Christianity

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Walker
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Re: Christianity

Post by Walker »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:37 pm
Walker wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:51 pm
I went one better. Having never heard of it before,...
"Nuff said. I ain't here to set you right.
Well, one has to know both Buddhism and Christian theology to know what's wrong there. The differences are not trivial.
One has to practice Tonglen to know the effects, which you have not done, which you do not know, and which do not conflict with the compassion-generating effects of Christianity. Generating compassion in relationship is the key effect, for that influences action.

No one is disputing any theological differences between Buddhism and Christianity, nor did I assert that the two are the same, or that the two do not have differences. That's not even the topic.

The topic, btw, is Gary's peace of mind, and Tonglen practice will bring that about, without abstractions of any particular view such as whatever can be lost or forgotten, at least until the Christian view spontaneously arises in response to personal peace disruption. Given his skepticism of Christianity, Tonglen could be a good fit to bring about his personal peace of mind regarding the experience he related.
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Per above: If one is honest about GOD one must comprehend that IT manifests its existence within varying religious cultures around the world, as fit for those born into it, I am a poet and fuk me I know IT.

My nephew bless him, over the years as a kid bought me a few Buddist thingamybobs including 3 little ornaments of boys sitting in various poses, representing from my limited understanding:- Hear no evil See no evil Speak no evil.

The last one of course is THE important one...since after enlightenment one should not 'output' ones comprehension of the evil side of GOD.....Y...=...LOVE

The other two are representative of the 'inputs' from GOD - sight and sound re aforementioned.

Yeah, it's rather arrogant of a short of sight fundamentalis "christian" such as IC to discount other posits of GOD, and ITS affect within other people and other cultures.
Walker
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Re: Christianity

Post by Walker »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:56 am
Yeah, it's rather arrogant of a short of sight fundamentalis "christian" such as IC to discount other posits of GOD, and ITS affect within other people and other cultures.
I disagree with the motives you assign to IC.

He is knowingly eliciting depth of understanding and explanation, with knowing himself as the knowing agent of ignorance. He does it directly so that the challenge and the explanation are more clear.

I think that takes a lot of character, to drop ego and put oneself in such a position, in service to the pursuit of truth and understanding.

Nothing but admiration for IC.
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Walker wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:02 am
attofishpi wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:56 am
Yeah, it's rather arrogant of a short of sight fundamentalis "christian" such as IC to discount other posits of GOD, and ITS affect within other people and other cultures.
I disagree with the motives you assign to IC.
Why? If there IS a God, then why should a fundamentalist Christian that believes everyone has ONE incarnation to be judged on death, feel that those born of other religions should be judged EQUALLY as per his comprehension of Christianity?

He's arrogant and short of sight where it comes to God, but then you appear to be equally stupid.

Walker wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:02 amHe is knowingly eliciting depth of understanding and explanation, with knowing himself as the knowing agent of ignorance. He does it directly so that the challenge and the explanation are more clear.
IC has knowledge via books...I'll grant him that, yet NO under_standing of GOD beyond a book called the Bible.

Walker wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:02 amI think that takes a lot of character, to drop ego and put oneself in such a position, in service to the pursuit of truth and understanding.
It takes sweet FA as a faceless username on an internet forum to preach scripture that CLEARLY does not provide truth and understanding.
Walker
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Re: Christianity

Post by Walker »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:06 am Why? If there IS a God, then why should a fundamentalist Christian that believes everyone has ONE incarnation to be judged on death, feel that those born of other religions should be judged EQUALLY as per his comprehension of Christianity?
Folks are free to believe what they must. That ain’t hurtin’ nobody. Action causes hurt, not belief.
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Walker wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:27 am
attofishpi wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:06 am Why? If there IS a God, then why should a fundamentalist Christian that believes everyone has ONE incarnation to be judged on death, feel that those born of other religions should be judged EQUALLY as per his comprehension of Christianity?
Folks are free to believe what they must. That ain’t hurtin’ nobody. Action causes hurt, not belief.
Really? Belief causes ridiculous people to act ridiculously with their action(s) or ...what planet R U ON?
Walker
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Re: Christianity

