moral relativism

[Agent Smith]

What would that have to do with how we experience apparent reality?

I dunno! I thought that was exactly what we're trying to find out in the first place.

My understanding of morality is this, the seed of compassion is identifying one's self with the self in another creature, only then does compassion arise, and compassion is the foundation of morality.

Our "experience of reality"?

[Belinda]

Care, or the lack of compassion is what characterizes the psychopath. I did not stipulate that care was limited in any way, I did stipulate the there is only one source of care which is the conscious subject. If care is the core of divinity, then the conscious subject is the divine.

I think the divine is a property of the conscious subject and only the conscious subject. I don't know much about psychopathy. I did know a person who suffered from what used to be called manic depression. When he was badly depressed he felt sad he could not care as a feeling. He called his apathy a sort of ennui. He believed happiness existed but he could not attain it, and was shut out from it. He did however have strong moral principles. Is complete lack of moral principles definitive of psychopathy? I don't know.
There is a need for WD40 of the psyche.

Belinda,

Excellent point, but I think in order to have an understanding of the human condition, we need first to establish what is the normal human condition, aberrations of the normal are many.

I keep to the medical-clinical norm which is whatever supports life and absence of suffering not necessarily in that order. Psychopathy is unhappy and life threatening so I understand.

[popeye1945]

I think the divine is a property of the conscious subject and only the conscious subject. I don't know much about psychopathy. I did know a person who suffered from what used to be called manic depression. When he was badly depressed he felt sad he could not care as a feeling. He called his apathy a sort of ennui. He believed happiness existed but he could not attain it, and was shut out from it. He did however have strong moral principles. Is complete lack of moral principles definitive of psychopathy? I don't know.
There is a need for WD40 of the psyche.

Belinda,

Excellent point, but I think in order to have an understanding of the human condition, we need first to establish what is the normal human condition, aberrations of the normal are many.

I keep to the medical-clinical norm which is whatever supports life and absence of suffering not necessarily in that order. Psychopathy is unhappy and life threatening so I understand.

The psychopath is not necessarily unhappy, it is my understanding that in fact, they feel superior to the normal person who is restrained by a framework of morality. I have a simpler norm for my reactions, is this reaction going to increase suffering or decrease suffering, uncomplicated but a good guide.

[Belinda]

Belinda,

Excellent point, but I think in order to have an understanding of the human condition, we need first to establish what is the normal human condition, aberrations of the normal are many.

I keep to the medical-clinical norm which is whatever supports life and absence of suffering not necessarily in that order. Psychopathy is unhappy and life threatening so I understand.

The psychopath is not necessarily unhappy, it is my understanding that in fact, they feel superior to the normal person who is restrained by a framework of morality. I have a simpler norm for my reactions, is this reaction going to increase suffering or decrease suffering, uncomplicated but a good guide.

Frameworks of morality are all aimed at people living together helping each other instead of killing each other. The rational basis of morality --all codified moralities--- is reciprocity and respect for the other than self. I think of psychopathy as a sort of ignorance and disability of reasoning.

Not only individuals but also whole cultures may be ignorant and incapable of reason.

[Skepdick]

I have a simpler norm for my reactions, is this reaction going to increase suffering or decrease suffering, uncomplicated but a good guide.

Uncomplicated my ass.

Should you double suffering today if it would result in a 10x decrease of suffering in 1000 years time?

[Iwannaplato]

I keep to the medical-clinical norm which is whatever supports life and absence of suffering not necessarily in that order. Psychopathy is unhappy and life threatening so I understand.

The psychopath is not necessarily unhappy, it is my understanding that in fact, they feel superior to the normal person who is restrained by a framework of morality. I have a simpler norm for my reactions, is this reaction going to increase suffering or decrease suffering, uncomplicated but a good guide.

Frameworks of morality are all aimed at people living together helping each other instead of killing each other. The rational basis of morality --all codified moralities--- is reciprocity and respect for the other than self. I think of psychopathy as a sort of ignorance and disability of reasoning.

Except psychopathy is precisely not a disability of reasoning. It's an emotional disability. They don't give a shit about other people on an emotional level.

Why do psychopaths have no empathy?
These deficits are likely to be related to dysfunctions in a wide brain network involved in empathy, including the vmPFC/OFC and amygdala. And because a lack of sharing of vicarious negative arousal in these individuals, this may result in not showing empathic concern for others.

Another way to look at this is to ask yourself...if you see someone suffering or in need of help, are you reasoning your way to taking action, helping or feeling something for them? Because if you have to reason your way to the these things, these would be signs of a lack of empathy.

[Belinda]

The psychopath is not necessarily unhappy, it is my understanding that in fact, they feel superior to the normal person who is restrained by a framework of morality. I have a simpler norm for my reactions, is this reaction going to increase suffering or decrease suffering, uncomplicated but a good guide.

