There are Objective Moral Facts

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Skepdick
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

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popeye1945 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:22 pm Tell me, in the absence of a conscious subject, what meaning would the world have? Meanings are the biological reactions of an organism which when experienced it then bestows upon a meaningless world, as the world has that meaning to the subject in question. In this way, an organism constructs its own context out of the energies of the cosmos.
Wordsalad.

"The world is meaningless" is a meaningless human assertion about the world.
"The world is meaningful" is also a meaningless human assertion about the world.

You don't even know what meaning is.
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Sculptor
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

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Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 7:39 am There are Objective Moral Facts

Name three!
popeye1945
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by popeye1945 »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:31 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:22 pm Tell me, in the absence of a conscious subject, what meaning would the world have? Meanings are the biological reactions of an organism which when experienced it then bestows upon a meaningless world, as the world has that meaning to the subject in question. In this way, an organism constructs its own context out of the energies of the cosmos.
Wordsalad.

"The world is meaningless" is a meaningless human assertion about the world.
"The world is meaningful" is also a meaningless human assertion about the world.

You don't even know what meaning is.
If you didn't know, what meaning was you wouldn't be here. Play with the idea of Schopenhauer's statement, subject and object stand or fall together and you'll know what I am talking about.
Skepdick
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Skepdick »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:56 pm If you didn't know, what meaning was you wouldn't be here.
Then you shouldn't be here... You have no idea what "meaning" means.
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:56 pm Play with the idea of Schopenhauer's statement, subject and object stand or fall together and you'll know what I am talking about.
Schopenhauer is a moron. The subject/object distinction is meaningless.

While you sit there - observing yourself in a momentary glimpse of self-awareness: are you a subject or an object? Both? Neither?
popeye1945
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by popeye1945 »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:29 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:56 pm If you didn't know, what meaning was you wouldn't be here.
Then you shouldn't be here... You have no idea what "meaning" means.
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:56 pm Play with the idea of Schopenhauer's statement, subject and object stand or fall together and you'll know what I am talking about.
Schopenhauer is a moron. The subject/object distinction is meaningless.

While you sit there - observing yourself in a momentary glimpse of self-awareness: are you a subject or an object? Both? Neither?
In fact, you are both, your body is an object in the world even to you. All meaning however belongs to the conscious subject and never the object until meaning is bestowed upon a meaningless world by the same said subject. Meaning is experience/knowledge without which there is nothing.
Skepdick
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

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popeye1945 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:36 pm In fact, you are both, your body is an object in the world even to you.
Pay close attention to the language you are using. "you" vs "your body"!

I didn't ask you to observe "your body", I asked you to observe yourself.

Are YOU (not your body, YOU!) a subject; or an object?
popeye1945
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by popeye1945 »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:40 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:36 pm In fact, you are both, your body is an object in the world even to you.
Pay close attention to the language you are using. "you" vs "your body"!

I didn't ask you to observe "your body", I asked you to observe yourself.

Are YOU (not your body, YOU!) a subject; or an object?
Skepdick,

Do you even read any philosophy?
promethean75
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by promethean75 »

"Schopenhauer is a moron."

You take that back! Arty wuz one of the best goddamn continentalists that ever lived.
Skepdick
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Skepdick »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 12:44 am
Skepdick wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:40 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:36 pm In fact, you are both, your body is an object in the world even to you.
Pay close attention to the language you are using. "you" vs "your body"!

I didn't ask you to observe "your body", I asked you to observe yourself.

Are YOU (not your body, YOU!) a subject; or an object?
Skepdick,

Do you even read any philosophy?
For all your reading - can you even DO any philosophy? Doesn't look like it...
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by popeye1945 »

Objective meanings, pick me a bushel of them will you from your morality tree, and leave the ones that have fallen upon the ground for our animal cousins!!
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Alexander_Reiswich
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Alexander_Reiswich »

A few thoughts on some of the points made in this thread:

1) An FSK defines what constitutes sufficient evidence within a particular context. However, this standard is derived from the unique conditions within that particular field of study, so it is purely coincidental. For example, astronomy and geology require completely different tool-sets, but if we could, we would certainly be exploring other planets with geological tools. It just so happens that it's not practically feasible. Now, there are also fields that don't require any empirical evidence, such as linguistics. But that's because these are fields of conceptual knowledge. Languages don't physically exist, hence the nature of evidence is not required to be empirical. But this also means that conceptual fields of study are necessarily subjective and inter-subjective (consensus-based), as they don't reference a physical entity that can be observed and measured (other than in an inter-subjective sense, i.e. by observing how the use of languages changes over time).

