Christianity

[Lacewing]

Now, he claims that watching the videos will provide someone with all the proof that he or she needs to, in turn, know that the Christian God resides in Heaven. Only he won't note the clip in the videos that sealed the deal for him.

Though, sure, maybe he will for you.

He's not going to be honestly responsible for anything he says to anyone. He can't... because it's all a bunch of nonsense, and he doesn't have the courage to face that. He is in unconditional unrelenting service to himself.

Yes, it is disappointing (and inexcusable) that he doesn't follow-through on his claims, but he has unknowingly done a great job of demonstrating the falseness and nonsense in Christianity, and that has been very helpful for evolving beyond it.

But, really, if saving your soul is important to you...

I will applaud you if you ever get the responses you've asked for.

My soul is already divine like all souls and all of creation. I have no interest in delusional religions that try to claim they have the answer for 'saving' me from their imaginations.

The most disrespectful and foolish way to live the gift of life is preaching about a future after death. Seriously, I don't know how there can be such stupidity to still be doing that. It's as if humankind was derailed to avoid living their lives with full awareness, and instead have been directed to focus on a supposed life after death, so that some kind of evil overlords can control and profit from their lives here and now. Why isn't anyone investigating this madness?

[Alexis Jacobi]

"How much suffering would have to be delivered to Hitler for it to be equivalent to the suffering He was responsible for?"

...to you first.

He was of Northern European stock if I'm not mistaken.

And, by the way, skin color aside, what is your take on Jews? Is there any "crisis" involving them that you have delved into theoretically?

Would you like me to answer your question as one raised within the fringes of (California) Reform Judaism? And as one who has delved with some seriousness into Jewish issues: history, ethics, Israel and general politics?

Or would you like me to discuss what others say about Judaism of a critical nature (and also about its 'brother' Christianity?)

Will you have UTTER FREAKOUTS when I say anything at all?

I am lifting myself up in your skyhook into conceptual-contraption upper-reaches even as I write!

[promethean75]

"My soul is already divine like all souls and all of creation."

I think there would also be levels of divinity if this were the case, becuz i see no trace of anything truly equal in nature, at all. there is the ontological impossiblity of it - the only fundamental quality all things share is their belonging to substance, while all other qualites like physical attributes, functions, etc., that two things may share, are contingent. not in the way of being 'undeternined', but in the way of not being necessary, e.g., u could remove any single thing from the universe right now and it would continue existing.

but concerning the 'soul' if be there such a thing, it would be colored and fashioned by its experiences, its struggles, sacrifices, victories, all that shit. and since that shit exists in innumerable varities and ways for all people, equality in that respect is then inconceivable. like physical beings, souls would also be unequal.

but we're already off into a language game anyway when we talk about this stuff. see we suspect that the existence and experience of a soul would have to be phenomenologically similar in nature to the existence and experience of material beings, or what we say won't make any sense. an excellent example of one such confusion we fall into would be the phrase 'disembodied consciousness'. I'm not able to even imagine what that means becuz what i understand to be 'consciousness' is something that happens to an intelligent animal with a body and sensory organs that experiences a physical environment somewhere.

take away these factors, and u have a 'consciousness' that is nothing at all like mine, and I'm not able to speak about it or on its behalf. see whatum sayin?

Anyway it'd be like swami's stuff cept there would be no main god boss, justa buncha life forms (physical, immaterial, what have u) hanging out in the universe forever.

So the 'soul' might be a type of existence that comes after and is the continuation of a particular person... or it might be a different species of being altogether, not originating in the conception of a human being or the continuation of a human being after physical death. Like another kind of animal.

In the former case, cool. The latter case, damn. That means there is a spirit world but we're a kind of mortal animal that only gets a material existence... and only one short one, at that.

Wait a minute this is a pretty lame fuckin deal I never even thought about it. Like it could be even worse than we thought: not only are u mortal, but there IS a spirit realm and U won't get ANY of it. AHAHAHA.

[promethean75]

if we have case #2, then the next best thing we humans could wish for would be to form a union with the spirit world, and, if possible, to become possessed by a spirit so that we have the most intimate contact we can ever have with what for us is the closest thing we can find to the transcendental... contact with something extra mundane. in other words, if u got any ghosts or angels or demons paying any attention to u, u better be glad.

in fact, when yumatzu hirukuta asked the master what to do when possessed by a spirit, the master mediated on the question for three days, opened his eyes and said let it ride

[Dubious]

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Thus an unjust act by god himself.

That cannot be what justice is.

It's not! That's why the Jesus story is such a loathsome, disgusting vulgar piece of crap...something only humans can make up and brain-dead idiots believe.

[Lacewing]

"My soul is already divine like all souls and all of creation."

I think there would also be levels of divinity if this were the case, becuz i see no trace of anything truly equal in nature, at all.

I see what you're saying. Levels are different than diversity, though. All can be of one at a very basic level... with none being more of the one than any other, right?

but concerning the 'soul' if be there such a thing...

