Philosophy

[Iwannaplato]

We're spendin' too much time worryin' about symptoms and ignorin' the disease.

What is your diagnosis?

Domestication of man. To make him willingly accept the leash. It's hard, long, dirty work. Can't just work on his body: gotta work on his spirit. He must be broken, demoralized, made to question his certainties (that he is free, is a free will, is his own; that he has a right to his, and no other's, life, liberty, and property; that he is sumthin' more than, sumthin' other than, a smart ape; that he is a moral being).

Break him and he'll accept all manner of atrocity, and he'll accept the leash.

Well, there's also the corporate breaking of the soul. Make the citizen feel like freedom is choosing between Nike and Addidas. Make the citizen think that they are mere surfaces: the selfie, the wearing/driving/living in the right products is how you make a self. Make them think and from a very early age that greatness is in proper consumption. Distract their asses as much as possible, all the time. Put sugar in every fucking food product. Work on dopamine via social media, food products, commericials and films, to such a degree that they cannot be quiet, alone, without external dopamine triggers and never learn who they are. And nowadays, perfect, hook them up to constant music, so that even a few minutes of introspection in silence would be like going cold turkey off of heroin. Teach them via subtext in commericials and films and what success is. IOW indoctrinate indirectly, the most effective way, starting when they are young. (we worry a lot about open indoctrination and rightly so, but indirect is vastly more effective). Teach them early on that the child, the protocitizen is to passively take in information while not moving sitting at a desk from the adult (expert).

You don't need to break people so much if you have them young. Carrots (laced with all kinds of addictive substances) work as well as sticks. You don't need to break someone who never noticed they have a soul at all.

[Wizard22]

I wasn't asking about corruption. I was asking about taxes. I'm fine with alternatives. But I don't think the way trails were made in Westward migration works as a model for the creation of and maintenance of modern roads and highways, all of which requires expensive machinery and skilled labor (and unskilled labor). You're welcome to explain how things like prisons, fire departments, police departments and court systems would also be handled without taxes. Besides as far as I can see the first roads were built by the states and the postal roads were made by the feds.

In a tribe we know each and can divvy up labor well and we know we are workign for eachother, one degree of separation, motivation to get along with kin and tribe being motivations. But what would make me go out to run the machine that carves the first line of asphalt before someone else tears up the old blacktop?

How does this work in a large society where we don't know eachother if we don't collect money from citizens to fund this?

Truly I am happy to get an alternative. But the nearly non-technical 'roads' in the 1900s and earlier just don't cut it.

The point is that Government is completely unnecessary as a motivation or organization in the frontier societies. People do all of the above, on their own.

What you are suggesting, are levels of comfort and standard-of-living far beyond sustenance. That's a different argument. As I mentioned a couple times already, corruption comes with larger organizations of society. Taxation is theft, inviting more corruption over time. You give me your money, and I decide how to spend it. This is "the government". There are many forms of corruption; and there are many forms of solutions to address them. There is no "one solution" or even "one problem".

[Wizard22]

Domestication of man. To make him willingly accept the leash. It's hard, long, dirty work. Can't just work on his body: gotta work on his spirit. He must be broken, demoralized, made to question his certainties (that he is free, is a free will, is his own; that he has a right to his, and no other's, life, liberty, and property; that he is sumthin' more than, sumthin' other than, a smart ape; that he is a moral being).

Break him and he'll accept all manner of atrocity, and he'll accept the leash.

I agree, and furthermore, there are many traditions throughout the world among the "elite", who maintain educational systems about how to manipulate and control, buck-break the masses, and look down upon the masses as their property and slaves. Thus, what most people conceive of 'freedom' is only a falser, lesser form of freedom. It is "freedom", relative to what has been taken from birth, and then sold back to the masses. Real, actual freedom in life, becomes rarer as land and natural resources across the world become more and more privatized and monopolized. It becomes harder as time goes on, for "just anybody" to rise up, or even take a small section for himself.

[Wizard22]

See, absolutely NO child 'needs' 'discipline' AT ALL,

Age, when you say crap like this, it demonstrates to me that you have no experience supervising or being responsible of children aged 3-4 on a playground. I was a teacher assistant for a summer in college. All children need discipline, some more than others, or they'll bully and steal from each-other. Infants and children are menaces. Your false presumption, that humanity is naturally-automatically morally good and righteous, is just as wrong as you can get about life.

You need to rethink your entire world view.

[Wizard22]

Also, when it comes to sex, it's very simple.

When people have sex for procreation, then it is normal and natural. When people have sex for recreation, then it is hedonism and decadence, excess. Homosexuality/Transexuality/Etc. all other perversions are hedonistic. The very definition of 'perverted' means non-procreative. It signals a degradation of your natural instinct.

