Christianity

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seeds
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Re: Christianity

Post by seeds »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 12:59 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 6:52 am I need to "calm down", go up into the intellectual contraption stratosphere with him and exchange definitions and deductions...to communicate in a proper display of pedantry.
You seem to me to operate through a ‘neurosis’ similar to Seeds: all is ‘intellectual contraption’ as for Seeds it is an exalted but also fairytale-like fantasy about ‘souls’.
Well, well, well, this is certainly an interesting turn of events.

In just a few hours after making that comment about me in your exchange with iambiguous, you stated the following to Immanuel Con...
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:01 am But you must understand that I believe in a soul’s many lives. Not just one and done. In my model there is infinite time to work everything out. In yours, no time.
So then, my belief in the existence (and ultimate purpose) of the soul is a "...fairytale-like fantasy..." resulting from some kind of "...neurosis...," while, on the other hand, your belief in the existence of the soul...

(which is obviously rooted in Eastern religious dogma)

...is far less dubious and based on sound reasoning.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Now, we're all friends here, so after Dr. Smith gives the appropriate response to your hypocrisy...

Image

...i'm willing to look past it in order to ask you the following question:

After your model of the soul has had the necessary amount of time to "...work everything out..."...

(take a billion years if necessary, or even a trillion years, neither of which represent even a grain of sand when compared to eternity)

...then what?

In other words, after working everything out, what logical, useful, and (hopefully) "ever-growing and ever-evolving" purpose do you imagine a soul (a "mind") might possibly have that could keep it from stagnating during the remainder of its eternal existence?
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tillingborn
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Re: Christianity

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 3:46 pm
tillingborn wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:18 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:35 pmYou're a quarter right in your claim but also three quarters wrong.
I'm four quarters right: Nagel does not deny evolution.
I've covered this. I'm not bothering to cover it again for you. Sorry.
All you did is demonstrate that you are complicit in a lie perpetrated by dishonest creationists. By labelling anyone who rejects your fable of Adam and Eve an "Evolutionist", you are attributing to them beliefs that not only they don't hold, but nobody on the planet holds. So it shows a complete lack of self awareness that you, without irony, suggest someone else is Cathy Newman.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

seeds wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:38 am So then, my belief in the existence (and ultimate purpose) of the soul is a "...fairytale-like fantasy..." resulting from some kind of "...neurosis...," while, on the other hand, your belief in the existence of the soul...
That souls exist, that life continues — these issues do not enter into consideration when the issues are those I have been discussing.

The soul of a Japanese may be of the same substance or path as say a Finn, but the differences and distinctions of terrestrial being have their own rules. Our bodies, the land we live in, our culture, language, all of this, is our terrestrial world.

You seem to have a New Age Philosophy taken to extremes. Resulting in a “fairytale-like fantasy.”
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

seeds wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:38 am In other words, after working everything out, what logical, useful, and (hopefully) "ever-growing and ever-evolving" purpose do you imagine a soul (a "mind") might possibly have that could keep it from stagnating during the remainder of its eternal existence?
Chess? Gardening? Crochet?
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:10 pm
That souls exist, that life continues — these issues do not enter into consideration when the issues are those I have been discussing.

The soul of a Japanese may be of the same substance or path as say a Finn, but the differences and distinctions of terrestrial being have their own rules. Our bodies, the land we live in, our culture, language, all of this, is our terrestrial world.

You seem to have a New Age Philosophy taken to extremes. Resulting in a “fairytale-like fantasy.”
I see that being taken seriously has become unimportant to you, for some reason.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Harbal wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:18 pm I see that being taken seriously has become unimportant to you, for some reason.
Above I should have included the NYTs puzzle and cooking sections.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

From Tomislav Sunic's Homo Americanus: Child of the Postmodern Age (2007)
Americanism and its accompanying dogma of liberalism came to be viewed, after the breakdown of communism, as a safe exit which enabled many leftist thinkers and authors to save face yet help them continue with the same sloganeering about egalitarianism and global humanity, albeit in a more respectable and non-violent Americanized fashion. An external ritual had to be changed too. At some recent point in history European and American left leaning intellectuals made pilgrimages to Havana and to Moscow. After the Cold War, with the beginning of postmodernity, it became mandatory, short of ruining one's career, to travel to the newly found super-egos: Tel Aviv andNew York.

