Christianity

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:51 am In our last conversation you fell apart so badly you had to pretend you'd never used the word "rent" because it was somebody else's word,
What actually happened is you accused ME of saying something that appeared in a quotation from somebody else. So it's no surprise I said that I didn't use the word; it was not a quotation from me.

But you can remember that any way you want. Either way, I already pointed it out.
seeds
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Re: Christianity

Post by seeds »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:33 pm Though I have not studied the issue in any real depth, the 'intelligent design' argument is not unsound. For example, there is this conversation among scientists and mathematicians about the impossibility of random events achieving the complexity of the cell's structures. So, they hypothesize a 'designer'.
Yes, the participants in that conversation hypothesize a designer that, if real, is as far above them in scope, consciousness, and creative abilities as they are above amoebas. However, at no time did they even attempt to visualize the ontological nature of the designer they were hypothesizing.

And the reason why they made no effort to visualize the designer is because just as it is impossible for amoebas or flies to fathom our level of being, likewise, it is impossible for us humans to fathom the designer's level of being.

When we look down at the lower beings (starting with an amoeba, for example), we can see what seems to be distinct rungs on an ever-ascending ladder of consciousness that rises up to us. And my point is that we humans need to stop foolishly imagining that the ladder stops at our rung and ascends no further.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:33 pm What then happens is that religionists of all sorts latch on to that argument (that there was a designer) and employ it to justify their own religion's creation myths, which of course are cultural models and are un-similar one to the other.
Of course the religionists are going to latch on to it and try to apply it to their old paradigm concepts as a sort of temporary (hospice stage) life support for their dying belief systems.

Again, as I suggested earlier, humanity is in desperate need of a new and more logical metaphysical vision of reality in order to catch up with the advances made in the sciences and thus restore a more symmetrical balance between materialism and spirituality (don't make me bring out my Venn diagram again :D).
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:33 pm When one examines their arguments it really only amounts to a declaration, a logical inference, that 1) complex structures could not (according to mathematical probabilities) have arisen spontaneously. Seeds works with the same general argument when she uploads the images of static and then the *ordered world* in which we live. How could any of this have come about out of a flurry of random happenings?
First of all (and just for the record), I'm a "he," not a "she."

And secondly, I'm curious to hear how you might attempt to answer the bolded question in the above quote?

And lastly, it's not just that the unthinkable order of the universe arising by chance is riddled with mathematical improbabilities, no, it's also how quantum physics seems to be suggesting that the universe is "mind-like" in nature, thus loosely implying the plausibility of a Berkeleyan-ish form of panentheism.

Indeed, the following diagram...

Image

...not only represents a panentheistic vision of reality in which the world (the material universe) is contained within the "Designer's" being,...

...but it also represents how the Designer occupies the top rung of the ascending ladder of consciousness.

As always, I proclaim that the truth of reality is almost too simple, and is immediately available to each of us, for I suggest that our mind, of which we each carry around right within our own ("seed-like") skulls, is an embryonic replica of how the universe is structured, as is suggested in the old Hermetic adage...
As Above, So Below
_______
Gary Childress
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Re: Christianity

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promethean75 wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:11 pm I say, Gary, that upon writing the name 'Yoda' one needn't ever say 'from Star Wars' because there is only one Yoda and his only appearance was in Star Wars. So, if your listener/reader knows who Yoda is - and we assume they do and therefore have seen Star Wars - they must also know, ipso facto, that Star Wars is the movie he's from.

similarly, one wouldn't say 'michael Myers from Halloween' or 'Neo from the matrix' for the same reason.
Well, that's all good to know. I feel wiser already.
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iambiguous
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Re: Christianity

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Mr. Wiggle wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:33 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:36 am Okay, link us to that. To the parts in the book where, after reading them, we are finally unable to deny that there is a God, the God.

And that it is the Christian God? Based, in other words, on his own "observed facts and experiences"?