Everybody understands this; but few will agree with it. You should ask yourself why that is.

[Belinda]

Domestication of man. To make him willingly accept the leash. It's hard, long, dirty work. Can't just work on his body: gotta work on his spirit. He must be broken, demoralized, made to question his certainties (that he is free, is a free will, is his own; that he has a right to his, and no other's, life, liberty, and property; that he is sumthin' more than, sumthin' other than, a smart ape; that he is a moral being).

Break him and he'll accept all manner of atrocity, and he'll accept the leash.

I agree, and furthermore, there are many traditions throughout the world among the "elite", who maintain educational systems about how to manipulate and control, buck-break the masses, and look down upon the masses as their property and slaves. Thus, what most people conceive of 'freedom' is only a falser, lesser form of freedom. It is "freedom", relative to what has been taken from birth, and then sold back to the masses. Real, actual freedom in life, becomes rarer as land and natural resources across the world become more and more privatized and monopolized. It becomes harder as time goes on, for "just anybody" to rise up, or even take a small section for himself.

Right you are Wizard!
One way to help the deluded masses is reportage, novels, and theatre that portray individuals who have not lost or who have rediscovered their 'souls'.

[Belinda]

Domestication of man. To make him willingly accept the leash. It's hard, long, dirty work. Can't just work on his body: gotta work on his spirit. He must be broken, demoralized, made to question his certainties (that he is free, is a free will, is his own; that he has a right to his, and no other's, life, liberty, and property; that he is sumthin' more than, sumthin' other than, a smart ape; that he is a moral being).

Break him and he'll accept all manner of atrocity, and he'll accept the leash.

I agree, and furthermore, there are many traditions throughout the world among the "elite", who maintain educational systems about how to manipulate and control, buck-break the masses, and look down upon the masses as their property and slaves. Thus, what most people conceive of 'freedom' is only a falser, lesser form of freedom. It is "freedom", relative to what has been taken from birth, and then sold back to the masses. Real, actual freedom in life, becomes rarer as land and natural resources across the world become more and more privatized and monopolized. It becomes harder as time goes on, for "just anybody" to rise up, or even take a small section for himself.

Right you are Wizard!
One way to help the deluded masses is reportage, novels, and theatre that portray individuals who have not lost or who have rediscovered their 'souls'.

See, absolutely NO child 'needs' 'discipline' AT ALL,

Age, when you say crap like this, it demonstrates to me that you have no experience supervising or being responsible of children aged 3-4 on a playground. I was a teacher assistant for a summer in college. All children need discipline, some more than others, or they'll bully and steal from each-other. Infants and children are menaces. Your false presumption, that humanity is naturally-automatically morally good and righteous, is just as wrong as you can get about life.

You need to rethink your entire world view.

I agree with Wizard. There are situations for instance in the playground, or on the sportsfield where training i.e. not education proper, is appropriate.

[Wizard22]

That helps wake rare souls up to their condition; I am not under the delusion though that the masses can or want to wake up. Few can handle, or would even want to, the weight of responsibility that freedom brings. The freer you are, the more you are forced to understand the conditions of that freedom. "With great power, comes great responsibility".

I think the best avenues for freedom in the future, is to open up new frontier spaces and societies, through space exploration and colonization.

On Earth, humanity will be fighting more and more for fewer scraps and crumbs for millenniums to come. The methods of mind-control and manipulation are already becoming more sophisticated, with artificial intelligence, and offering ever newer and more powerful forms of hedonism and pleasure-seeking. Asceticism is necessary to avoid this. Just say 'No' to drugs? Just say 'No' to the "metaVerse"...

[FlashDangerpants]

Also, when it comes to sex, it's very simple.

When people have sex for procreation, then it is normal and natural. When people have sex for recreation, then it is hedonism and decadence, excess. Homosexuality/Transexuality/Etc. all other perversions are hedonistic. The very definition of 'perverted' means non-procreative. It signals a degradation of your natural instinct.

Everybody understands this; but few will agree with it. You should ask yourself why that is.

most people won't agree because it is stupid. others might bother to point out that you aren't even making an argument there.

unfortunately for you, it looks like Belinda is willing to big you up. she has this uncanny ability to pick out an idiot and give them a nice ego boost.

[Iwannaplato]

I wasn't asking about corruption. I was asking about taxes. I'm fine with alternatives. But I don't think the way trails were made in Westward migration works as a model for the creation of and maintenance of modern roads and highways, all of which requires expensive machinery and skilled labor (and unskilled labor). You're welcome to explain how things like prisons, fire departments, police departments and court systems would also be handled without taxes. Besides as far as I can see the first roads were built by the states and the postal roads were made by the feds.