However much communism maybe dead as a programmatic religion, its verbal substratum in Americanism is much alive, not just among left-leaning intellectuals but even among those Americans professing conservative beliefs. One must dismiss the communist signifiers, and look instead into the signified. Inthe USA there are surprisingly many academics who seriously believe in the veracity of egalitarian and pan-racial ideas, although they package these ideas in humanitarian or Christian ecumenical words. Red star and hammer and sickle are dated referents in America; what is crucial is the usage of new symbols conveying the same meaning, but in a disarming and more sentimental way. In order to enforce its paleo-communist goals, Americanism requires a different social setting than the one the Bolsheviks used in Russia at the beginning of the 20th century. Therefore, words and sentence structures conveying communistic messages in America must be framed by different signifiers.

Modern public discourse in the USA is also teeming with Soviet-style messages such as “ethnic sensitivity training,” “political correctness,” “affirmative action,” and “holocaust studies.” This is best observed in American higher education which, over the last thirty years, has transformed itself into places of higher commissariats of political correctness which consist of “committees on preventing racial perjuries,” “ethnic diversity training programs,” and in which racial awareness courses have become mandatory for the faculty staff and students. No longer are professors required to demonstrate skills in their subject matters; instead, they must parade with sentimental and self-deprecatory statements which, as a rule, denigrate European cultural heritage. What strikes the eyes is that these new verbal constructs and neologisms resemble retarded and well masked carbon copies of the old Communist meta-language going back to the 50s and 60s, and which was once obligatorily parroted in different dialects by communized subjects all over Eastern Europe and Russia. These refurbished ritual utterances are now being mouthed by Homo americanus.
Consistently I mention that we must make efforts to see and understand Our Present. We must understand the 'causal chain' of events that have brought us to where we are. This involves both historical and cultural analysis (the external) and penetrating self-analysis (the internal).

Penetrating self-analysis, here on this forum and thread, is quite lacking. In my lexicon of meanings the term 'victim' is the one I use to describe the postmodern man who has been (is being) intensely Americanized in the sense that Sunic puts it. To the degree it has you in its grasp, and the degree to which you *embrace* it (are fucked by it and fuck others with it) is the degree to which you are a victim.

Do I expect, say, Iambiguous or Seeds (recent interlocutors) to grasp the relevance of what I am proposing as a necessary first step? Seeds swoons in psychedelic visions; Iambiguous dismisses all necessary preliminary thinking and establishing definitions to that of getting hoisted on intellectual skyhook contraptions. Both of these men seem possessed by 'hysterical' modes of expression of their ideas as well as by ideas borne out of hysterical perception. My assertion: all of this crap needs to be cut through. But here is the weird thing, according to my view: you must spend 90% of your time confronting the sort of 'constructs' that Sunic alludes to in these paragraphs.

My terms that these have been 'installed' and that people 'wed' them to their personalities -- this is what has to be examined.

Especially virulent and even somewhat resourceful is Master Iambiguous who has worked out a set of nomenclature to cast ironic shadows on those who demonstrate that they wish to examine things philosophically. Based on my observation, and those Iambiguous can himself *wiggle* extraordinarily within his non-committal terminologies, Iambiguous is a nice example of a Postmodern Man captured in Americanism. In that is his metaphysical ground. In that is his furious emotionalized defenses of egalitarian-progressive principles, and in that the 'links' to coercive Marxism and its trickery is to be uncovered and hauled out into the light for examination.

Strangely, but yet it makes sense, it is next-to-impossible to dialogue with men like Seeds and Iambiguous. The first thing you run into is the 'Construct' of their own selves. It could be a small, tight edifice or a somewhat more towering one, but it is one nonetheless and it is often established through impenetrability. No discussion about it and no discussion critical of its tenets is even possible according to their view.

It is this impenetrability' that in my view needs to be questioned and examined.

But let the IMAGES be posted! Let the GIANT POINT EXCLAMATIONS be seen!