Indeed, where, in anything that Craig himself has written, will we find demonstrative proof that the Christian God resides in Heaven as one can demonstrate that the Pope resides in the Vatican.

Also, based on his own "observed facts and experiences"?.
You think it's possible for somebody to prevent a person from denying things, or from continuing to do so even when there is no longer a good reason to? :shock:

It never is. Obstinacy is infinite.

But if you buy the book, you'll have the best collection of up-to-date, academic essays dealing with the Natural Theology approach.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle!

Cite the evidence from the book. What "good reason" does the author convey though his own observations and experiences that would convince others that his "theology and knowledge of God" is enough to generate, say, a world-wide reaction such that everyone would be talking about this substantive and substantial proof.
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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:33 pmBut if you buy the book, you'll have the best collection of up-to-date, academic essays dealing with the Natural Theology approach.
You should throw him a bone...

-----

http://www.jpmoreland.com/books/natural-theology/

Description: The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology is now the third book that I have partnered with Bill Craig to either co-author (e.g., Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview) or co-edit (e.g., Naturalism). In this volume, we sought to rally and mobilize some of the foremost influencers in contemporary analytic natural theology in order to give them the opportunity to develop their arguments at length and to interact with the arguments’ critics.

The resulting volume of eleven chapters is a sophisticated compendium of theistic arguments. When you write, edit or contribute to such a volume as this, sure it’s impressive and it certainly bodes well for the CV, but you also often feel like this is serving more than just the good of contributing to a high-level of scholarly discussion. If Christian intellectuals are like political representatives – when they are not scandalized or besmirched by loony thinking! – participating in a compendium like this is a lot like representing the people “back home.” You feel a little like “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.” You are not merely representing an argument, but you are representing the believers and the stake-holders concerning the plausibility of knowledge of God. At the very least, Christian intellectuals are public spokespersons.

The volume opens with an essay on the project of natural theology by Charles Taliaferro. He not only provides a historical perspective on contemporary debates over theistic arguments but, even more, also emphasizes the importance of issues in the philosophy of mind for the viability of natural theology. To anyone who is not open to the notion of an immaterial mental substance distinct from a material substratum, the whole project of natural theology is abortive. Taliaferro, therefore, seeks to show that we are far from warranted in being confident that substantial minds are impossible, so that we must be open to the project of natural theology.

In chapter 2, Alexander Pruss explores the first theistic argument under discussion in this volume, the argument from contingency or the version of the cosmological argument classically associated with G. W. Leibniz. The argument attempts to ground the existence of the contingent realm of things in a necessarily existent being. Prominent contemporary proponents of theistic arguments of this sort include Richard Taylor, Timothy O’Connor, Robert Koons, Richard Swinburne, Stephen Davis, and Bruce Reichenbach, among others.

A cosmological argument of a different sort, one largely neglected until recent decades, is the so-called kalam cosmological argument. Based upon the finitude of the temporal series of past events, the argument aspires to show the existence of a personal Creator of the universe, who brought the universe into being and is therefore responsible for the universe’s beginning to exist. Philosophers such as G. J. Whitrow, Stuart Hackett, David Oderberg, and Mark Nowacki have made significant contributions to this argument. In their treatment in chapter 3, Bill Craig and James Sinclair examine afresh two classical philosophical arguments for the finitude of the past in light of modern mathematics and metaphysics and review remarkable scientific evidence drawn from the from the field of astrophysical cosmology that points to an absolute temporal origin of the cosmos. With this argument, we begin to see the intimate and fascinating links between natural theology and developments in contemporary science that philosophers cannot afford to ignore.

Those links are in full view in Robin Collins’s treatment of the teleological argument in chapter 4. John Leslie, Paul Davies, Richard Swinburne, William Dembski, Michael Denton, and Del Ratzsch are among the many defenders of this argument today. Focusing on the fine-tuning of nature’s laws, constants, and initial conditions, Collins asks how this amazing fine-tuning is best explained. He argues that the evidence strongly confirms the hypothesis of theism over an atheistic single universe hypothesis and, moreover, that appeals to a multiverse or a many-worlds hypothesis in order to rescue the atheistic position are ultimately unavailing. The argument from fine-tuning concerns the design of the universe with embodied moral agents in view. Our volume focuses on such agents in moving from the external world to the internal world of human persons in my essay on the argument from consciousness in chapter 5.