Frameworks of morality are all aimed at people living together helping each other instead of killing each other. The rational basis of morality --all codified moralities--- is reciprocity and respect for the other than self. I think of psychopathy as a sort of ignorance and disability of reasoning.

Except psychopathy is precisely not a disability of reasoning. It's an emotional disability. They don't give a shit about other people on an emotional level.

Why do psychopaths have no empathy?
These deficits are likely to be related to dysfunctions in a wide brain network involved in empathy, including the vmPFC/OFC and amygdala. And because a lack of sharing of vicarious negative arousal in these individuals, this may result in not showing empathic concern for others.

Another way to look at this is to ask yourself...if you see someone suffering or in need of help, are you reasoning your way to taking action, helping or feeling something for them? Because if you have to reason your way to the these things, these would be signs of a lack of empathy.

Psychopathy is sometimes cognitive e.g. hallucinations, and paranoia. Sometimes psychopathy is affective e.g. mood swings that make it hard to focus on reason. The affective influences the cognitive and vice versa.I am not an expert, far from it, however the above are quite common ideas.

[popeye1945]

Frameworks of morality are all aimed at people living together helping each other instead of killing each other. The rational basis of morality --all codified moralities--- is reciprocity and respect for the other than self. I think of psychopathy as a sort of ignorance and disability of reasoning.

Except psychopathy is precisely not a disability of reasoning. It's an emotional disability. They don't give a shit about other people on an emotional level.

Why do psychopaths have no empathy?
These deficits are likely to be related to dysfunctions in a wide brain network involved in empathy, including the vmPFC/OFC and amygdala. And because a lack of sharing of vicarious negative arousal in these individuals, this may result in not showing empathic concern for others.

Another way to look at this is to ask yourself...if you see someone suffering or in need of help, are you reasoning your way to taking action, helping or feeling something for them? Because if you have to reason your way to the these things, these would be signs of a lack of empathy.

Psychopathy is sometimes cognitive e.g. hallucinations, and paranoia. Sometimes psychopathy is affective e.g. mood swings that make it hard to focus on reason. The affective influences the cognitive and vice versa.I am not an expert, far from it, however the above are quite common ideas.

They have put psychopaths through MIR machines/Xrays of the brain and found that certain areas involved in triggering empathy and compassion do not light up indicating a lack of functioning. One can hardly hold someone responsible for not experiencing something, nevertheless, these individuals can and do play havoc in our social context, in other words, it's really bad news to have a psychopath in your life.

[Belinda]

Except psychopathy is precisely not a disability of reasoning. It's an emotional disability. They don't give a shit about other people on an emotional level.

Another way to look at this is to ask yourself...if you see someone suffering or in need of help, are you reasoning your way to taking action, helping or feeling something for them? Because if you have to reason your way to the these things, these would be signs of a lack of empathy.

Psychopathy is sometimes cognitive e.g. hallucinations, and paranoia. Sometimes psychopathy is affective e.g. mood swings that make it hard to focus on reason. The affective influences the cognitive and vice versa.I am not an expert, far from it, however the above are quite common ideas.

They have put psychopaths through MIR machines/Xrays of the brain and found that certain areas involved in triggering empathy and compassion do not light up indicating a lack of functioning. One can hardly hold someone responsible for not experiencing something, nevertheless, these individuals can and do play havoc in our social context, in other words, it's really bad news to have a psychopath in your life.

Very well said Popeye. However I don't know whether to call a defect in empathy and compassion a distorted mood or a distorted cognition, or both. I am inclined to call it a cognitive fault, as I'm a firm believer in moral development. There are slow learners and people with profound mental retardation, and I include moral retardation with mental retardation.

You did well to point out the above, as it shows psychopathy may or may not include defects of moods.

One thing that is easy to see is that the more we can understand what makes someone tick the more we can forgive them. This was not always so;Jahweh originally was punitive, and it was not until the OT prophets, and the whole Axial Age paradigm, came along that people's intentions were evaluated and not simply their actions.

[Belinda]

Iwannaplato wrote:

Another way to look at this is to ask yourself...if you see someone suffering or in need of help, are you reasoning your way to taking action, helping or feeling something for them? Because if you have to reason your way to the these things, these would be signs of a lack of empathy.

Empathy and sympathy are similar and I think what you describe is lack of sympathy. Both sympathy and empathy can be and should be taught. Feelings don't arise in a social vacuum.
Feelings are not moods or emotional reactions but are moods or emotional reactions that are have cognitive ideas added to them.

[henry quirk]

They have put psychopaths through MIR machines/Xrays of the brain and found that certain areas involved in triggering empathy and compassion do not light up indicating a lack of functioning.

If mind is just a function of brain, then -- yeah -- organic damage or dysfunction might lead to a damaged or dysfunctional mind.

