Just a second...
"chuckle, chuckle, chuckle"
Okay, now I'm ready.
iambiguous wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:57 pmYou were not pointing out to Belinda above that this is what Nietzsche said. You were noting it is what you yourself believe about someone who does not believe there is an afterlife. After all, you're the one who connects it to the Christian God! You're the one who, as with many, many Christians, note that in the absence of God all things are permitted.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:14 pm Yeah, I was. Go back and check.
I did. That's why I noted what I did above. Now, how about you noting how it was only about Nietzsche and not about you. I mean, do you or do you not believe as a Christian, that if there is no Christian God, no Judgement Day, no afterlife, no immortality and salvation, that mere mortals on this side of the grave would end up rationalizing any and all behaviors?
Nietzsche was merely noting the consequences of a No God world for mere mortals on this side of the grave. The masters making life miserable for the slaves because they deserved to and the slaves forming liberal "welfare state" governments to fight back.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:14 pm No. I think that's unlikely. Like Nietzsche said, they're not courageous enough to be bravely bad. And being too public with their badness would surely cause them trouble with the "weak" types who continue to believe in morality even though the rationale for it is dead with God. That's how NIetzsche saw it.
So some people would continue to be good. And Nietzsche saw them as the fearful sheep. But some would be
ubermenschen, and those are the ones brave and "heroic" enough to seize Nietzsche's own logic, and do whatever they wanted to increase their own "power" and express their "life force."
And, once again, Mr. Wiggle, my point revolves around whether in regard
to the afterlife, you were noting your own frame of mind regarding it to Belinda -- i.e. that in a No God world, all behaviors on this side of the grave can be rationalized -- rather than the consequences of Nietzsche's No God world for mere mortals on this side of the grave.
And that's crucial because how we behave on this side of the grave according to Christians like you revolves precisely around their belief that if you behave badly -- Sin -- than you can get tossed in Hell. And
that becomes your afterlife for all of eternity.
And then the part where those like me ask you to provide actual evidence that this is true. Why your God and not one of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
And what of those who go to the grave never even having heard of Christ and Christianity...do they receive a "get out of Hell free" card?
And on and on regarding the points that those like me raise with you.
And then the chuckling part where you are haplessly/helplessly reduced down to quoting the Christian Bible to "prove" the Christian God does in fact [beyond a leap of faith that I for one can respect] exist. And then the truly hilarious part [for me] where you "explain" why you cannot provide that video clip/segment most effective in demonstrating that the Christian God does in fact reside in Heaven.
You won't even link me to the one video that it is in! Though I promise to watch it in its entirety and discuss it with you.
Plato, Descartes, Kant and others notwithstanding. Deontology is still a bust, right? There is still no APA equivalent of the Ten Commandments, is there?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:14 pm Secular ethics, as a discipline, is a total bust, if you ask your ethics to have a legitimative basis.
Exactly!! Why? Because secular ethics are derived from mere mortals and mere mortals are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Then the part revolving around dasein. Mere mortals can come into the world and be indoctrinated in any number of historical and cultural and personal contexts. Bringing into existence [morally and politically] One True Paths that might be derived from any one of these sets of convictions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
Right?
That's why Gods are invented, of course. One or another of Kant's "transcending" fonts. No God, no deontology. Then all the secular fonts embedded in political dogmas or in Nature.
And the bottom line in any community, whether as a result of courage or cunning is this: which behaviors are prescribed and which are proscribed. Whether you call this morality or something else.
It's only when the afterlife becomes part of the moral narrative and political agenda that whatever you call it is linked to Judgment Day. And tell me that isn't all about Divine morality. Just ask the folks living in theocracies. Morality can be "useful" and "truthful" in any number of historical, cultural and interpersonal contexts. On this side of the grave. On the other side, however, it always comes down to the One True Path. And on this thread, yours.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:14 pm Nietzsche just called it "power." For him, it had nothing to do with morality. And it was the
ubermenschen who alone had the courage to subvert and elude it all.
Back to Nietzsche on this side of the grave, eh? Nothing to say in regard to this...
"Morality can be 'useful' and 'truthful' in any number of historical, cultural and interpersonal contexts. On this side of the grave. On the other side, however, it always comes down to the One True Path. And on this thread, yours."
The part you were emphasizing to Belinda above. No Christian God, no afterlife.
Nietzsche doesn't connect the dots between duty and the afterlife. Unless you count eternal recurrence.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:14 pm It was a dumb theory, with a glaring mathematical fallacy entailed.
Let's just say that the gap between what he believed here and what he was actually able to demonstrate, well, you're quite familiar with that yourself aren't you?
But you do. And with burning in Hell for all the eternity literally on the line here, are you or are you not connecting those dots yourself? Is there an afterlife without Judgment Day? Is there a Judgment Day without the Christian God?
What about that, IC? If you argue that there is a duty among mere mortals to connect the dots between morality and immortality through the Christian God, isn't it crucial for you [in order to save souls] to offer indisputable evidence of His existence. What if some damned fool here takes the path to henry's Deist God instead?!!
...without an actual accumulation of hard evidence, most mere mortals do believe in an afterlife "in their head" -- a leap of faith, a wager -- that puts the burden of proof on atheists?!!!
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:14 pm The duty to show evidence is on both sides. But whereas the Theist can show some that at least indicatively warrants belief in God (watch the videos, if you doubt, or don't, if you're scared) the Atheist can show none.
Absolutely shameless!!!
I mean this is truly, truly pathetic. Hundreds of theists out there down through the ages all insisting that only their own One True Path provides you with access to immortality and salvation. You insist it's your God and have the gall to bring up the videos again!!! While refusing to provide just one clip/segment that would prompt members here to watch them.