Setting aside panpsychism on the grounds that, first, it is a label for the problem of consciousness’ origin and not a solution and, second, theism and naturalism are the only live options for most Western thinkers, I lay out the ontological constraints for a naturalist worldview that follow most plausibly from a naturalist epistemology, etiology, and core ontology, to wit, there is a burden of proof for any naturalist ontology that ventures beyond strict physicalism. I then present and defend the central premises in an argument for God from the existence of consciousness or its lawlike correlation with physical states (the argument for God from consciousness, here after abbreviated as AC).

Given AC as a rival to naturalism, there is an additional burden of proof for a naturalist ontology that quantifies over sui generis emergent properties such as those constitutive of consciousness. After characterizing epistemically the dialectical severity of this burden, in the final section, I rebut the three most prominent naturalist theories of the existence of consciousness, namely, the views of John Searle, Collin McGinn, and Timothy O’Connor.

Contemporary advocates of this argument include Charles Taliaferro, Richard Swinburne, and Robert Adams. Partially due to the theistic connection between finite consciousness and God, a cottage industry of versions of physicalism has sprung up to eliminate consciousness in favor of or to reduce consciousness in one way or another to something physical. While this will be a hard sell to many, the existence and nature of reason cannot easily be treated along these lines on pain of self-referential inconsistence. Thus, in chapter 6 Victor Reppert develops an argument from reason for God’s existence based on the reality of reason in human persons.

Similar arguments have been developed by C. S. Lewis and Alvin Plantinga. Although the argument takes a number of forms, in all instances, according to Reppert, it attempts to show that the necessary conditions of logical and mathematical reasoning, which undergird the natural sciences as a human activity, require the rejection of all broadly materialist worldviews. Reppert examines the argument’s history, including the famous Lewis–Anscombe controversy, and indicates how the argument from reason can surmount Anscombe’s objections. He then investigates three sub-arguments: the argument from intentionality, the argument from mental causation, and the argument from the psychological relevance of logical laws, showing how these demonstrate serious and unsolved difficulties for materialism. Having laid out two features of anthropology that are recalcitrant facts for naturalists but which provide evidence for theism – consciousness and reason – a third theistic friendly purported fact about human persons is that they are moral agents with intrinsic value. Thus, we next turn to metaethical issues, as Mark Linville presents a moral argument for God’s existence in chapter 7.

Contemporary philosophers who have defended various versions of the moral argument for theism include Robert Adams, William Alston, Paul Copan, John Hare, and Stephen Evans. Linville argues that naturalists, committed as they are to the blind evolutionary development of our cognitive faculties in response to the pressures to survive, cannot be warranted in their moral convictions, in contrast to theists, who see our moral faculties as under the suzerainty of God. Linville also contends that atheistic views of normative ethics, in contrast to theistic views, cannot adequately ground belief in human dignity. If we trust our moral convictions or believe in personal dignity, we should, then, be theists.

Moral considerations raise naturally the problem of evil in the world. In his chapter 8, Stewart Goetz distinguishes between the idea of a defense and that of a theodicy, and defends an instance of the latter. As a prolegomenon to his theodicy, Goetz examines the purpose or meaning of an individual’s life. Although the vast majority of philosophers, including those who write on the problem of evil, have shown little or no interest in this topic for far too long, Goetz believes that an understanding of the purpose for which a person exists provides the central insight for a viable theodicy. This insight is that a person exists for the purpose of experiencing the great good of perfect happiness. Given that perfect happiness is an individual’s greatest good, Goetz argues that it supplies the core idea for why God is justified in permitting evil. Main contemporary contributors to a theistic treatment of evil include Alvin Plantinga, William Alston, Richard Swinburne, Marilyn Adams, Peter van Inwagen and Stephen Wykstra, among many others.