Normal large huge! Whatever it takes! This is postmodern theatre after all!
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:51 am ...labelling anyone who rejects your fable of Adam and Eve an "Evolutionist"...
This, I have never done.

An "Evolutionist" is not every denier of Creation, it's an indoctrinated adherent of the Darwinian narrative. There are other origin stories, like the Hindu or various polytheistic narratives, for example, and they are not Evolutionists.
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phyllo
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Re: Christianity

Post by phyllo »

Modern public discourse in the USA is also teeming with Soviet-style messages such as “ethnic sensitivity training,” “political correctness,” “affirmative action,” and “holocaust studies.” This is best observed in American higher education which, over the last thirty years, has transformed itself into places of higher commissariats of political correctness which consist of “committees on preventing racial perjuries,” “ethnic diversity training programs,” and in which racial awareness courses have become mandatory for the faculty staff and students. No longer are professors required to demonstrate skills in their subject matters; instead, they must parade with sentimental and self-deprecatory statements which, as a rule, denigrate European cultural heritage. What strikes the eyes is that these new verbal constructs and neologisms resemble retarded and well masked carbon copies of the old Communist meta-language going back to the 50s and 60s, and which was once obligatorily parroted in different dialects by communized subjects all over Eastern Europe and Russia. These refurbished ritual utterances are now being mouthed by Homo americanus.
Undoubtedly these committees, training programs, etc exist.

The question is : to what extent to they tell the truth and educate, to what extent do they tell a false narrative and manipulate?

Instead of a blanket acceptance or rejection, one would have to investigate their contents.

Unfortunately, political correctness says that kind of investigation and questioning is not permitted.
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iambiguous
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Re: Christianity

Post by iambiguous »

Lacewing wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:15 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:28 pm Now, he claims that watching the videos will provide someone with all the proof that he or she needs to, in turn, know that the Christian God resides in Heaven. Only he won't note the clip in the videos that sealed the deal for him.

Though, sure, maybe he will for you.
He's not going to be honestly responsible for anything he says to anyone. He can't... because it's all a bunch of nonsense, and he doesn't have the courage to face that. He is in unconditional unrelenting service to himself.

Yes, it is disappointing (and inexcusable) that he doesn't follow-through on his claims, but he has unknowingly done a great job of demonstrating the falseness and nonsense in Christianity, and that has been very helpful for evolving beyond it.
Indeed. That's why, as I have noted, my own interactions with him here are now basically just entertainment....something I do to amuse myself.

Though it's not something that I am particularly proud of, of course. In fact, in trying to rationalize it, I figure I do this because a part of me truly does want to believe in the Christian God as I once did...devoutly. That enormously comforting sense of being fully anchored to the One True Path. And on both sides of the grave. And then IC here claiming that, beyond a leap of faith, he can provide me with the proof I'll need to make it all come back again. He can bring Jesus Christ back into my life. He can make my belief that in a No God world human existence is essentially meaningless and purposeless...and ending in oblivion at any point in time...go away.

So, sure, IC...

"where's the beef"?
iambiguous wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:28 pmBut, really, if saving your soul is important to you...
Lacewing wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:15 pmMy soul is already divine like all souls and all of creation. I have no interest in delusional religions that try to claim they have the answer for 'saving' me from their imaginations.
I'm not all that familiar with your posting here so I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you believe mere mortals have a soul? Is it connected to a One True Path...God or No God?

If you do, how would you go about demonstrating it? A leap of faith?
Lacewing wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:15 pmThe most disrespectful and foolish way to live the gift of life is preaching about a future after death. Seriously, I don't know how there can be such stupidity to still be doing that. It's as if humankind was derailed to avoid living their lives with full awareness, and instead have been directed to focus on a supposed life after death, so that some kind of evil overlords can control and profit from their lives here and now. Why isn't anyone investigating this madness?
Well, living one's life "in full awareness" is understood by me on two levels. There is what we can truthfully ascertain about ourselves in the either/or world objectively, and there's my own "fractured and fragmented" self in the is/ought world.