Post by Walker »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:38 am
Walker wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:27 am
attofishpi wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:06 am Why? If there IS a God, then why should a fundamentalist Christian that believes everyone has ONE incarnation to be judged on death, feel that those born of other religions should be judged EQUALLY as per his comprehension of Christianity?
Folks are free to believe what they must. That ain’t hurtin’ nobody. Action causes hurt, not belief.
Really? Belief causes ridiculous people to act ridiculously with their action(s) or ...what planet R U ON?
Not everyone is a slave to thought. This is the advantage of imagination. One need not do stupid, to know what is stupid to do.

Flaubert said it better, and his work was thinking:

“Be regular and orderly in your life, so that you may be violent and original in your work.”
Aspiring Animist
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Re: Christianity

Post by Aspiring Animist »

An interesting, but pointless, struggle between 2 immovable objects - faith and logic. Neither will yield to the other. We can elect to base our values and ideas upon a faith tradition that harks back more than several millennia and is constructed on a foundation of narrative, metaphor and mythos, or we can elect a more rationalistic approach. The two don't fuse together well.

This isn't Gould's non-overlapping magisteria, just incompatible processing systems. Gould essentially said that religion and science can't work together - which isn't so. For them to do so there can't be a narrative/rational polarity. Usually we invest in either at the expense of the other - and this leads to a ready perception of conflict. The 'middle ground' is more complex than either extreme, so it demands more effort - and that's something we don't necessarily want to invest.

My personal sense is that in 2022 we can't rely on a 2,000+ year old narrative to explain spiritual truths to us. I get that some folk prefer that, and I am not criticising. It's a personal choice - but it's not popular these days. Hence its is not understood sufficiently to make discussion/debate fruitful. And we can't rely on the purely rational either. It needs a narrative element to 'speak to the soul'.

I don't have an answer to the question about what will work - other than struggling for deeper understanding and good will towards those who do not see things our way.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Walker wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:31 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:37 pm Well, one has to know both Buddhism and Christian theology to know what's wrong there. The differences are not trivial.
One has to practice Tonglen to know the effects, which you have not done, which you do not know,
I haven't jumped from a skyscraper, sawed my own leg off, or used crack and fentanyl either.

Having "effects" one happens to like does not have anything to do with making an activity right or wrong. That which is contrary to that Word, no matter how much we like it, is still wrong. That's the Christian view, anyway.
promethean75
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Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

"i haven't jumped from a skyscraper, sawed my own leg off, or used crack and fentanyl either"

see now you're playing the victim card, IC. u have every right to do those things and nothing is stopping u but yourself.
seeds
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Re: Christianity

Post by seeds »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:58 am What kind of Universe would it be if all of this was a mistake?
What "mistake" are you talking about?

Please explain what you are referring to in that statement.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Well, what a strange impasse. I will try to recapitulate what has happened here, what seems to have been exposed. I cannot say with honestly that I wanted it to turn out like this however. But the facts seem to be as follow:

We must start at the beginning. The Christian system, built on the framework of the Hebrew system, is an absolutist religious, fundamentalist and an absolutist belief-system. What does this mean? It means that the idea of god, the ideas about god, are 'spun' by a priest-class into a absolutist psychological weapon (I do not know what other word to use though *weapon* is a bit strong) based in and out of an ethnic identity. Yahweh as the personal god of the Hebrews or the Hebrews as having concocted Yahweh to be their weapon in a war (an extension of social, cultural and political war) which essentially revolves around idea-domination or Hebrew idea-imperialism. The domination fo the entire 'ground of truth' and what can be true. Heavy stuff! The god that is visualized is a human creation though it is painted as coming through revelation. As if god himself appeared, spoke, made his will manifest.

