Christianity

[Dubious]

You miss the point, Dubious. I am not concerned about IC and what he believes or doesn’t. I am here exclusively for my own purposes. That is, to achieve my own results by sorting out things relevant to me, for me.

That comes across as having to confirm your own credentials of belief by opposing them to a monolithic one devoid of any moving parts.

Nothing was ‘exposed’ for you (though you seem to have stuck around) because it seems you had already concluded things.

I'm concluded on the fundamentals of that we call reality even if that reality were an illusion but not in its details which contains more mystery than anything your imagination can come up with.

Yet your conclusions seemed rather limited. No work was undertaken that you could respect so you only expressed dissatisfaction that any conversation was going on at all.

Any conclusion, including yours contains limitations otherwise nothing can be concluded. My conclusions may seem less expansive to you only because yours are more metaphysically oriented having the means to formalize anything. But the question remains; are these actually your perceptibilities or ones gleaned and accepted as encountered in all your studies? Is there anything vaguely original about it?

Bluntly, I'm not into your or Seed's advanced specifications of ultra-reality being the sum total of all meaning and purpose within the cosmos...that, by some egregious strain of logic, since WE exist, THAT must also exist. To slightly paraphrase, that to me expresses a diseased ego extending into other imaginary domains searching feverishly for a higher reality. The here & now ain't good enough; there must be a beyond or what are we!

My intentions were never to demolish IC’s fortifications. It only had to do with myself (which is what I said all along).

I don't get that. Unless you believe what he believes what does it have to do with you except as debate brought forth on a philosophy forum? What others believe has nothing to do with you unless there's something in it which forces you to question your credences. I doubt anything so simplistic as complete renunciation to old scripture could cause that...certainly not in your case but somehow you think it essential!

What you say about Judaism for the Gentiles is true but there is another dimension too and that is that Occidental Europe took hold of otherworldly Christianity and adapted it to its purposes. So there is the aspect of the emergence of Indo-European sensibility despite the Christian damper. That has hardly been talked about but it is relevant.

Yes, that would make an interesting subject preeminently because such an investigation must focus on its historical development including how Christian metaphysics became more secular in the process. In short, it took perhaps only a few hundred years for Christianity as depicted in the gospels to recede from view once it became officially established under Constantine. Christianity, in essence, became formulaic instead of eschatological which is what created it.

Immanuel plays a ruthless game which at bottom is ultra-manipulative and no one here has ever spoken about how this expresses a diseased element that extends into other domains. That too has not been discussed.

But why would it need to be discussed? Your inquiry here really pertains to how fundamentalism in all its guises comes about; the kind of mental distortions that cause a fixed unchanging world-view completely contrary to any semblance of reality...like looking in a mirror and never seeing the image move. Why would people after having their predictions negated, double-down affirming even more the truth of what they assert. What remains interesting and important to know are the brain malfunctions which cause it; the imagined motives and absurdities which restrict the orbits of reality, each group seeing something entirely different within the same field of perception.

There is a great deal of mystery if that is taken as convoluted details needing to be sorted through. Where were you?

Not on the side of what is doomed to remain convoluted and slip[/quote]pery in every detail. But there is no reason why we can't enjoy a feast of mysticisms provided it doesn't become the main meal.

[Gary Childress]

I'm pissed right now, IC.

If you're going to be angry, doesn't it make sense to be angry in the right direction?

Maybe you should think about what's been the cause of your unhappiness. If there's no God, then you can't be angry in that direction. If there is, then there's no point in being angry with Him. So let's pick the right target, no?

I'd rather be angry with God than with people. People are often victims of misfortune themselves. As they say, hurt people hurt people. Enough neuroscience study has been done to show that we are what our brains form to be and when a part of the brain is damaged, then it can wildly affect a person's personality, abilities, and so forth. If someone else got screwed in life, chances are they'll find another to screw. I would like the buck to end with me. I've been screwed and I don't want to screw anyone else. I also got screwed with mental illness and that's really no one's fault but God's. Now I take medicines that fuck my brain up almost as much as they cure delusions or depression. I'm tired, IC. I want an end to all this and I'd prefer it to involve something good rather than something bad. But so far it's been nothing but bad or, at most, mediocre in my life, save for the basics of survival; food, water, shelter.

[Belinda]

I'm pissed right now, IC.

If you're going to be angry, doesn't it make sense to be angry in the right direction?

Maybe you should think about what's been the cause of your unhappiness. If there's no God, then you can't be angry in that direction. If there is, then there's no point in being angry with Him. So let's pick the right target, no?