In a tribe we know each and can divvy up labor well and we know we are workign for eachother, one degree of separation, motivation to get along with kin and tribe being motivations. But what would make me go out to run the machine that carves the first line of asphalt before someone else tears up the old blacktop?

How does this work in a large society where we don't know eachother if we don't collect money from citizens to fund this?

Truly I am happy to get an alternative. But the nearly non-technical 'roads' in the 1900s and earlier just don't cut it.

The point is that Government is completely unnecessary as a motivation or organization in the frontier societies. People do all of the above, on their own.

What you are suggesting, are levels of comfort and standard-of-living far beyond sustenance. That's a different argument. As I mentioned a couple times already, corruption comes with larger organizations of society. Taxation is theft, inviting more corruption over time. You give me your money, and I decide how to spend it. This is "the government". There are many forms of corruption; and there are many forms of solutions to address them. There is no "one solution" or even "one problem".

I've never seen this work on large scales. If we had tiny 'nations', ok, there is precendent. I mean tiny. But I don't see it happen in nation states. There you are dealing with strangers. If we had tiny countries, ok, but how to we convince the nations we have to become a bunch of tiny ones

[Age]

See, absolutely NO child 'needs' 'discipline' AT ALL,

Age, when you say crap like this, it demonstrates to me that you have no experience supervising or being responsible of children aged 3-4 on a playground. I was a teacher assistant for a summer in college. All children need discipline, some more than others, or they'll bully and steal from each-other. Infants and children are menaces. Your false presumption, that humanity is naturally-automatically morally good and righteous, is just as wrong as you can get about life.

You need to rethink your entire world view.

Here we have ANOTHER example from ANOTHER one who reads a few words on a screen, DECIDES to MAKE ASSUMPTIONS BEFORE DECIDING to SEEK OUT and GAIN CLARIFICATION, FIRST, and then DECIDES to EXPRESS those ASSUMPTIONS, which 'it' BELIEVES are true, right, and correct but which are ACTUALLY False, Wrong, AND Incorrect.

These adult human beings, back in the days when this was being written, literally, did NOT have the 'self-discipline' to do what was NEEDED to LEARN, COMPREHEND, and UNDERSTAND what IS thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.

[Age]

Also, when it comes to sex, it's very simple.

When people have sex for procreation, then it is normal and natural. When people have sex for recreation, then it is hedonism and decadence, excess. Homosexuality/Transexuality/Etc. all other perversions are hedonistic. The very definition of 'perverted' means non-procreative. It signals a degradation of your natural instinct.

Everybody understands this; but few will agree with it. You should ask yourself why that is.

ALSO, "wizard22", I suggest 'you' just respond by answering the ACTUAL question posed to 'you', that way 'you' will NOT DRIFT so FAR OFF TRACK , like 'you' have here.

[Age]

Domestication of man. To make him willingly accept the leash. It's hard, long, dirty work. Can't just work on his body: gotta work on his spirit. He must be broken, demoralized, made to question his certainties (that he is free, is a free will, is his own; that he has a right to his, and no other's, life, liberty, and property; that he is sumthin' more than, sumthin' other than, a smart ape; that he is a moral being).

Break him and he'll accept all manner of atrocity, and he'll accept the leash.

I agree, and furthermore, there are many traditions throughout the world among the "elite", who maintain educational systems about how to manipulate and control, buck-break the masses, and look down upon the masses as their property and slaves. Thus, what most people conceive of 'freedom' is only a falser, lesser form of freedom. It is "freedom", relative to what has been taken from birth, and then sold back to the masses. Real, actual freedom in life, becomes rarer as land and natural resources across the world become more and more privatized and monopolized. It becomes harder as time goes on, for "just anybody" to rise up, or even take a small section for himself.

Right you are Wizard!
One way to help the deluded masses is reportage, novels, and theatre that portray individuals who have not lost or who have rediscovered their 'souls'.

LOL But it is ALL of 'you', adult human beings, who are THE SLAVES here. So, which individual would you USE to portray. It is ALL of 'you', adults, individually AND collectively, who ARE 'the ENSLAVED masses'. The reason ALL of 'you' are DELUDED is because of your VERY OWN, individual and collective, and continual, DISHONESTY, from the abuse that 'you' ALL went through as children, and from the love of money that 'you' ALL have now.

And, the BEST thing for 'humanity', itself, is for 'you', a DELUDED mass of adult human beings, is to HELP "yourselves", FIRST, BEFORE 'you' even begin wanting to help "others". But, 'you', individual adults, OBVIOUSLY, have NOT YET LEARNED HOW to HELP "your" 'self', properly AND correctly. Which is all perfectly understandable since absolutely EVERY thing 'you', individually and collectively, have achieved for "yourselves" has come from LEARNING, which a lot of has come from making MISTAKES, which 'you' continually 'TRY TO' AVOID, and the Truest and BEST WAY to LEARN NEW things is to be PREPARED to make mistakes, to be-come Truly OPEN, and TO BE Truly Wanting to LEARN more and anew.