I think that once one sees this *essential fact* one cannot un-see it. However, this does not mean that everything or all things that have come through this specific cultural matrix are *wrong* or *false*. Nevertheless the god that is pictured is a demiurge.
dem·i·urge (dĕm′ē-ûrj′)
n.
1. A powerful creative force or personality.
2. A public magistrate in some ancient Greek states.
3. Demiurge A deity in Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and other religions who creates the material world and is often viewed as the originator of evil.
4. Demiurge A Platonic deity who orders or fashions the material world out of chaos.
[Late Latin dēmiurgus, from Greek dēmiourgos, artisan : dēmios, public (from dēmos, people; see dā- in Indo-European roots) + ergos, worker (from ergon, work; see werg- in Indo-European roots).]
Seen in this light, which requires seeing it (the religion, the structural belief-system) from a place outside of it, from above it if you will, all such religious structures are the same. They are 'concoctions'. They are arbitrary. They have a range of functions which are in a sense hidden. The function though is the part that needs to be examined more closely. They can be said to be *invented* since they arise in human communities and, naturally, serve a wide range of functions there.

Immanuel Can serves the rôle here of 'absolute believer' or 'true believer'. He demonstrates how it happens that a man becomes wedded at a core personality and core psychological level to a 'concocted picture' or to a concretization of a religious ideology. It is not pictured as a simile or a metaphor or a likeness or an allusion. It is pictured as 'absolute truth'. Obviously, as we all have seen, any deviation from an descriptive recipe that sees in non-absolutist terms (metaphor, likeness, allusion) is resisted tooth and claw -- because it is recognized (consciously but also unconsciously) as a significant threat to the person who is wedded to the belief.

To believe one must either negate the entire critical realm of intellectual thought -- one cannot allow it in -- or one must never develop those skills and aptitudes that we label "intellectuality" and also "philosophy". Belief, then, is anti- or counter-intellectual. Yet I could never say that belief does not have a function, or a benefit is the word I am seeking, nor that it is possible not to *believe* (as IC himself has pointed out). You have to have some structure of belief, some way of stating what are your interpretations of what life here is and what it requires.

It is not possible to have no *belief*.

We are within a cycle of time, a juncture perhaps, where the view that I am expressing is viable and to a degree powerful. The world religions are tied to Medieval systems of description and interpretation of life and 'the world' (the universe, its meaning, etc.) They are fading out as viable pictures. But 'ghosts' remain. These are the *old patterns* or the *old structures* which, indeed, offered a thorough and incontrovertible description and explanation of the world (the cosmos). So the old structures fade away, yet they are held together by a spirit of vehemence such as that which Immanuel expresses. That is his rôle in this drama. He thus represents a huge class of people who have (say) invested in all that he has invested in.

We are in an environment where *philosophy* is performed. Philosophy, then, has the power to undermine just as I seem to have undermined faith and, also, a specified description of truth or a truth-revelation system. Sorry! Yet this route is not for everyone nor do I think should it be.

The Christian religious system is also a compendium of ethical strictures. The most thorough expression of this is, in my opinion, Catholic social doctrine or social teaching. It is a combination or a marriage perhaps between Hebrew prophetic value-assertion and Greek philosophical rationalism. What happens when the religious picture, as I call it, is deflated and a person cannot believe in the pure, unadulterated, innocent and childlike way that was formerly possible? One ends up in an uncertain *space*. But the ethical principles may yet still remain. No, it was not 'handed down' by the all-powerful father-god -- this view is a child's view (though still a very potent one). Does this mean that *god* does not exist? I am not sure that statement could be made. The demiurge exists, in effect, as a real force, but does it *really exist* as a separate entity out there or 'over there' or *up there*?

But what is 'god' and what in truth does this really mean? It no longer means (this is my view) what it had been purported to mean. God has receded then far out of the picture. I think this is indicates the manoeuvre that Henry has undertaken: Sure, god exists, he must have existed, but he is ultimately removed and, perhaps, silent. Or one has to resort to more abstract and spiritualized versions or descriptions of god. It is really a puzzle.