I'd rather be angry with God than with people. People are often victims of misfortune themselves. As they say, hurt people hurt people. Enough neuroscience study has been done to show that we are what our brains form to be and when a part of the brain is damaged, then it can wildly affect a person's personality, abilities, and so forth. If someone else got screwed in life, chances are they'll find another to screw. I would like the buck to end with me. I've been screwed and I don't want to screw anyone else. I also got screwed with mental illness and that's really no one's fault but God's. Now I take medicines that fuck my brain up almost as much as they cure delusions or depression. I'm tired, IC. I want an end to all this and I'd prefer it to involve something good rather than something bad. But so far it's been nothing but bad or, at most, mediocre in my life, save for the basics of survival; food, water, shelter.

Gary, I can't help you with your mood, but I will point out that there was something good (not mediocre) in your life when you wrote that generous post.

[Lacewing]

I'm tired, IC. I want an end to all this and I'd prefer it to involve something good rather than something bad. But so far it's been nothing but bad or, at most, mediocre in my life, save for the basics of survival; food, water, shelter.

Imaginary gods are only useful to the imaginers who imagine those gods in a way that serves the imaginer. People might claim it's the other way around -- that their god created them -- but there are lots of lies that grow out of such imaginings, in order to perpetuate and preserve them.

That's why there are no gods taking care of the world and all of the pain in it. Gods are imagined in order to grasp at comfort, control, and excuses. When are we going to move beyond that?

Gary, I do not know how difficult your circumstances are, but I can see they are very frustrating, and my heart goes out to you. If an imaginary god would help you right now, go for it and have fun with it. But you might find more help from self-empowerment books (there are many) that show you other ways to think about yourself and life, and more empowering ways to use your mind. Perhaps some of them can work in cooperation with the drugs you're on, when you feel up to it. I would be happy to recommend a few books that inspired me at various points in my life. Or you can just use your intuition to seek out books that speak to you most effectively for where you are right now.

If you just want to be angry at someone, imaginary gods are a good target, rather than real people... as you pointed out. You've asked I.C. some very good questions, but he cannot answer with reasonable or truthful answers in regard to an imaginary god -- and that's what reveals it to be imaginary.

[Gary Childress]

If you're going to be angry, doesn't it make sense to be angry in the right direction?

Maybe you should think about what's been the cause of your unhappiness. If there's no God, then you can't be angry in that direction. If there is, then there's no point in being angry with Him. So let's pick the right target, no?

I'd rather be angry with God than with people. People are often victims of misfortune themselves. As they say, hurt people hurt people. Enough neuroscience study has been done to show that we are what our brains form to be and when a part of the brain is damaged, then it can wildly affect a person's personality, abilities, and so forth. If someone else got screwed in life, chances are they'll find another to screw. I would like the buck to end with me. I've been screwed and I don't want to screw anyone else. I also got screwed with mental illness and that's really no one's fault but God's. Now I take medicines that fuck my brain up almost as much as they cure delusions or depression. I'm tired, IC. I want an end to all this and I'd prefer it to involve something good rather than something bad. But so far it's been nothing but bad or, at most, mediocre in my life, save for the basics of survival; food, water, shelter.

Gary, I can't help you with your mood, but I will point out that there was something good (not mediocre) in your life when you wrote that generous post.

Are you talking about computers and the Internet? They're a bandaid at best, like a TV set used to be, something to hold one's attention away from things we don't want to think about.

[Dubious]

I'd rather be angry with God than with people.

It defaults to the same culprit since it's people who created the gods which is also the reason they all, or mostly all, look like us. Look in the mirror! That could have been a god; I'll let you decide which one!

[BigMike]

I'm pissed right now, IC.

If you're going to be angry, doesn't it make sense to be angry in the right direction?

Maybe you should think about what's been the cause of your unhappiness. If there's no God, then you can't be angry in that direction. If there is, then there's no point in being angry with Him. So let's pick the right target, no?

I'd rather be angry with God than with people. People are often victims of misfortune themselves. As they say, hurt people hurt people. Enough neuroscience study has been done to show that we are what our brains form to be and when a part of the brain is damaged, then it can wildly affect a person's personality, abilities, and so forth. If someone else got screwed in life, chances are they'll find another to screw. I would like the buck to end with me. I've been screwed and I don't want to screw anyone else. I also got screwed with mental illness and that's really no one's fault but God's. Now I take medicines that fuck my brain up almost as much as they cure delusions or depression. I'm tired, IC. I want an end to all this and I'd prefer it to involve something good rather than something bad. But so far it's been nothing but bad or, at most, mediocre in my life, save for the basics of survival; food, water, shelter.

Do not look to members of organized religion, or their followers, for solace or guidance. They are brainwashed liars, hypocrites, and deep down they know it. Over the course of thousands of years, they have honed the skill of offering explanations that don't really explain anything at all. Instead, you should look for the truth; the kind of truth that cannot be refuted in any way. The scientific consensus.