If, however, mind is not brain function, if mind is sumthin' else, then such MRI/xray findings aren't about damage or dysfunction, but, instead, are about how a particular mind interacts with a particular brain. In other words: mebbe the sociopath isn't damaged but is just a bonafide bad egg and those under-used brain parts aren't the cause but the consequence. it's frowned on, I know, the possibilities man is sumthin' more than a meat machine and evil is sumthin' more than bio/psycho-founded, but I done put it on the table anyway

[Immanuel Can]

it's really bad news to have a psychopath in your life.

Usually. And most of the time.

But can we say there's a straight relationship between brain structure or brain chemistry and behaviour? It seems not. There are people who have highly dysfunctional-structured brains who are nevertheless totally functional within their society or in some useful context they've found. And that even includes people who lack empathy or who have a propensity for violence.

I hear that investment bankers who are not neurotypical do much better. Many successful figures in sports have had, through damage or genetics, an odd brain structure, and yet continue to succeed. And there have probably been many outright psychopaths who functioned very well in the context of an army, or of some other difficult and daunting job. You might not want any of them as neighbours, but you might not mind them in a fire fight.

There's got to be a socio-contextual element to such an assessment, I'm sure. I'm just not sure how far that goes.

[Iwannaplato]

Iwannaplato wrote:

Another way to look at this is to ask yourself...if you see someone suffering or in need of help, are you reasoning your way to taking action, helping or feeling something for them? Because if you have to reason your way to the these things, these would be signs of a lack of empathy.

Empathy and sympathy are similar and I think what you describe is lack of sympathy. Both sympathy and empathy can be and should be taught. Feelings don't arise in a social vacuum.
Feelings are not moods or emotional reactions but are moods or emotional reactions that are have cognitive ideas added to them.

Of course feelings don't arise in a social vaccuum. Good luck giving a psychopath some cognitive lessons. They are not being irrational, they lack empathy. And there are genes associated with this proclivity.

When you see someone hurt, do you need to reason your way to your feeling?

I've experieced this with you before. You're not really responding to what I am writing. You don't quite address my points. You find a new way to reprhrase and reassert your assertions.

If you go back and read my responses to your posts, and then read your responses to those, it's possible you will see that you really didn't address my arguments.

I'll head off to someone elses posts. But, for what it's worth, I have been in professional relations with some psychopaths and if you think they are making cognitive errors, you really have no idea what people dealing with psychopaths are dealing with.

It's like saying a grizzly bear is making a cognitive error when it attacks you. No, it doesn't care about you at all. And it felt threatened or watned to get in your tent. That's it. You were in the way.

[Belinda]

They have put psychopaths through MIR machines/Xrays of the brain and found that certain areas involved in triggering empathy and compassion do not light up indicating a lack of functioning.

If mind is just a function of brain, then -- yeah -- organic damage or dysfunction might lead to a damaged or dysfunctional mind.

If, however, mind is not brain function, if mind is sumthin' else, then such MRI/xray findings aren't about damage or dysfunction, but, instead, are about how a particular mind interacts with a particular brain. In other words: mebbe the sociopath isn't damaged but is just a bonafide bad egg and those under-used brain parts aren't the cause but the consequence. it's frowned on, I know, the possibilities man is sumthin' more than a meat machine and evil is sumthin' more than bio/psycho-founded, but I done put it on the table anyway

But bad eggs are caused to be bad. They had their skins broken and germs got in, or maybe they were old and the shells were porous and germs got in. Minds too can suffer traumas.

[popeye1945]

They have put psychopaths through MIR machines/Xrays of the brain and found that certain areas involved in triggering empathy and compassion do not light up indicating a lack of functioning.

If mind is just a function of brain, then -- yeah -- organic damage or dysfunction might lead to a damaged or dysfunctional mind.

If, however, mind is not brain function, if mind is sumthin' else, then such MRI/xray findings aren't about damage or dysfunction, but, instead, are about how a particular mind interacts with a particular brain. In other words: mebbe the sociopath isn't damaged but is just a bonafide bad egg and those under-used brain parts aren't the cause but the consequence. it's frowned on, I know, the possibilities man is sumthin' more than a meat machine and evil is sumthin' more than bio/psycho-founded, but I done put it on the table anyway

But bad eggs are caused to be bad. They had their skins broken and germs got in, or maybe they were old and the shells were porous and germs got in. Minds too can suffer traumas.

The mind is the full organism, for consciousness is with the total being. It might help to be reminded that the mind is a secondary organ in service to the body and it was the body that created the brain, the brain did not create the body. Psychopaths are products of genetics as we all are, we have no say in the matter. Apparently, nevertheless every normal person goes through a period of childhood where psychopathic tendencies are the norm, I think this is before the age of reason, seven or younger. I believe too that psychopaths can be created through abuse, many childhood traumas, etc., there is evidence supporting this.