One aspect of the problem of evil is God’s apparent inactivity in the presence of evil and in the midst of ordinary, daily life. On the other hand, it has been the testimony of millions of people that God Himself has shown up in their lives and that they have both experienced His presence and seen effects in and around their lives that only He could do. (I discuss some of this in Kingdom Triangle and in my co-authored book with Klaus Issler, In Search of A Confident Faith).

Human persons are not only moral agents, they are ineluctably religious. According to Kai-man Kwan in chapter 9, the argument from religious experience contends that given the appropriate premises, we can derive from the religious experiences of humankind a significant degree of epistemic justification for the existence of God. Kwan has no intention of arguing here that only one particular theistic tradition (such as Christianity) is correct. He focuses on a subclass of religious experiences, the experiences of God or theistic experience, and argues that theistic experiences provide significant justification for belief in God. Kwan does not claim that his argument is a conclusive argument on its own, but he does think that it is a reasonable argument that can contribute to the cumulative case for the existence of God.

Contemporary defenders of arguments from theistic religious experience include William Alston, Jerome Gellman, William Wainwright, and Keith Yandell. The summit of natural theology is the famous ontological argument, which would infer God’s existence starting from the concept of God as the greatest conceivable being. This argument, if successful, will give us God with all His superlative, great-making attributes. Recent defenders of the argument in various forms include Charles Hartshorne, Kurt Gödel, Norman Malcolm, Alvin Plantinga, Clement Dore, Stephen Davis, and Brian Leftow.

In his essay in chapter 10, Robert Maydole, one of the most recent philosophers to enter the lists on behalf of the ontological argument, examines classical statements of the argument along with contemporary reformulations. He argues that some versions of the ontological argument are not only sound but also non-question-begging and are not susceptible to the parodies that detractors of the argument frequently offer.

Our final essay moves from generic theism to specifically Christian theism, as Timothy and Lydia McGrew develop in some detail an argument from miracles, the miracle in this case being the central Christian miracle of Jesus of Nazareth’s resurrection. Scholars who have made significant contributions to an argument of this sort include Wolfhart Pannenberg, N. T. Wright, Gerald O’Collins, William Lane Craig, Stephen Davis, Richard Swinburne, Dale Allison, Gary Habermas, and a host of New Testament historians. McGrew and McGrew’s contribution lies in their careful formulation of the argument in terms of Bayes’s Theorem, showing how, pace David Hume, miracles are positively identifiable as the most probable hypothesis despite the prior improbability of a miracle claim. They argue that in the case of Jesus’s putative resurrection, the ratio between the likelihoods of the resurrection hypothesis and its contradictory is such that one ought to conclude that the resurrection hypothesis is the most probable hypothesis on the total evidence.

The foregoing arguments, while not exhausting the range of arguments of contemporary natural theology, do serve as representative of the best work being done in the field today. It is our hope that the present Companion will serve as a stimulus to the discussion and further development of these arguments.

-----

...not that he really cares.
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:42 pm
If there is a 'creator god' and that god created the world (the cosmos, literally the entire manifestation of everything) that is simply a declared possibility but no specific religion or religious ethical system is thereby supported from the intuited assertion.
We can, though, posit an ethic.

We can take a gander at what is (includin' ourselves) and make some minimal guesses as to the nature of a creator god and what it might want. Reality is, and Reality has rules of operation, so we might say this is a purposeful creator god with an eye toward sumthin'. Our universe doesn't seem to be a Jackson Pollock affair. There's consistency and coherence, symmetry and elegance to Reality apart from what we say. That is: the whole thing is beautiful.

And there's us, mankind. We do all manner of unique things (which I heap under the label of free will [but that's me...you see it as you like]) settin' us apart from and perhaps above other life. And, as I've pointed out over & over, every last one of us, no matter where or when, seems to have a deep in the bones understanding I am my own.

