Christianity

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:39 pm I make no demand that you be impressed.
It's clear you're out to impress somebody. It might not be me. It might be somebody who is more easily taken in.
I have come from my unique position as 'a friend of Christianity'.
If we understand as true the claim that you have come as a "friend of Christianity," your position would not be "unique." Rather, it would be orthodox, and others would believe it, too. So that really doesn't make sense.
Admittedly, given my own ethnic link and my background *on the fringes of Reform Judaism*, and not having been raised in Christianity, my relationship to those questions is to say the least odd and complex. But I am not dishonest. I have put my cards on the table. I have explained what I am doing here and why.
Reformed Judaism is the least orthodox of the varieties of Judaism. To be "on the fringe" of that is to be as far out as a person can get, while still making any claim to Yiddishkeit.
...presenting the possibility that these narratives were concocted.
I don't see anything "unique" about the very first -- and most boring -- criticism of Judaism. I think we can dispense with it.

But it does make sense of the persistency of your error regarding Christianity.

If your own frame of reference is Judaism, that means that you are a "Jew" two ways: one is religious, and the other is biological. We might add in things like "culture," but in Judaism, those are essentially subcompartments of the religious. Cultural Judaism is totally infused with religiosity.

Okay, so that means a Jew is a Jew two ways: by belief (or practices, or as they call them, "observances") and by genetics. It is in this sense that an Atheist or a Satanist, even, can "be a Jew."

Interesting, though, that in even Reformed Judaism, a Messianic Jew cannot be regarded as a Jew (by 'orthodox' Jews) anymore. It seems that the religious takes over, even from the biological. He can wear a yarmule, live in Israel, dance Hava Nagila and eat latkes and lox for breakfast -- but he's no longer a Jew, allegedly. (Well, he's not a Jew until the Nazis come looking for him, at which time, he will be again. But I digress.)

The important point, though, is this: there are no genetic Christians. Sorry. There just aren't. Christianity is a religion of conversion. That means that if one does not believe it, one is not one, regardless of whether one grew up within the sound of churchbells or not. There is no "Christiankeit," no "Christian culture." This is why Christianity happily partakes of different cultures...it has no such cultural commitments as Judaism has.

In short, your mistake is to apply your own (Jewish) frame of reference in an attempt to understand something that is not like Jewishness. And I can see now why you don't think you have to define Christianity: because one can define "Jewish" many ways, and if one definition (cultural, linguistic, religious, genetic) doesn't stick, one of the others will, whenever you wish to speak generally and vaguely of "the Jews."

But Christianity is 100% belief, and 0% "culture" or genetics or language. That's what you need to understand.
Call this effort at seeing straight what you will. I am not seeking anything fancy though. You have tried to say, for the longest time, that I do not understand what Christianity is. I leave you to make any characterization as you wish.
Well, I'm helping you out here.

If I wanted to know about fringe Reformist Judaism, I could ask you. And if you want to understand what Christianity is, you can ask me. But what neither of us can do is simply make up our own definitions, and pretend they stick.
So my work, such as it is, is not destructive (as you imply) and it does not, either, endanger my soul.

Torah says blasphemy always imperils the soul. So just don't blaspheme. God is not afraid of questions, speculations, hypotheses, reasons, evidence, truth, inquiry, etc. But he's opposed to being treated by the careless like He's not God, and as if can't do anything about it. He can. He will.
The question What endangers the soul (the psyche, the part of us that is divine or borne from a divine source and lives in us) is nevertheless a very good question.

Indirectly, I have been taking up that question. But if you wish to put more emphasis on it that would be very good.
Start with (fringe, Reformed) Judaism, if you like. It's what you know, so it's a good launch point.

What do you believe about the soul?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:32 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:28 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:33 pm Free will entails that they make their own choices -- particularly in relation to God and His will. So God would, of course, be fully aware of what they were going to do...but not making them do it, because they make those choices themselves.
But how can one who did not choose to be alive then choose a choice while it lives?
Oh, gosh...that's so easy to answer.