An English mathematician and philosopher named William Kingdon Clifford said we should only believe things with enough proof to back them up. "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone to ignore evidence that is relevant to his beliefs, or to dismiss relevant evidence in a facile way," he said.

To pursue the illusion that we call spirituality, religious awakening, or faith, as opposed to actual facts based on real physical observations is a waste of both your time and your sanity; you should avoid doing so. And above all, don't believe the massive onslaught of lies that will tell you that if you don't, you'll turn into a robot-like zombie. Nothing of that is true.

It is liberating to abandon all that religious nonsense in favor of submitting to and committing to the no-nonsensical, hard-fact truth. It could make you feel like you finally can breathe and enjoy life again.

[attofishpi]

If you're going to be angry, doesn't it make sense to be angry in the right direction?

Maybe you should think about what's been the cause of your unhappiness. If there's no God, then you can't be angry in that direction. If there is, then there's no point in being angry with Him. So let's pick the right target, no?

I'd rather be angry with God than with people. People are often victims of misfortune themselves. As they say, hurt people hurt people. Enough neuroscience study has been done to show that we are what our brains form to be and when a part of the brain is damaged, then it can wildly affect a person's personality, abilities, and so forth. If someone else got screwed in life, chances are they'll find another to screw. I would like the buck to end with me. I've been screwed and I don't want to screw anyone else. I also got screwed with mental illness and that's really no one's fault but God's. Now I take medicines that fuck my brain up almost as much as they cure delusions or depression. I'm tired, IC. I want an end to all this and I'd prefer it to involve something good rather than something bad. But so far it's been nothing but bad or, at most, mediocre in my life, save for the basics of survival; food, water, shelter.

Do not look to members of organized religion, or their followers, for solace or guidance; they are brainwashed liars. Over the course of thousands of years, they have honed the skill of offering explanations that don't really explain anything at all. Instead, you should look for the truth; the kind of truth that cannot be refuted in any way. The scientific consensus.

An English mathematician and philosopher named William Kingdon Clifford said we should only believe things with enough proof to back them up. "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone to ignore evidence that is relevant to his beliefs, or to dismiss relevant evidence in a facile way," he said.

To pursue the illusion that we call spirituality, religious awakening, or faith, as opposed to actual facts based on real physical observations is a waste of both your time and your sanity; you should avoid doing so. And above all, don't believe the massive onslaught of lies that will tell you that if you don't, you'll turn into a robot-like zombie. Nothing of that is true.

It is liberating to abandon all that religious nonsense in favor of submitting to and committing to the no-nonsensical, hard-fact truth. It could make you feel like you finally can breathe and enjoy life again.

HELL_o

...oh, bravo.

[Belinda]

I'd rather be angry with God than with people. People are often victims of misfortune themselves. As they say, hurt people hurt people. Enough neuroscience study has been done to show that we are what our brains form to be and when a part of the brain is damaged, then it can wildly affect a person's personality, abilities, and so forth. If someone else got screwed in life, chances are they'll find another to screw. I would like the buck to end with me. I've been screwed and I don't want to screw anyone else. I also got screwed with mental illness and that's really no one's fault but God's. Now I take medicines that fuck my brain up almost as much as they cure delusions or depression. I'm tired, IC. I want an end to all this and I'd prefer it to involve something good rather than something bad. But so far it's been nothing but bad or, at most, mediocre in my life, save for the basics of survival; food, water, shelter.

Gary, I can't help you with your mood, but I will point out that there was something good (not mediocre) in your life when you wrote that generous post.

Are you talking about computers and the Internet? They're a bandaid at best, like a TV set used to be, something to hold one's attention away from things we don't want to think about.

But you have thought about the shadow side! The internet is just a medium of communication like what paper letters, and peripatetic bards used to be.

[promethean75]

well gary i think being angry at god is childish. think about this: if there wuz a god, why, necessarily, would it 'owe' you, us, anything? the emotion of anger is built on the supposition that one is being betrayed by god and here's why. its anthropocentrically built into our reasoning to presume god, being the creator of intelligence, would also be intelligent and able to understand why and how a human being perceives the world as a theodicist would.

it's that fact that god must know how we feel about the deal, and so we reason that the evil in the world is necessary in some mysterious way, or it isn't and god is betraying us by creating a world like this and putting us in it.

that's the origin place of that childishness. that feeling of betrayal. there's a meekness in it.

i think... ah, that's what it is. this attitude toward god - and it is prevalent in atheism - is the better of the options available. one either feels angry at god and submits or doesn't submit and risks losing one's soul (which the atheist isn't sure doesn't exist).

it's a helluva pickle, gary. my solution involves a different understanding of 'god' such that 'anger' toward 'god' ends up being a meaningless confusion... a result of a misunderstanding of the nature of gawd, who is utterly without reservation and completely indifferent to everything. as such it should neither concern me what gawd is doing, and in my indifference to him i am incapable of being 'angry' at him.

it's the metaphysics of minding your own business, gary. MOMYOB. i don't fuck with him and he don't fuck with me. we have adequate aprior knowlege of each other but that's it. that's as far as it goes.