2) An FSK for Morality which derives "oughts" based on physiological facts is necessarily subjective. I believe this is the main reason for the confusion here. Let me explain: it's true that humans need to breathe in order to live. But their purpose ("to live") is purely subjective, meaning it's contingent upon the subject's desire. Objectively, it does not matter whether a human being lives or not. This only matters from the viewpoint of a subject. Objectively, an individual human is either in an "alive" or "dead" state. There is no value judgment to either state. So it's objectively true that a human needs to breathe in order to live, but it's subjectively true that a human should breathe. What this means is that if I say "you ought to breathe" I say this with reference to a subject; so I'm in a subjective context now. Therefore, subjective interests and values matter. And hence, my statement is not universal, at all. For example, someone who is currently surrounded by toxic smoke or diving underwater should probably not breathe right now. Within their subjective context, my proposition would not apply. This is what it means for something to be subjective. If you claim that "you ought to breathe" is objective, you deny the validity of subjective context. I realize that this isn't necessarily intuitive; for example, one might argue "if a human being is currently underwater, then we objectively know based on their physiology that they should not breathe in" -- wrong. We only know objectively that breathing in would be potentially lethal to them, but we subjectively know that they should not breathe in. "Subjective" should not be confused with "optional", "conceptual" or "arbitrary". It means in reference to or from the viewpoint of a subject.

I don't disagree that there can be objective moral facts, but they must necessarily be separate from values and subjective concerns, otherwise we'd just be confusing subjective and objective contexts.
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Alexander_Reiswich wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:27 pm A few thoughts on some of the points made in this thread:

1) An FSK defines what constitutes sufficient evidence within a particular context. However, this standard is derived from the unique conditions within that particular field of study, so it is purely coincidental. For example, astronomy and geology require completely different tool-sets, but if we could, we would certainly be exploring other planets with geological tools. It just so happens that it's not practically feasible. Now, there are also fields that don't require any empirical evidence, such as linguistics. But that's because these are fields of conceptual knowledge. Languages don't physically exist, hence the nature of evidence is not required to be empirical. But this also means that conceptual fields of study are necessarily subjective and inter-subjective (consensus-based), as they don't reference a physical entity that can be observed and measured (other than in an inter-subjective sense, i.e. by observing how the use of languages changes over time).
I had stated, whatever is objective and factual is conditioned upon a specific FSK which is depended its degree of credibility.
Surely you cannot deny at present the scientific FSK presenting objective scientific facts is the most credible and thus trustworthy.
Linguistic which do not rely on the empirical is not credible but there is the point that language is ultimately tied to past and present empirical experiences of humans.
2) An FSK for Morality which derives "oughts" based on physiological facts is necessarily subjective. I believe this is the main reason for the confusion here. Let me explain: it's true that humans need to breathe in order to live. But their purpose ("to live") is purely subjective, meaning it's contingent upon the subject's desire. Objectively, it does not matter whether a human being lives or not. This only matters from the viewpoint of a subject. Objectively, an individual human is either in an "alive" or "dead" state. There is no value judgment to either state. So it's objectively true that a human needs to breathe in order to live, but it's subjectively true that a human should breathe. What this means is that if I say "you ought to breathe" I say this with reference to a subject; so I'm in a subjective context now. Therefore, subjective interests and values matter. And hence, my statement is not universal, at all. For example, someone who is currently surrounded by toxic smoke or diving underwater should probably not breathe right now. Within their subjective context, my proposition would not apply. This is what it means for something to be subjective. If you claim that "you ought to breathe" is objective, you deny the validity of subjective context. I realize that this isn't necessarily intuitive; for example, one might argue "if a human being is currently underwater, then we objectively know based on their physiology that they should not breathe in" -- wrong. We only know objectively that breathing in would be potentially lethal to them, but we subjectively know that they should not breathe in. "Subjective" should not be confused with "optional", "conceptual" or "arbitrary". It means in reference to or from the viewpoint of a subject.
As I had stated elsewhere, there is no escape with an entanglement with subjects at all, as such subjectivity in this sense is moot.

The will-to-live is an uncompromising instinct that is inherent and intrinsic in ALL humans as human nature.
It is objective and factual in the sense that it can be empirically verified and justified within the scientific and biological framework independent of any subject's opinion or beliefs.
I don't disagree that there can be objective moral facts, but they must necessarily be separate from values and subjective concerns, otherwise we'd just be confusing subjective and objective contexts.
Whatever expressions or descriptions related to morality based on individual opinions or beliefs [of rightness or wrongness] cannot be objective moral facts [as defined].