Let's say you made a baby. It had no choice about what you did. But as soon as it's out, you know it has its own mind, will and choices. It won't cry or fuss or excrete or eat when you want it to; it will do it when IT wants to. And as it grows, it will only do more and more extravagant things when IT chooses to...and you won't like all its choices.

Anybody who has a kid knows what free will is.
Who was the FIRST CHOOSER ? .. answer that IC if you dare?

Don't you understand that there are only concepts known here, that cannot know anything.

And your reply, is made up of more concepts known, all these concepts known are what maketh the story that concepts create, the story of choice which always implies a chooser.

I'm asking you who knows these concepts IC

If you cannot answer this question, then it's obvious that there is absolutely no knowing that any thing known is choosing life or death, and that these are just concepts known, but can never be the known concepts direct experience can it? The concept 'chooser' did not choose to be known... did it?

Who knows the known concepts IC ? ... Who? ... You can't answer that can you? :shock: free will is an illusion IC

When you use the concept IT ... that's about as useful as the IT in it's raining.....there's just raining IC
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:07 pm Who was the FIRST CHOOSER ? .. answer that IC if you dare?
So easy. Save the drama. :roll:

God.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:09 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:07 pm Who was the FIRST CHOOSER ? .. answer that IC if you dare?
So easy. Save the drama. :roll:

God.
Nope, that's a concept known.

You cannot point to this concept God directly with your finger, and physically touch it as a tangible object and tell yourself that is the chooser?


Try again.

I know this drama lesson is hard for you to cope with.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:09 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:07 pm Who was the FIRST CHOOSER ? .. answer that IC if you dare?
So easy. Save the drama. :roll:

God.
Are you now saying that the first chooser somehow just one day suddenly out of the blue popped aware and said to itself I choose to know that I live.

All that implies is that this first chooser must have chosen all the subsequent things that now know they live, all because of that first chooser who chose them all to live a life they couldn't have possible chosen for themselves, if they are are already chosen by the first chooser.

Is that right?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:07 pm It's clear you're out to impress somebody. It might not be me. It might be somebody who is more easily taken in.
Eighty-five percent of what I am doing here is really only in relation to my own self. I've said this many times. You are a stimulus, a sort of inspiration, to see into, see through, and re-visualize my own metaphysics.

Shall I explain the remaining 15%? 🙃
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:07 pm If we understand as true the claim that you have come as a "friend of Christianity," your position would not be "unique." Rather, it would be orthodox, and others would believe it, too. So that really doesn't make sense.
You skew when you read. Naturally, your skewing makes nonsense of things!

Most here are no friends of Christianity. I have spent a number of years researching Catholicism and Christianity and have a great deal of admiration for the elements. In this sense I am a 'friend' (and I remain a friend). But as you know Catholicism is infused with Platonism and numerous other (largely Greek) elements. I am philosophically committed to these.

I am opposed to your brand of Christian Evangelism. Yours is a radical branch of Protestantism and it is an odd animal indeed.

I work to locate what is metaphysically defensible in the Christian/Catholic metaphysical scheme.

If you'd have read my posts better -- without such skewing -- you'd have better understood long ago.
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Alexis Jacobi to Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:52 pm You skew when you read. Naturally, your skewing makes nonsense of things!

If you'd have read my posts better -- without such skewing -- you'd have better understood long ago.
I am intrigued by anyone's ability to so obviously and visibly skew for self-preservation (of beliefs and ego). Such skewing reaches its most outrageous potential, it seems, in religion and politics, perhaps man's two most deceptive creations?

Does this demonstrate a willfulness and selfishness in man... to fully commit to whatever he creates and maintains to serve himself, even when it's so blatantly dishonest and skewed? Yet how many of these men also speak of 'truth', while they lie to achieve that 'truth'?

It is as if such a person can no longer perceive such a thing in/about themselves... so intoxicated they are! This seems extraordinarily dangerous to the rest of humankind.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:52 pm I work to locate what is metaphysically defensible in the Christian/Catholic metaphysical scheme.
Good luck.

You're going to need it.
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:44 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:52 pm I work to locate what is metaphysically defensible in the Christian/Catholic metaphysical scheme.
Good luck.