Agreed. I'm just using words that get as close to describing a concept as I can. A better word might be essence, as soul indicates something separate that goes on, and I don't really believe that. I think it makes more sense that there's an essence that merges back into the whole, and may re-emerge (with indifference) in another way. Like waves in an ocean.

...it would be colored and fashioned by its experiences, its struggles, sacrifices, victories, all that shit. and since that shit exists in innumerable varities and ways for all people, equality in that respect is then inconceivable. like physical beings, souls would also be unequal.

It certainly seems that the manifestations are endless! Just like the countless manifestations in nature of every species and type. This is why the idea of a male god, orchestrated for man, seems so utterly ridiculous. It doesn't fit anything else we see. It's a convoluted tale based on limitation and separation and condemnation which elevates some human beings over others.

What does make sense (to me) is that the divine in human beings is the same divine as manifested through all things... countless expressions and energies and dances and songs in a continually unfolding display of artwork creating more artwork.

but we're already off into a language game anyway when we talk about this stuff

Yes. Perhaps it's like early man trying to describe a crescent moon they see in the sky with the few words in their vocabulary. There's no understanding (from his position) of the extent of qualities and effects of such a thing.

take away these factors, and u have a 'consciousness' that is nothing at all like mine, and I'm not able to speak about it or on its behalf. see whatum sayin?

Totally!

That means there is a spirit world but we're a kind of mortal animal that only gets a material existence... and only one short one, at that.

My impression is that the human reality is very 'dense' -- with it's dependence on physicality. But there could be ways of perceiving and experiencing that neither require the physical vehicle nor the human ego. Again, that's another reason why human religious stories seem so limiting to me. They are born from very limited notions which are applied onto all else. And it's so backwards because such stories are actually dismissing awareness of vast and free SPIRIT (throughout all) in preference of a prescribed and controlling, limited model. That's what I mean when I suggest that people make this idea of 'god' very small!! In some ways, religion is the enemy of spirit!

I wonder why people don't think in much, much broader terms... beyond the clearly questionable ideas that have been spoon-fed throughout various cultures? The indoctrination goes too far by essentially saying, "Don't think for yourself... think this way!"

[iambiguous]

"My soul is already divine like all souls and all of creation."

I think there would also be levels of divinity if this were the case, becuz i see no trace of anything truly equal in nature, at all. there is the ontological impossiblity of it - the only fundamental quality all things share is their belonging to substance, while all other qualites like physical attributes, functions, etc., that two things may share, are contingent. not in the way of being 'undeternined', but in the way of not being necessary, e.g., u could remove any single thing from the universe right now and it would continue existing.

but concerning the 'soul' if be there such a thing, it would be colored and fashioned by its experiences, its struggles, sacrifices, victories, all that shit. and since that shit exists in innumerable varities and ways for all people, equality in that respect is then inconceivable. like physical beings, souls would also be unequal.

but we're already off into a language game anyway when we talk about this stuff. see we suspect that the existence and experience of a soul would have to be phenomenologically similar in nature to the existence and experience of material beings, or what we say won't make any sense. an excellent example of one such confusion we fall into would be the phrase 'disembodied consciousness'. I'm not able to even imagine what that means becuz what i understand to be 'consciousness' is something that happens to an intelligent animal with a body and sensory organs that experiences a physical environment somewhere.

take away these factors, and u have a 'consciousness' that is nothing at all like mine, and I'm not able to speak about it or on its behalf. see whatum sayin?

Anyway it'd be like swami's stuff cept there would be no main god boss, justa buncha life forms (physical, immaterial, what have u) hanging out in the universe forever.

So the 'soul' might be a type of existence that comes after and is the continuation of a particular person... or it might be a different species of being altogether, not originating in the conception of a human being or the continuation of a human being after physical death. Like another kind of animal.

In the former case, cool. The latter case, damn. That means there is a spirit world but we're a kind of mortal animal that only gets a material existence... and only one short one, at that.

Wait a minute this is a pretty lame fuckin deal I never even thought about it. Like it could be even worse than we thought: not only are u mortal, but there IS a spirit realm and U won't get ANY of it. AHAHAHA.

Souls are tricky here for me. We die, get buried and eventually our physical body disintegrates. Or it goes up in smoke and we're left with ashes. Or a shark eats us and we come out the other end as shark shit.

But when Hell is depicted -- presto! -- the damned have their bodies back again. And they would have to right? We need bodies in order to feel pain. How does a soul writhe in agony?

Same thing with souls in Heaven. You die and your soul is reunited with all the souls of your dead loved ones. But how exactly is that experienced without a body?

Any Christians here care to speculate?