How to BECOME Truly 'liberated', and thus Truly FREE, has ALREADY been DISCOVERED, and this KNOWLEDGE is READILY AVAILABLE. But only for those who are Truly INTERESTED in OBTAINING and LEARNING this 'knowledge' as well.

[Age]

Domestication of man. To make him willingly accept the leash. It's hard, long, dirty work. Can't just work on his body: gotta work on his spirit. He must be broken, demoralized, made to question his certainties (that he is free, is a free will, is his own; that he has a right to his, and no other's, life, liberty, and property; that he is sumthin' more than, sumthin' other than, a smart ape; that he is a moral being).

Break him and he'll accept all manner of atrocity, and he'll accept the leash.

I agree, and furthermore, there are many traditions throughout the world among the "elite", who maintain educational systems about how to manipulate and control, buck-break the masses, and look down upon the masses as their property and slaves. Thus, what most people conceive of 'freedom' is only a falser, lesser form of freedom. It is "freedom", relative to what has been taken from birth, and then sold back to the masses. Real, actual freedom in life, becomes rarer as land and natural resources across the world become more and more privatized and monopolized. It becomes harder as time goes on, for "just anybody" to rise up, or even take a small section for himself.

Right you are Wizard!
One way to help the deluded masses is reportage, novels, and theatre that portray individuals who have not lost or who have rediscovered their 'souls'.

See, absolutely NO child 'needs' 'discipline' AT ALL,

Age, when you say crap like this, it demonstrates to me that you have no experience supervising or being responsible of children aged 3-4 on a playground. I was a teacher assistant for a summer in college. All children need discipline, some more than others, or they'll bully and steal from each-other. Infants and children are menaces. Your false presumption, that humanity is naturally-automatically morally good and righteous, is just as wrong as you can get about life.

You need to rethink your entire world view.

I agree with Wizard. There are situations for instance in the playground, or on the sportsfield where training i.e. not education proper, is appropriate.

Firstly, and just so that we are ALL AWARE here, "wizard22's" PRESUMPTION of what my views are around 'this' is TOTALLY Wrong.

Secondly, 'training', teaching, guidance, and showing IS NEEDED, 'discipline' IS NOT.

And, let us NOT FORGET that UNTIL CLARITY IS SOUGHT OUT and OBTAINED, FIRST, ALL ASSUMPTIONS made by ANY of 'you' could be False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect.

[Age]

That helps wake rare souls up to their condition; I am not under the delusion though that the masses can or want to wake up. Few can handle, or would even want to, the weight of responsibility that freedom brings. The freer you are, the more you are forced to understand the conditions of that freedom. "With great power, comes great responsibility".

'you' say this like 'you' are Truly FREE "wizard22". Is this what 'you' BELIEVE is true?

I think the best avenues for freedom in the future, is to open up new frontier spaces and societies, through space exploration and colonization.

All this would do is just make the area bigger in which 'you' ENSLAVED beings could live and 'prosper' in.

I suggest that 'you' ACTUALLY FREE "yourselves" FIRST, and then BEGIN exploring the backyard more.

On Earth, humanity will be fighting more and more for fewer scraps and crumbs for millenniums to come. The methods of mind-control and manipulation are already becoming more sophisticated, with artificial intelligence, and offering ever newer and more powerful forms of hedonism and pleasure-seeking. Asceticism is necessary to avoid this. Just say 'No' to drugs? Just say 'No' to the "metaVerse"...

And, just say 'No' to "wizard22", ALSO. "wizard22" is just ANOTHER one 'TRYING TO' CONTROL 'you', by TELLING 'you' WHAT 'you' SHOULD DO and WHAT 'you' SHOULD NOT DO.

Which those CONTROLLING ORDERS only come from 'its' OWN 'individual' views and BELIEFS, which have come from 'its' OWN, individual, TINY, SHELTERED, NARROWED, and VERY SHALLOW 'life experiences', ONLY.

"wizard22" has OBVIOUSLY started a thread, by asking three, supposed, 'simple' questions, on the PRETENSE of SEEKING ANSWERS, but has ENDED UP TELLING people what they SHOULD, and SHOULD NOT, DO. Which, by definition, is TROLLING, in its highest form.

Like ALL 'religions', "wizards" is TROLLING here, LOOKING for people to LURE IN, obtaining THEIR VIEWS, and then DOING what can be done to CHANGE those views in a way to get those people to FOLLOW "wizard22" and 'its' BELIEFS, and TO DO what "wizard22" INSTRUCTS people TO DO. As can be CLEARLY SEEN and OBSERVED here.