In regard to moral and political and religious value judgments, my own "I" is [for better or worse] rooted existentially in dasein.
Last edited by iambiguous on Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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iambiguous
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Re: Christianity

Post by iambiguous »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:25 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:38 pm "How much suffering would have to be delivered to Hitler for it to be equivalent to the suffering He was responsible for?"

...to you first.

He was of Northern European stock if I'm not mistaken.

And, by the way, skin color aside, what is your take on Jews? Is there any "crisis" involving them that you have delved into theoretically?
Would you like me to answer your question as one raised within the fringes of (California) Reform Judaism? And as one who has delved with some seriousness into Jewish issues: history, ethics, Israel and general politics?

Or would you like me to discuss what others say about Judaism of a critical nature (and also about its 'brother' Christianity?)

Will you have UTTER FREAKOUTS when I say anything at all?

I am lifting myself up in your skyhook into conceptual-contraption upper-reaches even as I write!
Just as with race, what I would like is for you to discuss your thoughts and feelings about Jews theoretically, academically, analytically etc., and then take those conclusions out into the world that we live in today.

Imagining others who think like you do in a position of power in any particular community. What might Jews expect from them? How would you yourself interact with them? What would you approve of, what would you disapprove of...in terms of reproduction and education and employment and social interactions.

And, of course, hearing your own reaction to the polices of Hitler and the Nazis. Were there things they got right? Were there things they got wrong?

Then this part: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... ws-a-race/

Your views on that.
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iambiguous
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Re: Christianity

Post by iambiguous »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:01 am

But you must understand that I believe in a soul’s many lives. Not just one and done. In my model there is infinite time to work everything out.
In your "model"? An intellectual construct through and through might one suspect?

At least I do.

Or is this all tongue in cheek?

If not, on what basis -- philosophically, scientifically, phenomenologically, experimentally, experientially -- do you back this model up?
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:26 pm From Tomislav Sunic's Homo Americanus: Child of the Postmodern Age (2007)
Americanism and its accompanying dogma of liberalism came to be viewed, after the breakdown of communism, as a safe exit which enabled many leftist thinkers and authors to save face yet help them continue with the same sloganeering about egalitarianism and global humanity, albeit in a more respectable and non-violent Americanized fashion. An external ritual had to be changed too. At some recent point in history European and American left leaning intellectuals made pilgrimages to Havana and to Moscow. After the Cold War, with the beginning of postmodernity, it became mandatory, short of ruining one's career, to travel to the newly found super-egos: Tel Aviv andNew York.

However much communism maybe dead as a programmatic religion, its verbal substratum in Americanism is much alive, not just among left-leaning intellectuals but even among those Americans professing conservative beliefs. One must dismiss the communist signifiers, and look instead into the signified. Inthe USA there are surprisingly many academics who seriously believe in the veracity of egalitarian and pan-racial ideas, although they package these ideas in humanitarian or Christian ecumenical words. Red star and hammer and sickle are dated referents in America; what is crucial is the usage of new symbols conveying the same meaning, but in a disarming and more sentimental way. In order to enforce its paleo-communist goals, Americanism requires a different social setting than the one the Bolsheviks used in Russia at the beginning of the 20th century. Therefore, words and sentence structures conveying communistic messages in America must be framed by different signifiers.

Modern public discourse in the USA is also teeming with Soviet-style messages such as “ethnic sensitivity training,” “political correctness,” “affirmative action,” and “holocaust studies.” This is best observed in American higher education which, over the last thirty years, has transformed itself into places of higher commissariats of political correctness which consist of “committees on preventing racial perjuries,” “ethnic diversity training programs,” and in which racial awareness courses have become mandatory for the faculty staff and students. No longer are professors required to demonstrate skills in their subject matters; instead, they must parade with sentimental and self-deprecatory statements which, as a rule, denigrate European cultural heritage. What strikes the eyes is that these new verbal constructs and neologisms resemble retarded and well masked carbon copies of the old Communist meta-language going back to the 50s and 60s, and which was once obligatorily parroted in different dialects by communized subjects all over Eastern Europe and Russia. These refurbished ritual utterances are now being mouthed by Homo americanus.
Consistently I mention that we must make efforts to see and understand Our Present. We must understand the 'causal chain' of events that have brought us to where we are. This involves both historical and cultural analysis (the external) and penetrating self-analysis (the internal).