You're going to need it.
The shit that comes out of my arse is more Christian than God. :twisted:
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:44 pm
And remember that human beings are "in the image of God," according to Genesis. God is not "in the image of man."
Once I asked you to show me what the image of God looks like. To which you promptly showed me a picture of Jesus, which to my immediate knowledge does appear to be an image of a man.

What gives?
Well? 🤔

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEW4dv ... tSrwp10H3g
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:09 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:07 pm Who was the FIRST CHOOSER ? .. answer that IC if you dare?
So easy. Save the drama. :roll:

God.
The knowledge that God is the first chooser to become known would have needed a material brain to process that information as being something that is comprehensible. In the same context the images on a TV or computer screen are made up of information that can only be seen and comprehensible due the material components that make up the material screen on which the information becomes manifest. The TV and computer monitor can be likened to the human physical body.

For knowledge such as you have claimed IC . . . a body would have been needed to manifest that knowing. And we all know that bodies need a material womb to birth them into existence.

Another question for you IC
Who was the first womb?

A womb in the material context, since there is no such thing as a non-material womb.
tillingborn
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Re: Christianity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:20 pm
tillingborn wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:19 am The media is owned and/or run by people with political interests, which will influence the news they report and how they report it, that is just a fact of life.
True enough.
Then what are you complaining about? You have a choice to listen to the 'legacy media' or anyone else who says things more in tune with what you want to hear. In the west at least there are alternative voices, that is freedom of speech. It is authoritarian to insist that only your interpretation of the news is permitted.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:44 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:52 pm I work to locate what is metaphysically defensible in the Christian/Catholic metaphysical scheme.
Good luck.

You're going to need it.
Since my declared *project* is that of understanding our present, and ourselves in that present, I can attempt to make broad statements in the hope that they might illuminate the topics that we have delved into here. With that said, and as a way to open another avenue of inquiry, I recently received a copy of an interesting book by Ron Rosenbaum with the title Explaining Hitler: The Search for the Origins of His Evil. Briefly, it is an examination of the different ideas and theories that attempt to *explain* Hitler -- the reasons why he appeared; what informed his actions and choices. While it investigates those varied theories it is really about the people who try to offer explanations. So in this sense it is a book that deals on *interpretation*. A hermeneutics of evil, if you will.

Now, I am fascinated by the entire question of *interpretation*. Frank Kermode wrote an essay The Genesis of Secrecy: On the Interpretation of Narrative which had a strong influence on me. From a Kirkus review:
Because all narratives share a "radiant obscurity," as we read we honor this mystery by helplessly trying to figure it out. Hermeneutics is usually the province of biblical scholarship, so Kermode resolves to start right there. Laminated with "secret texts," "midrashim," and corollaries to the Old Testament, the Gospels are a perfect ur-text: agents can be seen to become characters in the course of successive interpretation. Mark, the earliest written gospel, is a harsh story, purposely elusive, almost taunting. Matthew becomes more vivid, but also lops off edges that can make the reader/believer very edgy. Luke and John add verisimilitude—novelistic touches, necessary alignments. The synoptic Gospels, therefore, are created, Kermode argues, like any other text: they receive and consolidate sketchy mysteries, respond to the historical realities of their time (and prospective audience), and in their structures behave like any fiction: the how of the telling shapes the narrative fully as much as what's being told. Not to interpret, Kermode's argument goes, is to write off this hermetic, layered dignity of texts, to fix them to an ideology, to deny their mystery, treating them either as neutral architecture or journalistic propaganda. (There are modern references also—to Pynchon, Green, Kafka.) Though Kermode slips into jargon now and then, the thesis is well wrought, the scholarship varied and well-distributed, and the examples clear and deft.
So one idea that is always in the background to everything I write here is that we are all, all of us to a man, involved in a project of attempting to interpret our world. And additionally that we are living in a period of time in which everything seems to accelerate, or where confusions compound, and where a given *narrative* both explains, or tries to, and also obscures. What authority can we reference to provide us with a solid, a *true*, picture of what is really going on?