So, an ethic we can mebbe draw from this, a minimal, sensible rule about what (a creator god believes) is and isn't permissible might be: a person, any person, is his own and no one ought lay claim to him. We can infer if a person is his own and no one has a claim to him, it's wrong for such a claim to be made.

We're left with, as you say...the same puzzlement and wonder at the entire manifest universe. And one has no clear way to explain or to understand how any of this came about...but we aren't bereft of a means of navigatin' it.
What if what transforms the universe from " aJackson Pollok affair" to an orderly system is human mind?
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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:07 amWhat if what transforms the universe from " aJackson Pollok affair" to an orderly system is human mind?
Nah, we discover those rules of operation, we recognize that consistency, coherence, symmetry and elegance. The beauty is there to find.

We ain't the source of it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:58 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:33 pmBut if you buy the book, you'll have the best collection of up-to-date, academic essays dealing with the Natural Theology approach.
You should throw him a bone...
...not that he really cares.
That's why I don't.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:25 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:07 amWhat if what transforms the universe from " aJackson Pollok affair" to an orderly system is human mind?
Nah, we discover those rules of operation, we recognize that consistency, coherence, symmetry and elegance. The beauty is there to find.

We ain't the source of it.
Yep.

It's not even possible to imagine that we created the order that made our own creation possible. We're contingent beings, and as Sartre pointed out, we're "thrown into" a system that is already working before we get there, and will continue to work when we're gone. We find it operating already; and we know for sure we didn't personally make it operate.

The same is true of the whole human race; it, too, is contingent and temporal, and only exists because the universe was in place, and orderly, and governed by law-implying regularities before we ever got here. We came in in the middle of the story, not at the start.

And we ain't the Author.
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:12 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:25 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:07 amWhat if what transforms the universe from " aJackson Pollok affair" to an orderly system is human mind?
Nah, we discover those rules of operation, we recognize that consistency, coherence, symmetry and elegance. The beauty is there to find.

We ain't the source of it.
Yep.

It's not even possible to imagine that we created the order that made our own creation possible. We're contingent beings, and as Sartre pointed out, we're "thrown into" a system that is already working before we get there, and will continue to work when we're gone. We find it operating already; and we know for sure we didn't personally make it operate.

The same is true of the whole human race; it, too, is contingent and temporal, and only exists because the universe was in place, and orderly, and governed by law-implying regularities before we ever got here. We came in in the middle of the story, not at the start.

And we ain't the Author.
I'm not sure why, but I find your style of faith rather fascinating from a psychological point of view.

Do you believe that this life you are living, indeed everyones is their first incarnation of existence upon planet Earth?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:00 am Do you believe that this life you are living, indeed everyones is their first incarnation of existence upon planet Earth?
Of course.

What would provide us sufficient reason to think otherwise, contrary to all normal intuitions and experience? That would require a very elaborate sort of explanation...how it works, how the trans-generational karmic narrative is controlled and by what it is determined, why we ought to think the universe 'cares' about our alleged "enlightement" through successive cycles...and so on.

Who has that?

In any case, we know for certain that the universe is not eternal. That's empirically verifiable. The reincarnation narrative requires an eternal universe. So it would be up to such a person, contrary to physics, cosmology and the deliverances of ordinary material science, to show that in spite of all these things the universe not merely could be, but is eternal.
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:18 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:00 am Do you believe that this life you are living, indeed everyones is their first incarnation of existence upon planet Earth?
Of course.

What would provide us sufficient reason to think otherwise, contrary to all normal intuitions and experience? That would require a very elaborate sort of explanation...how it works, how the trans-generational karmic narrative is controlled and by what it is determined, why we ought to think the universe 'cares' about our alleged "enlightement" through successive cycles...and so on.
Well, the night the sage introduced himself to me I asked some questions, one of which was are we reborn into the family that we deserve - I was tapped heavily on my right knee - as in right. Also, many years later I was told something quite profound about my previous life.
So, to the contrary of your belief, I think it actually makes more sense that God would have this method of getting us to the point of being worthy of Christ and heaven.