Penetrating self-analysis, here on this forum and thread, is quite lacking. In my lexicon of meanings the term 'victim' is the one I use to describe the postmodern man who has been (is being) intensely Americanized in the sense that Sunic puts it. To the degree it has you in its grasp, and the degree to which you *embrace* it (are fucked by it and fuck others with it) is the degree to which you are a victim.

Do I expect, say, Iambiguous or Seeds (recent interlocutors) to grasp the relevance of what I am proposing as a necessary first step? Seeds swoons in psychedelic visions; Iambiguous dismisses all necessary preliminary thinking and establishing definitions to that of getting hoisted on intellectual skyhook contraptions. Both of these men seem possessed by 'hysterical' modes of expression of their ideas as well as by ideas borne out of hysterical perception. My assertion: all of this crap needs to be cut through. But here is the weird thing, according to my view: you must spend 90% of your time confronting the sort of 'constructs' that Sunic alludes to in these paragraphs.

My terms that these have been 'installed' and that people 'wed' them to their personalities -- this is what has to be examined.

Especially virulent and even somewhat resourceful is Master Iambiguous who has worked out a set of nomenclature to cast ironic shadows on those who demonstrate that they wish to examine things philosophically. Based on my observation, and those Iambiguous can himself *wiggle* extraordinarily within his non-committal terminologies, Iambiguous is a nice example of a Postmodern Man captured in Americanism. In that is his metaphysical ground. In that is his furious emotionalized defenses of egalitarian-progressive principles, and in that the 'links' to coercive Marxism and its trickery is to be uncovered and hauled out into the light for examination.

Strangely, but yet it makes sense, it is next-to-impossible to dialogue with men like Seeds and Iambiguous. The first thing you run into is the 'Construct' of their own selves. It could be a small, tight edifice or a somewhat more towering one, but it is one nonetheless and it is often established through impenetrability. No discussion about it and no discussion critical of its tenets is even possible according to their view.

It is this impenetrability' that in my view needs to be questioned and examined.

But let the IMAGES be posted! Let the GIANT POINT EXCLAMATIONS be seen!

Normal large huge! Whatever it takes! This is postmodern theatre after all!
Seeds and Iamb are, like everybody else , subjects of their own ideas
and affects. It's a sad fact that we creatures of time can't completely penetrate each others' subjectivity. True we can share experiences that affect us , such as making love, mutual pleasure in a work of art, in the sharing of extreme danger, or the sharing of extreme affections. Poetic language is share-able, but explicit language such as philosophy is not the medium that enables advanced sharing.

Some of the idioms of Christianity seem to ring true to mutual affect: pietas, the virgin and child.
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

iambiguous wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:54 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:28 pmBut, really, if saving your soul is important to you...
Lacewing wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:15 pmMy soul is already divine like all souls and all of creation. I have no interest in delusional religions that try to claim they have the answer for 'saving' me from their imaginations.
I'm not all that familiar with your posting here so I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you believe mere mortals have a soul? Is it connected to a One True Path...God or No God?
No, I don't believe in a soul. I was just repeating that terminology to make a point that I think all is already divine.
iambiguous wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:54 pm
Lacewing wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:15 pmThe most disrespectful and foolish way to live the gift of life is preaching about a future after death. Seriously, I don't know how there can be such stupidity to still be doing that. It's as if humankind was derailed to avoid living their lives with full awareness, and instead have been directed to focus on a supposed life after death, so that some kind of evil overlords can control and profit from their lives here and now. Why isn't anyone investigating this madness?
Well, living one's life "in full awareness" is understood by me on two levels. There is what we can truthfully ascertain about ourselves in the either/or world objectively, and there's my own "fractured and fragmented" self in the is/ought world.
I was referring to the kind of innate awareness that's capable/accessible when it hasn't been programmed over with limited, inflexible belief structures.
seeds
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Re: Christianity

Post by seeds »

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