Politically and socially and culturally the battle rages. What we have been conversing here, and extremely superficially (and you should all hold yourselves accountable for this superficiality, IMO) is playing out on the world-stage. Both 'god' and 'the antichrist' are players in this drama. This is to say that the 'believers' are playing, as it were, with heavy-duty forces in the sense of powerful and determining concepts. But then the non-believers are not outside of the game, as no one of us is outside of the game. We are forced to play even if we do not wish to.

Does this mean that I am now an 'unbeliever'?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Can Tonglen help?

😂

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Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:06 am Well, what a strange impasse. I will try to recapitulate what has happened here, what seems to have been exposed. I cannot say with honestly that I wanted it to turn out like this however. But the facts seem to be as follow:

We must start at the beginning. The Christian system, built on the framework of the Hebrew system, is an absolutist religious, fundamentalist and an absolutist belief-system. What does this mean? It means that the idea of god, the ideas about god, are 'spun' by a priest-class into a absolutist psychological weapon (I do not know what other word to use though *weapon* is a bit strong) based in and out of an ethnic identity. Yahweh as the personal god of the Hebrews or the Hebrews as having concocted Yahweh to be their weapon in a war (an extension of social, cultural and political war) which essentially revolves around idea-domination or Hebrew idea-imperialism. The domination fo the entire 'ground of truth' and what can be true. Heavy stuff! The god that is visualized is a human creation though it is painted as coming through revelation. As if god himself appeared, spoke, made his will manifest.

I think that once one sees this *essential fact* one cannot un-see it. However, this does not mean that everything or all things that have come through this specific cultural matrix are *wrong* or *false*. Nevertheless the god that is pictured is a demiurge.
dem·i·urge (dĕm′ē-ûrj′)
n.
1. A powerful creative force or personality.
2. A public magistrate in some ancient Greek states.
3. Demiurge A deity in Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and other religions who creates the material world and is often viewed as the originator of evil.
4. Demiurge A Platonic deity who orders or fashions the material world out of chaos.
[Late Latin dēmiurgus, from Greek dēmiourgos, artisan : dēmios, public (from dēmos, people; see dā- in Indo-European roots) + ergos, worker (from ergon, work; see werg- in Indo-European roots).]
Seen in this light, which requires seeing it (the religion, the structural belief-system) from a place outside of it, from above it if you will, all such religious structures are the same. They are 'concoctions'. They are arbitrary. They have a range of functions which are in a sense hidden. The function though is the part that needs to be examined more closely. They can be said to be *invented* since they arise in human communities and, naturally, serve a wide range of functions there.

Immanuel Can serves the rôle here of 'absolute believer' or 'true believer'. He demonstrates how it happens that a man becomes wedded at a core personality and core psychological level to a 'concocted picture' or to a concretization of a religious ideology. It is not pictured as a simile or a metaphor or a likeness or an allusion. It is pictured as 'absolute truth'. Obviously, as we all have seen, any deviation from an descriptive recipe that sees in non-absolutist terms (metaphor, likeness, allusion) is resisted tooth and claw -- because it is recognized (consciously but also unconsciously) as a significant threat to the person who is wedded to the belief.

To believe one must either negate the entire critical realm of intellectual thought -- one cannot allow it in -- or one must never develop those skills and aptitudes that we label "intellectuality" and also "philosophy". Belief, then, is anti- or counter-intellectual. Yet I could never say that belief does not have a function, or a benefit is the word I am seeking, nor that it is possible not to *believe* (as IC himself has pointed out). You have to have some structure of belief, some way of stating what are your interpretations of what life here is and what it requires.

It is not possible to have no *belief*.