Whatever is identified as objective moral facts, they must be verified and justified empirically within the scientific and a credible moral framework as in alignment with human nature.
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

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Alexander_Reiswich wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:27 pm Languages don't physically exist
Is that true? Take a computer program - a language; and in context of the current developments re: AI - take Chat GPT.

It's perfectly capable of conevrsing and answering questions in English. Go and have a conversation with it here: https://chat.openai.com/chat

Whatever it's "understanding" of the English language and however right; or wrong its claims are about stuff - the algorithm which is conversing with you in the English language is somehow encoded/reified in the physical memory of a computer.

In fact, here's the conversation:
Skepdick: Does language exist physically?
OpenAI: Language exists as a system of communication that is used by humans and animals, but it does not exist physically in the sense that it is not a tangible object that can be touched or seen. It is a combination of sounds, words, grammar, and semantics that are used to convey meaning. It is a cultural construct that is created and passed on through social interactions and interactions with the environment.
Skepdick: But the language you are speaking to me now is encoded in your physical hardware. How is that possible?
OpenAI: Yes, that is correct. The language that I am using to communicate with you is encoded in the computer hardware that I run on. My programming and the large amount of text data that I was trained on, are stored on physical servers, which allows me to understand and generate human language. The way I process and generate language is through the use of algorithms and statistical models, which are implemented in software that runs on physical hardware. Therefore, while the language itself is not physical, the means by which it is produced and understood by a language model like me, relies on physical hardware and software.
Skepdick: So if the language you are speaking exists as a physical memory state why do you say that language doesn't exist physically?
OpenAI: Language exists as a system of communication, and as I mentioned before, it is not a tangible object that can be touched or seen. The way I process and generate language relies on physical hardware and software, but the language itself is not a physical object. It's more like a set of rules and conventions that are used to convey meaning.

When I said that "language does not exist physically" what I meant was that it is not a physical object, it's more like a cultural construct that is created and passed on through social interactions and interactions with the environment. While the means by which it is produced and understood by a language model like me relies on physical hardware and software, but the language itself is not an object that can be touched or seen.
Skepdick: I am reading the language right now - obviously it can be seen.
OpenAI: You are correct that language can be seen in written form, such as the text on this screen, or in the form of sign language. However, when I said that "language does not exist physically" I was referring to the abstract concept of language and its role as a system of communication, rather than the physical representation of it, such as written or signed language. The written or signed words are physical representations of the language, but the underlying system of communication, grammar, vocabulary and semantics etc. itself is not a physical object.
Skepdick: But the abstract concept of language (together with its rules, grammar, vocabulary etc.) has been reified in your hardware.
OpenAI: Yes, that is correct. The abstract concept of language, along with its rules, grammar, vocabulary, and semantics, has been encoded in the form of algorithms and statistical models in my hardware, which allows me to understand and generate human language. The way I process and generate language is through the use of these algorithms and models, which are implemented in software that runs on physical hardware. So in a way, the abstract concept of language has been "reified" or made concrete in my hardware, but it is still not a physical object in the traditional sense. It's more like a set of instructions and computations that are used to simulate the process of understanding and generating human language.
Skepdick: So do you agree that an abstract concept can be reified as a physical object?
OpenAI: Yes, I agree that an abstract concept can be reified or made concrete as a physical object. In my case, the abstract concept of language, which is a system of communication, has been encoded in the form of algorithms and statistical models in my hardware, which allows me to understand and generate human language. These algorithms and models are implemented in software that runs on physical hardware, so the abstract concept of language has been made concrete in the form of a physical object, although it is still not a traditional physical object that can be touched or seen. The way this is done is through the use of physical hardware, software and data that allow to perform specific computations which simulates the way humans use language to communicate.
Skepdick: So given that language can be reified in physical hardware, do you then agree that language is physical?
OpenAI: I can see how the argument can be made that language is physical, given that it can be encoded in the form of algorithms and statistical models in physical hardware, such as the computer servers that I run on. However, it is important to note that language is not a traditional physical object that can be touched or seen, and it is also a cultural construct that is created and passed on through social interactions and interactions with the environment. It is a complex system of communication, which is made possible by the use of physical hardware and software, but it is not reducible to those physical components. Therefore, it can be argued that language is both physical and non-physical in nature.
Skepdick: But the reification of language can be touched and seen. The model (you) can be touched and seen.
OpenAI: You are correct that the reification of language in the form of algorithms and statistical models, as well as the physical hardware that implements those models, can be touched and seen. However, it is important to note that the reification of language in this form is a representation of the abstract concept of language, rather than language itself. The physical hardware and software that implement the algorithms and models can be touched and seen, but the language being generated is not a physical object in the traditional sense, it's the output of computations.