Think about this, if everyone is born into their current life right now as their first incarnation upon the Earth - is it fair that you were born into your upbringing (in Canada?) whereas some are born into absolute dire poverty and do not have the moral guidance that you have received and yet, according to your faith, will be judged by their actions equally as you.

It's like you think God must just role the dice prior to everyone's birth as to where they are born - an extremely unjust system.

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:18 amIn any case, we know for certain that the universe is not eternal. That's empirically verifiable. The reincarnation narrative requires an eternal universe.
No it doesn't.
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Re: Christianity

Post by BigMike »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:34 am
To quote W, "Well that was some weird shit."
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

seeds wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:44 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:33 pm Though I have not studied the issue in any real depth, the 'intelligent design' argument is not unsound. For example, there is this conversation among scientists and mathematicians about the impossibility of random events achieving the complexity of the cell's structures. So, they hypothesize a 'designer'.
Yes, the participants in that conversation hypothesize a designer that, if real, is as far above them in scope, consciousness, and creative abilities as they are above amoebas. However, at no time did they even attempt to visualize the ontological nature of the designer they were hypothesizing.

And the reason why they made no effort to visualize the designer is because just as it is impossible for amoebas or flies to fathom our level of being, likewise, it is impossible for us humans to fathom the designer's level of being.

When we look down at the lower beings (starting with an amoeba, for example), we can see what seems to be distinct rungs on an ever-ascending ladder of consciousness that rises up to us. And my point is that we humans need to stop foolishly imagining that the ladder stops at our rung and ascends no further.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:33 pm What then happens is that religionists of all sorts latch on to that argument (that there was a designer) and employ it to justify their own religion's creation myths, which of course are cultural models and are un-similar one to the other.
Of course the religionists are going to latch on to it and try to apply it to their old paradigm concepts as a sort of temporary (hospice stage) life support for their dying belief systems.

Again, as I suggested earlier, humanity is in desperate need of a new and more logical metaphysical vision of reality in order to catch up with the advances made in the sciences and thus restore a more symmetrical balance between materialism and spirituality (don't make me bring out my Venn diagram again :D).
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:33 pm When one examines their arguments it really only amounts to a declaration, a logical inference, that 1) complex structures could not (according to mathematical probabilities) have arisen spontaneously. Seeds works with the same general argument when she uploads the images of static and then the *ordered world* in which we live. How could any of this have come about out of a flurry of random happenings?
First of all (and just for the record), I'm a "he," not a "she."

And secondly, I'm curious to hear how you might attempt to answer the bolded question in the above quote?

And lastly, it's not just that the unthinkable order of the universe arising by chance is riddled with mathematical improbabilities, no, it's also how quantum physics seems to be suggesting that the universe is "mind-like" in nature, thus loosely implying the plausibility of a Berkeleyan-ish form of panentheism.

Indeed, the following diagram...

Image

...not only represents a panentheistic vision of reality in which the world (the material universe) is contained within the "Designer's" being,...

...but it also represents how the Designer occupies the top rung of the ascending ladder of consciousness.

As always, I proclaim that the truth of reality is almost too simple, and is immediately available to each of us, for I suggest that our mind, of which we each carry around right within our own ("seed-like") skulls, is an embryonic replica of how the universe is structured, as is suggested in the old Hermetic adage...
As Above, So Below
_______
I'd label the diagram thus: the outer ring is the reality originating in man's creating imagination and the inner ring is social reality.

Since we have no choice but to live with social reality the outer ring is where the battle for right and wrong takes place.
promethean75
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Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

"To quote W, "Well that was some weird shit."

Hey Mikey get a load of this guy, will ya!

You ever been tapped on the knee by a sage before?
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