[promethean75]

okay so the literal existence of this christian hell is absurd for its own reasons, so one might place some symbolic and/or metaphorical meaning to idea of 'eternal damnation' or damnation for any length of time for that matter, as the effect of some kind of karma system.

if there is no literal hell, and that whole 'how can a soul suffer without a body' problem is considered, we end up only being able to imagine that one lives again and again, as a material being, a life that will tend toward good fortune or absolute bollocks, depending on the karmic balance of that person.

how that system of karma works would be a mystery, and it wouldn't be as easy as to say if u stole some shit u come back as a person that gets robbed and loses everything.... or that if u give everything u have away, u win the lottery in your next life. There's gonna be way more to it.

[Immanuel Can]

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Thus an unjust act by god himself.

Is forgiveness "unjust"?

Ultimately, all sins are against God. We humans get all self-important about that, as if we are due certain things just by virtue of being a breathing biped. But it's not clear, absent God, we have any such due. What is clear is that to abuse on of God's creatures is a crime against the Creator. All crimes, ultimately, are against God.

And if the Creator graciously forgives our crimes, will you call Him unjust? Will you demand that he exact the full penalty due from you? Or will you reserve judgment for other people, and presume that God owes you a let-off?

You see, we all need mercy. I do. You do. And the thief on the cross did. But we can call for what we think is fair: mercy, or justice. And we'll get what we call for.

[Lacewing]

how that system of karma works would be a mystery, and it wouldn't be as easy as to say if u stole some shit u come back as a person that gets robbed and loses everything.... or that if u give everything u have away, u win the lottery in your next life. There's gonna be way more to it.

I agree. Someone might actually take on a hard life just to help evolve those who are abusive. It doesn't mean that the abused person was an abuser in another life, and that it's some sort of payback. There might be loving/helpful 'agreements'/arrangements that are made on a spiritual level. And not just for other people, but even to help ourselves.

Since I'm not so sure that time/existence is as linear as we think, I've meditated (as an adult) on sending encouragement and strength to myself as an abused kid. And it's true that I made it through those times surprisingly well. So maybe we transmit our energy throughout time and space (which may be no distance at all) in any 'direction', and the trick is to learn to do it with more awareness and more of the kind of energy we want to experience... rather than a bunch of subconscious fear and stuff.

[Alexis Jacobi]

And if the Creator graciously forgives our crimes, will you call Him unjust? Will you demand that he exact the full penalty due from you? Or will you reserve judgment for other people, and presume that God owes you a let-off?

You see, we all need mercy. I do. You do. And the thief on the cross did. But we can call for what we think is fair: mercy, or justice. And we'll get what we call for.

By the logic of the incident itself (the Story) the mercy should also have been extended to the unrepentant thief. He was more ‘afflicted’ and therefor even more mercy should have been given.

He asked for temporal mercy. Not afterworld mercy. Jesus had to accept his fate but he could have shazzamed both thieves down from the cross as a miracle, no?

That would have been an interesting twist.

Instead, what? Is he writhing in eternal hell?

But you must understand that I believe in a soul’s many lives. Not just one and done. In my model there is infinite time to work everything out. In yours, no time.

But we can call for what we think is fair: mercy, or justice. And we'll get what we call for.

Also absurd. What ‘law’ applies must operate independently of our temporal follies.

The god you picture is not the Just Judge but a vengeful figure.

[Immanuel Can]

And if the Creator graciously forgives our crimes, will you call Him unjust? Will you demand that he exact the full penalty due from you? Or will you reserve judgment for other people, and presume that God owes you a let-off?

You see, we all need mercy. I do. You do. And the thief on the cross did. But we can call for what we think is fair: mercy, or justice. And we'll get what we call for.

By the logic of the incident itself (the Story) the mercy should also have been extended to the unrepentant thief. He was more ‘afflicted’ and therefor even more mercy should have been given.

What gets mercy is not "affliction," which can come to anyone. It's repentance. As Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish." The second thief had no repentance, because he persisted in having his own way.

But you must understand that I believe in a soul’s many lives.

I know that you do.

But you contradict God on that subject, so I choose which I regard as plausible. And I consider in that, Who would really have reason to know.

[attofishpi]

But you must understand that I believe in a soul’s many lives. Not just one and done. In my model there is infinite time to work everything out. In yours, no time.

Interesting, finally someone in this thread IS showing some nouse. (apart from me of course )

I am a Christian that believes in reincarnation (apart from being told by the sage this is the case) - it makes more sense re any judgement as to where we progress.

[Dubious]

Passing strange that this life should be
Another loop to make things right.
I can't recall a prior me
Less perfect than I am tonight!

[attofishpi]

Passing strange that this life should be
Another loop to make things right.
I can't recall a prior me
Less perfect than I am tonight!

or.

Another wipe of
my previous life.
Why did I fail,
yet again,
to be an ageless, sage?
Where my knowledge
stays with me
until the end?
Perhaps a thousand,
years or more,
or wait!
What a great weight could be lifted,
this Sun should be stable,
a billion years or more,
certain the sages,
would have also gained,
access via another door.