We are within a cycle of time, a juncture perhaps, where the view that I am expressing is viable and to a degree powerful. The world religions are tied to Medieval systems of description and interpretation of life and 'the world' (the universe, its meaning, etc.) They are fading out as viable pictures. But 'ghosts' remain. These are the *old patterns* or the *old structures* which, indeed, offered a thorough and incontrovertible description and explanation of the world (the cosmos). So the old structures fade away, yet they are held together by a spirit of vehemence such as that which Immanuel expresses. That is his rôle in this drama. He thus represents a huge class of people who have (say) invested in all that he has invested in.

We are in an environment where *philosophy* is performed. Philosophy, then, has the power to undermine just as I seem to have undermined faith and, also, a specified description of truth or a truth-revelation system. Sorry! Yet this route is not for everyone nor do I think should it be.

The Christian religious system is also a compendium of ethical strictures. The most thorough expression of this is, in my opinion, Catholic social doctrine or social teaching. It is a combination or a marriage perhaps between Hebrew prophetic value-assertion and Greek philosophical rationalism. What happens when the religious picture, as I call it, is deflated and a person cannot believe in the pure, unadulterated, innocent and childlike way that was formerly possible? One ends up in an uncertain *space*. But the ethical principles may yet still remain. No, it was not 'handed down' by the all-powerful father-god -- this view is a child's view (though still a very potent one). Does this mean that *god* does not exist? I am not sure that statement could be made. The demiurge exists, in effect, as a real force, but does it *really exist* as a separate entity out there or 'over there' or *up there*?

But what is 'god' and what in truth does this really mean? It no longer means (this is my view) what it had been purported to mean. God has receded then far out of the picture. I think this is indicates the manoeuvre that Henry has undertaken: Sure, god exists, he must have existed, but he is ultimately removed and, perhaps, silent. Or one has to resort to more abstract and spiritualized versions or descriptions of god. It is really a puzzle.

Politically and socially and culturally the battle rages. What we have been conversing here, and extremely superficially (and you should all hold yourselves accountable for this superficiality, IMO) is playing out on the world-stage. Both 'god' and 'the antichrist' are players in this drama. This is to say that the 'believers' are playing, as it were, with heavy-duty forces in the sense of powerful and determining concepts. But then the non-believers are not outside of the game, as no one of us is outside of the game. We are forced to play even if we do not wish to.

Does this mean that I am now an 'unbeliever'?
The "Christian system" won't capitulate entirely to "absolutist religious, fundamentalist and an absolutist belief-system" because Christianity is founded upon the life and work of a human man, not codified beliefs. As man the Christ is adaptable.

The priest class is comparatively recently evolved from the priest -king, and is politicalised religion as was the priest-king regime.

The "huge class of people" who are over- invested in a belief system need to discover the benefits of negative capability .
Keats sets up the model of Shakespeare, whose poetry articulated various points of view and never advocated a particular vision of truth.
(Wikipedia , Negative Capability).
The theological version of negative capability is apophatic or negative theology.
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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

Politically and socially and culturally the battle rages.
Yes, it does.

Liberties are not the grants of princes and parliaments.

[People have] rights…antecedent to all earthly governments–rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws.

Each individual of the society has a right to be protected…in the enjoyment of his life, liberty, and property…no part of the property of any individual can, with justice, be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent.

In a free state, every man…ought to be his own governor.

To be commanded we do not consent.

Liberty is [government’s] end.

In order to have this liberty, it is requisite the government be so constituted… that one citizen need not be afraid of another citizen.

Property must be secured, or liberty cannot exist

The end of…government is…the power of enjoying, in safety and tranquility, [individuals’] natural rights and the blessings of life.

[Government]…should be…for the preservation of internal peace, virtue, and good order, as well as the defense of their lives, liberties, and properties.

The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet’ and “Thou shalt not steal” were not commandments of heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.

Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people.

Trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.

Liberty must at all hazards be supported.

A free constitution of civil government cannot be purchased at too dear a rate, as there is nothing on this side of Jerusalem of equal importance to mankind.

Be not…wheedled out of your liberty by…hypocrisy, chicanery, and cowardice.


-John Adams
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