In order to save their souls.
...without an actual accumulation of hard evidence, most mere mortals do believe in an afterlife "in their head" -- a leap of faith, a wager --
that puts the burden of proof on atheists?!!!
And even here, connecting the dots between an afterlife and the Christian God revolves entirely around automatically dismissing all of the One True Paths here of these folks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
What, that almost all of them do believe in an afterlife establishes that Christianity alone is the One True Path? They're not insisting instead it's their God and their denomination?
So? So, let me remind you again of what is at stake for mere mortals who choose the wrong God: the horrors of Hell. And it is the atheists who have the burden of proof here?!!!
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:58 amI've said this before, but I guess you couldn't understand. I'l make it as simple for you as I can.
The number of "answers" to any question does not argue for there being no right answer. It suggests, instead, that there are a lot of wrong answers. One may be right.
Absolutely shameless!!!
My point of course is that all the folks above claim in turn that their own God reflects
the One True Path. So, how can it not come down then "for all practical purposes" to those on these paths demonstrating to us -- with so much at stake on both sides of the grave! -- that, no, their God really is
the One True Path.
And that's when IC hits us with his Bible quotes and videos!
Now, the fact that he will not own up to being absolutely shameless here...? Sure, it could be a "condition" and beyond his control. It could be hard determinism. But, given free will, I can only speculate that it revolves more around the "psychology of objectivism". As with dattaswami and others here, he is so hopelessly indoctrinated [re others or himself] he is simply incapable of recognizing just much wiggling he is doing. And not just with me of course. Over and again, others point out how feckless he can be in these exchanges.
For example:
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:58 am There are an infinite number of wrong answers to "What is 2+2." "6" is wrong. So is "5,000.4," and all the numbers before and after, save one: "4".
Right. Like this has anything to do with the behaviors we choose on this side of the grave in order to attain an afterlife in Heaven. He simply aasserts here that 2 + 2 = the Christian God.
And how is
that not absolutely shameless?
Over and over and over again: I don't claim that God does not exist. I don't claim the Christian God does not exist. But you really do believe that both those who claim He does exist and those that insist "show me" are equally incumbent here...? What is the atheist required to do...scour the globe and search everywhere for Him? Investigate the Moon and all the planets? What if the Christian God resides at the center of the Sun? Or in some other far and distant quadrant of the universe? Not until every nook and cranny of the multiverse itself is searched can the atheist demonstrate that God does not exist. And even then, those like you would no doubt point out that He can make Himself invisible. It's in the videos.
Still, there's your own preferred methods:
1] quoting from the Christian Bible to prove the Christian God does exist
2] those videos
Only you lack the courage to note the clip/segment from the video that most establishes that in fact the Christian does reside in Heaven. Though I suspect it has nothing to do with courage...but with cunning. You're smart enough to know that this clip/segment does not in fact exist at all.
Or does it? Your call, Mr. Wiggle.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:58 am Oh? Are you an agnostic?
Yeah, going back to the gap between what "here and now" I know about the existence of existence itself and all that there is to be known about it....? Agnostic works for me. But my point revolves more around confronting "minds" like yours actually able to convince themselves that they are "just plain right" about their own One True Path. And in embarrassing them by noting that they offer us no hard evidence to back their convictions up..
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:58 am Done.
So what are you complaining about? God might exist, you now say. And you don't know He doesn't. So are you going to suppose He owes you a demonstration, or something? You don't know a whole bunch of things that exist. Heck, you don't even know me. What's the big surprise if, up to now, you've never had an experience of God, or don't know what the evidence is?
Again, getting back to what started this "entertaining" exchange. The part about an afterlife. The part where IC connects it to the Christian God. The part where he relentlessly wiggles out of actually demonstrating that He does in fact reside in Heaven. The part where instead he just shrugs here and tells us, "well, you admit that God might exist, so that should be enough for you when confronting the actual stakes involved in choosing the wrong God."
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:59 pmSo then the question becomes, what evidence will you accept? Because you're going to need some, for whichever position you take.
I've already noted an example that would work for me: I wake up tomorrow morning and not a single child anywhere around the globe is reported to have been abused in anyway whatsoever. And instead of 10,000 children dying every 24 hours around the globe from starvation or extreme poverty, none do for days and days on end. That might not demonstrate the existence of the Christian God, perhaps, but it would go a long way [for me] toward establishing a Divine explanation.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:58 am Ah. So you think that if God existed, he would owe you to give you the kind of world you expect or prefer? But you don't think God could ever have a sufficient reason for allowing any such thing as pain and suffering, even for a time? And you assume that God would be the only responsible agent in the universe, so that not only would no accidents befall anyone, but no one person could hurt any other person?
I'm just wondering why you think that such a universe suddenly appearing would go any distance toward suggesting the existence of God.
Look, you asked me what might convince me of His existence. I told you.
Whereas as your own rationalization for this...
...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages...
"Each day, 25,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, die from hunger and related causes. Some 854 million people worldwide are estimated to be undernourished, and high food prices may drive another 100 million into poverty and hunger." United Nations
...revolves around your own personal and private understanding of the Bible. Or is this too set straight in the videos? That and the only other thing the Ecclesiastics and their flocks of sheep can fall back on: God's "mysterious ways".
Note to others:
Suppose tomorrow
you woke up and discovered that "not a single child anywhere around the globe was reported to have been abused in anyway whatsoever. And that instead of 10,000 children dying every 24 hours around the globe from starvation or extreme poverty, none did for days and days on end".
Wouldn't
you be inclined to attribute that to your own God?
Note to IC:
So, what
would you yourself attribute it to?
