore. It would involve some incredibly honest answers:

If God said to you, "kill Gary". Would you do it, IC? And if you asked God, "why" and God refused to give you a reason, would you accept the command regardless? I'd like to hear what you would do in such a situation.

[Immanuel Can]

But we all pick our paths.

Do we, IC? Did you choose to be where you are? Did I choose to be where I am? How much choice does any of us have?

You're having your choice right now, Gary.

But you do have a point: the "self" didn't make you who you are, can't prevent you from dying, can't ground a moral claim, and can't make you happy. So it seems you have no choice, so long as "self" is the only object you can conceive of worshipping. It's not a very good god. It demands lots, but never delivers anything.

I don't share your one-sided assessment of what life is, though, Gary. I understand you may enjoy the hyperbole, but I'm pretty sure you know it's not true either. For you, the sun still comes up in the morning. Food still tastes good. Sleep is still sweet. And you still have hopes for happiness, even if you're sick of feeling them deferred. The world's not Heaven, to be sure; but it's not a Hell-hole either. And I think you know that.

Who is responsible for what the world is? Well, the good bits come from God. As for the rest, it's your best indication that the world is out of step with God, and needs some help.

[Harbal]

"Should," Harbal?

That's a word of moral evaluation. "I should" means "I ought to," which means "I owe it (to somebody or something) to do X," or "not to do X." It implies one has a duty to something.

What is the origin of this "should"? Who says "nothing should be worshipped"?

Could it be "the self"?

Yes, a duty to oneself, in order to preserve one's self respect.

Well, "self" is a contingent entity. So one is worshipping a very limited, dying creature, and one that is not very good at making himself happy, let alone at doing "the right thing," whatever that might be.

But how can the "self" cause a "should"? How can one know what one owes to the self, if it's anything at all? Does the warm feeling of self-satisfaction or self-respect prove that one has done the right thing? Or does all it indicate that one has, for the moment, pacified the unbelievably demanding ego of the self, by simply giving in to its unrelenting demands?

Has one done anything that is, in any durable sense, worthy of respect?

So one gets to "respect" something wholly undeserving of respect. And yes, one can worship that...but...

You do like to make a song and dance, IC.

[Immanuel Can]

Here's something we can explore. It would involve some incredibly honest answers:

If God said to you, "kill Gary". Would you do it, IC? And if you asked God, "why" and God refused to give you a reason, would you accept the command regardless? I'd like to hear what you would do in such a situation.

Let's get honest, then.

How would this "saying" be conveyed? Do you mean if God appeared in a vision? Or if the Bible said, "Thou shalt kill Gary?" Or do you mean that some ecclesiastical poser told me that God had told him, "We need to kill Gary?"

And can you conceive of a scenario in which the God who made Gary would want me to kill Gary?

I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out the terms of your hypothetical.

[Immanuel Can]

You do like to make a song and dance, IC.

I like philosophy. And philosophy requires us to do some thinking and exploring of ideas together, not merely to shoot out short aphorisms or wry one-liners, as much fun as those might be.

[Harbal]

You do like to make a song and dance, IC.

I like philosophy. And philosophy requires us to do some thinking and exploring of ideas together, not merely to shoot out short aphorisms or wry one-liners, as much fun as those might be.

You do it your way, and I'll do it mine.

[Gary Childress]

Here's something we can explore. It would involve some incredibly honest answers:

If God said to you, "kill Gary". Would you do it, IC? And if you asked God, "why" and God refused to give you a reason, would you accept the command regardless? I'd like to hear what you would do in such a situation.

Let's get honest, then.

How would this "saying" be conveyed? Do you mean if God appeared in a vision? Or if the Bible said, "Thou shalt kill Gary?" Or do you mean that some ecclesiastical poser told me that God had told him, "We need to kill Gary?"

And can you conceive of a scenario in which the God who made Gary would want me to kill Gary?

I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out the terms of your hypothetical.