[Lacewing]

It is liberating to abandon all that religious nonsense in favor of submitting to and committing to the no-nonsensical, hard-fact truth. It could make you feel like you finally can breathe and enjoy life again.

Yes, very liberating and empowering!

I also actually discovered a more naturally spiritual way to see the world and recognize my part in it. We already belong! We have a natural ability to expand our awareness and connect with all else. We don't need a middle-man telling us what to believe or do. We don't need nonsense stories to numb or pacify us. We can relax when we stop catering to egos who imagine that the whole world/universe revolves around anyone or anything in particular.

[Lacewing]

well gary i think being angry at god is childish. think about this: if there wuz a god, why, necessarily, would it 'owe' you, us, anything?

Do you ever get angry from thinking that someone/something has created a crappy situation for you? Is it childish when you do it?

It's not about being 'owed' anything, necessarily... it's about frustration toward whatever is apparently responsible. I think Gary's frustration is understandable.

What's childish is believing and spreading nonsense based on absurd and archaic religious stories. Why not focus on the childishness of that? It's so childish I honestly cannot reason how it is still continuing in a civilization of such advances as we've made.

It's as if humankind can use our minds for such brilliant creations, yet we're spiritually stunted to believe in nonsense rather than recognizing our place and equality among all else. We have turned our fearful egos into gods to watch over us -- and we extend that distortion into hypnotizing and controlling others! What a disastrous strategy for humankind! We're too blind and fearful to recognize the real enemy of our own creativity, and it will destroy us -- but we'll blame it on some 'evil' other than ourselves.

[Immanuel Can]

I'm pissed right now, IC.

If you're going to be angry, doesn't it make sense to be angry in the right direction?

Maybe you should think about what's been the cause of your unhappiness. If there's no God, then you can't be angry in that direction. If there is, then there's no point in being angry with Him. So let's pick the right target, no?

I'd rather be angry with God than with people. People are often victims of misfortune themselves. As they say, hurt people hurt people.

Is that what you think is true of the woman who hurt you? She was a "victim," you think? "Misfortune" made her abuse and hurt you? And the one who deserves your ire is God? You think that?

If God were micromanaging her, she would have no free will, no choices. And neither would you. But then, you would have neither power nor opportunity to blame God. For "you" would not have the volition to do it.

But that you can be angry with God, or with anybody else, shows that you have your own identity and will. It's you who is being angry. It's not God forcing you to feel angry at Himself. So you know, Gary, that you've got your own choices, and you're making them as you see fit.

So was she. She was not a victim. She tried to turn you into one. And you can let her, or you can decide to think about things differently. You can decide that what you did was an act of kindness, and even if she has been a bad person, you were on the side of good when you tried to help her. And you can look forward, and trust God to make it up to you when the time comes, or you can write off the whole experience as a total waste.

Again, Gary, it makes no sense to be angry at God if you don't believe He exists. But if you do believe He exists, then there's no use in being angry. Where is your sense of the real culprit?

I also got screwed with mental illness and that's really no one's fault but God's.

Well, let's consider if that's true.

Did you come out of the womb mentally ill, Gary? Or were there things in your life...stages...traumas...parenting...abuse...elements that have pushed you down a slope into the place you find yourself now?

Now I take medicines that fuck my brain up almost as much as they cure delusions or depression. I'm tired, IC. I want an end to all this and I'd prefer it to involve something good rather than something bad. But so far it's been nothing but bad or, at most, mediocre in my life, save for the basics of survival; food, water, shelter.

The whole psychology industry is addicted to medicating people, Gary...and yet, medicated treatment is often hell. It's interesting that while people sometimes go from therapy to chemicals, the studies show they almost never go back the other way. That says a lot. Once there's a pill for it, people tend to assume that's the answer. But if chemicals are not the answer for you, then maybe you'd be better to start looking in another direction.

And maybe that direction even includes God.

I can't say this will be your experience, Gary: but it's the experience of one other man who faced somewhat of the same situation as you. https://ifoundshalom.com/andrew-klavan/

[FlashDangerpants]

It gets really unpleasant when he scents an opportunity for a conversion.

[promethean75]

"Do you ever get angry from thinking that someone/something has created a crappy situation for you? Is it childish when you do it?"

it usta not be childish when i wuzzint a philosopher, but when i became one and discovered that there is no freewill, i became a stoic and like the great master Spinoza, no longer wished to scorn, belittle or rebuke any sonsabitches that might get me into some shit. for all things in nature proceed with a certain necessity and order, even the sonsabitches.