Cutting the the chase I suggest here that explanatory narratives fail. Yet too a problem is exposed. I will try to define it. Every explanatory narrative, and every hermeneutic, is driven by a set of interests. So allow me to take, as an example (which I will eventually tie-in to the main thrust of this essay), those events in Charlottesville Virginia. Have you successfully *interpreted* what happened there? Can you successfully *explain* what it was but also what it meant? Obviously, I have my doubts. And the reason is because those who interpret, who rush in powerfully with explanations and encapsulations, more often than not are not providing veritable explanation but are performing 'spin'
In public relations and politics, spin is a form of propaganda, achieved through knowingly providing a biased interpretation of an event or campaigning to influence public opinion about some organization or public figure. While traditional public relations and advertising may manage their presentation of facts, "spin" often implies the use of disingenuous, deceptive, and manipulative tactics.
So I think I can fairly say that we are all aware that swirling around us are entire arrays of explanatory narratives that are sent up in order to draw us into them, to accept them, to be influenced by the perspectives offered. Explain Donald Trump. Explain the cultural and historical juncture that produced him as a man but also as a phenomenon. Explain 'the Democratic Party'. Explain 'the Republican Party'. Explain America. Explain 'George Soros'. Explain the cultural fad (note that I just interjected explanation!) that, like a dance-craze, or like spirit-possession is inducing children to want to, to desperately need to, alter their sexuality. The list of things that require explanation, and hermeneutics, is extensive indeed. My assertion is that we are in a period of time where our *explanatory models* fail us. Why is this? There is much that can be said about this problem certainly.

But what I actually want to bring up here is the image, the thought, the concept, of Absolute Evil and Absolute Good. I will relate this to the topic of our present conversation. It will be done jerkily but I will try to complete the thought.

We have explored, or I have introduced the idea, that what *stands behind* the god-image of Yahweh is not 'good' but 'evil'. Put in the most simple and direct terms when a god-image whispers to you, or shouts to you, that there is an entire people that you must slaughter and wipe out of existence in order to perform 'god's will' I make the heartfelt suggestion that you resist the provocation. I must also suggest that you entertain the possibility that it is not 'god' speaking but something 'radically else'.

So I have to proceed farther with the developing thought. And what must be concluded? Think it through: the same 'evil' that was declared by the god-image speaking so explicitly in those Bible quotations, and which became part-and-parcel of a social and cultural paideia, is the same evil that animated the man known to history as Adolph Hitler. Or allow me to ask this question: what is the difference between what god demanded and what Hitler carried out?

You will have to answer this question before we will be able to move on from it.
48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.

53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
What conclusions am I, is one, are we to draw from this? I will make the attempt which is certainly hermeneutic. We are dealing with a twisted mythological system. We are dealing with a mythic system that we use to cover over our *real intentions*. We dress ourselves up in robes or righteousness and link ourselves to concepts of 'absolute good' as a way to keep ourselves from recognizing that this is not the truth about ourselves at all. In this sense we are *stuck within* and *captured by* a mythological explanatory story which is, perhaps, like a neurotic projection. It represents *the world* through a false interpretive lens and when we wed ourselves to it we can then do little else but *re-enact* the narrative elements of the story.

Hitler is the most baffling and the most enigmatic figure for Jews because -- gasp! -- he shows the very face, the most terrible face, of the very same god-image pictured right at the very root of Judaism staring and back at them.

Now the curious thing, from where I sit, is the resurfacing, the re-enunciation, the re-invocation of the Specter of Hitlerian Evil in our own time-frame. It is not a 'minor' theme' or something offhand and casual, it is in fact an extremely serious assertion about *something* operating in our present, which is to say, though they do not say it in this way, the manifestation of Absolute Evil in our midst: in us.

This evil must be assigned. So, narratives 'point' to those who manifest this evil, who emblemize it, who are costumed in it (?) or who provoke associations in the minds of those who fear it. But on another level narratives are manipulated for (as I have suggested) Machiavellian purposes. But note as well that *apocalyptic images* and deep-set fears are also unleashed and envelop us.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

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attofishpi wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:44 am The s....
Bad mistake.
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