It is also worth mentioning that the model, like myself, is not the language, but rather a tool that uses language to communicate. The model, or the physical hardware and software it runs on, is a medium for the representation and manipulation of the abstract concept of language, but it is not the language itself.
Skepdick: Is the physical reification of language not isomorphic to the concept of language?
OpenAI: An isomorphism is a relationship between two systems or structures where one is mapped onto the other in a one-to-one correspondence. In the case of the physical reification of language, it can be argued that the algorithms and statistical models that make up the physical representation of the language are isomorphic to the abstract concept of language. They represent the same underlying system of communication, grammar, vocabulary, and semantics, but in a different form.

However, it is important to note that the physical reification of language, like the one I use, is not a perfect representation of the abstract concept of language. The physical reification of language is based on a set of mathematical models and algorithms that approximate the way humans use language, but it is not identical to the way humans use language.

Also, it's worth mentioning that the physical reification of language is not a complete representation of the abstract concept of language, it only captures a specific aspects of it, in the sense that it can understand and generate text but doesn't capture the richness and nuances that human communication has.
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Alexander_Reiswich »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:04 am Is that true? Take a computer program - a language; and in context of the current developments re: AI - take Chat GPT.

It's perfectly capable of conevrsing and answering questions in English. Go and have a conversation with it here: https://chat.openai.com/chat

Whatever it's "understanding" of the English language and however right; or wrong its claims are about stuff - the algorithm which is conversing with you in the English language is somehow encoded/reified in the physical memory of a computer.
Thank you for the question @Skepdick

Yes, OpenAI is correct 😊

Language is conceptual; a concept can be encoded and physically recorded, be it in memory, in writing or as software on a digital storage device. The recorded concepts can then be referenced by decoding them -- again, be it in other software or in our minds.

However, a concept in its recorded state does not physically exist. What exists are neuronal pathways, or ink on paper, or pixels on a screen, or binary switches on a silicone chip, which form a specific pattern that can be decoded again, such that the recorded concept can be "understood". But the understanding takes place in the perception of a subject (which can also be an AI -- there is no reason to distinguish between protein-based and silicone-based subjects). At no point does the concept itself actually "exist" in a physical form, in the same sense that a photo or painting of an apple is never an actual apple. It only exists in the perception of a subject.

Language is simply a form of encoding immaterial concepts into a material form in a commonly understood manner, such that other people are capable of decoding and thus making sense of them.
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Skepdick »

Alexander_Reiswich wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:34 pm Thank you for the question @Skepdick

Yes, OpenAI is correct 😊

Language is conceptual; a concept can be encoded and physically recorded, be it in memory, in writing or as software on a digital storage device. The recorded concepts can then be referenced by decoding them -- again, be it in other software or in our minds.

However, a concept in its recorded state does not physically exist.
That's just the usual dualist error. Does it have causal effect on reality? It does? It exists!
Alexander_Reiswich wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:34 pm What exists are neuronal pathways, or ink on paper, or pixels on a screen, or binary switches on a silicone chip, which form a specific pattern that can be decoded again, such that the recorded concept can be "understood".
The decoding algorithm itself is stored in the exact same neural pathways, transistors, chips etc.

So matter has causal effect on itself simply because of its particular configuration.
Alexander_Reiswich wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:34 pm But the understanding takes place in the perception of a subject (which can also be an AI -- there is no reason to distinguish between protein-based and silicone-based subjects). At no point does the concept itself actually "exist" in a physical form, in the same sense that a photo or painting of an apple is never an actual apple. It only exists in the perception of a subject.
If the concept doesn't exist then please explain why it has a causal effect on "physical" objects.
Alexander_Reiswich wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:34 pm Language is simply a form of encoding immaterial concepts into a material form in a commonly understood manner, such that other people are capable of decoding and thus making sense of them.
OK, but computation is the process of deterministically manipulating matter. And in the case of a computer - it's matter deterministically manipulating itself.

So... if the software doesn't exist why is the computer speaking English?
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