Well, apparently God did something similar to Abraham. I'm not privy to how God gets in touch with others, so I couldn't tell you how that happens. But apparently, Abraham was a believer and was about to sacrifice his own son. For sake of argument, let's say God miraculously materialized in front of you in such a way that you would have no doubt it was God. Would you kill me for no apparent reason, other than it was God's will?

[Immanuel Can]

You do like to make a song and dance, IC.

I like philosophy. And philosophy requires us to do some thinking and exploring of ideas together, not merely to shoot out short aphorisms or wry one-liners, as much fun as those might be.

You do it your way, and I'll do it mine.

Carry on, then.

[Immanuel Can]

Here's something we can explore. It would involve some incredibly honest answers:

If God said to you, "kill Gary". Would you do it, IC? And if you asked God, "why" and God refused to give you a reason, would you accept the command regardless? I'd like to hear what you would do in such a situation.

Let's get honest, then.

How would this "saying" be conveyed? Do you mean if God appeared in a vision? Or if the Bible said, "Thou shalt kill Gary?" Or do you mean that some ecclesiastical poser told me that God had told him, "We need to kill Gary?"

And can you conceive of a scenario in which the God who made Gary would want me to kill Gary?

I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out the terms of your hypothetical.

Well, apparently God did something similar to Abraham.

Except He didn't. Isaac lived, as you must surely recall, if you know the story.

For sake of argument, let's say God miraculously materialized in front of you in such a way that you would have no doubt it was God. Would you kill me for no apparent reason, other than it was God's will?

Well, hy would the God who commanded, "Thou shalt not murder," ask me to murder Gary?

I guess I'm not getting the gist of your hypothetical. I'm not sure it's even something reasonable to suppose.

[Harbal]

Carry on, then.

I will, and knowing I have your blessing means a lot to me.

[Gary Childress]

Let's get honest, then.

How would this "saying" be conveyed? Do you mean if God appeared in a vision? Or if the Bible said, "Thou shalt kill Gary?" Or do you mean that some ecclesiastical poser told me that God had told him, "We need to kill Gary?"

And can you conceive of a scenario in which the God who made Gary would want me to kill Gary?

I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out the terms of your hypothetical.

Well, apparently God did something similar to Abraham.

Except He didn't. Isaac lived, as you must surely recall, if you know the story.

For sake of argument, let's say God miraculously materialized in front of you in such a way that you would have no doubt it was God. Would you kill me for no apparent reason, other than it was God's will?

Well, hy would the God who commanded, "Thou shalt not murder," ask me to murder Gary?

I guess I'm not getting the gist of your hypothetical. I'm not sure it's even something reasonable to suppose.

What difference does any of that make? Let's say it's a command from God to the best of your reckoning. Would you obey such a command from God if it was given or would you not? It's just a "yes" or "no" question. Either you would or you wouldn't. I'm just curious about what you would do. Just curiosity on my part. Abraham presumably would have gone through with it.

[Immanuel Can]

Well, apparently God did something similar to Abraham.

Except He didn't. Isaac lived, as you must surely recall, if you know the story.

For sake of argument, let's say God miraculously materialized in front of you in such a way that you would have no doubt it was God. Would you kill me for no apparent reason, other than it was God's will?

Well, hy would the God who commanded, "Thou shalt not murder," ask me to murder Gary?

I guess I'm not getting the gist of your hypothetical. I'm not sure it's even something reasonable to suppose.

What difference does any of that make?

It made a big difference to Isaac, I'm certain.

Let's say it's a command from God to the best of your reckoning. Would you obey such a command from God if it was given or would you not? It's just a "yes" or "no" question.

"It's just a yes or no question." Yes, I'm familiar with that line.

It means, "Don't question my assumptions; you're only allowed to accept them. And if you don't, I'll accuse you of being evasive."

I'm just wondering how that scenario makes any sense. Why would the God who created you want you dead, Gary? And why would He need me to do it? It seems to me that your very existence proves His intentions were otherwise.