Good luck with that Nick! Spinoza did it and very few bother to follow Spinoza's deductive reasoning.
Spinoza was one of those rare ones who understood that everything in our universe is connected. These people do not argue beliefs but try to understand laws which verify meaning.
" Spinoza holds that everything that exists is part of nature, and everything in nature follows the same basic laws. In this perspective, human beings are part of nature, and hence they can be explained and understood in the same way as everything else in nature."
'Human beings' are explained AND understood in that they are made up of the physical, visible, body, AND, the invisible thoughts and emotions. The thinking/feeling part is what the 'being' word means or refers to, and the physical body part is what the 'human' word means or refers to. And, when this is LOOK AT and SEEN from this perspective, then this FITS IN PERFECTLY with absolutely EVERY thing else in FORMING One UNIFIED VIEW and Picture of things.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:26 am
Einstein wrote:
"Humanity is going to require a substantially new way of thinking if it is going to survive. The basic laws of the universe are simple, but because our senses are limited, we can’t grasp them."
Senses, themselves, are NOT limited. But because the human body, individually and collectively, is minute, relative to the Universe, Itself, the LIMIT to which the physical senses, can sense, is just NOT as far reaching as some might prefer. However, UNDERSTANDING and/or GRASPING 'knowledge' is UNLIMITED, and this is WHY thee One and ONLY True Picture of Life, ALL-THERE-IS can be and has ALREADY been GRASPED, and UNDERSTOOD.
This is NOT to say that ALL there is to learn and know has ALREADY been learnt and known, but, rather, by LOOKING AT 'things' from a, relatively, NEW WAY of LOOKING and SEEING 'things', then a WHOLE DIFFERENT and FULL Picture is SEEN, and thus KNOWN, CRYSTAL CLEARLY I will add.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:26 am
That's the problem. When contemplation of laws is ignored in favor of arguing beliefs based on ignorance, what is possible other than what we see?
As I continually SAY, if one BELIEVES that they HAVE or KNOW the truth ALREADY, then they are BLIND, and DEAF, to what is ACTUALLY and IRREFUTABLY True. So, instead of 'trying to' argue or fight for what one ALREADY BELIEVES is true I recommend that they instead become OPEN, AGAIN, and REMAIN Truly OPEN, ALWAYS. That way that one can continue LEARNING and SEEING anew, AND more.
The physical, visible, part of the Universe works in just ONE WAY. This 'law' is VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY to understand and KNOW. In fact WHAT thee Universe IS, EXACTLY, and HOW the Universe works, EXACTLY, REALLY does NOT get much more SIMPLER and EASIER to understand, and KNOW.
"To restore to science as a whole, for mathematics as well as psychology and sociology, the sense of its origin and veritable destiny as a bridge leading toward God---not by diminishing, but by increasing precision in demonstration, verification and supposition---that would indeed be a task worth accomplishing." Simone Weil
Simone understood what both Einstein and Spinoza did; that science has the potential to reveal the truths the heart is searching for. But like Einstein suggests, our senses limit us.
Because of WHO and WHAT thee 'I' IS, EXACTLY, the Truth/s are WITHIN, and one only needs to LOOK WITHIN to find the answer/s, which, supposedly, the 'heart' is searching for.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:26 am
Of course I am partial to Gurdjieff. I would never want to be without the complimentary nature of science and the essence of religion I have been fortunate to learn.
But there are those, past and present, still capable of deductive logic serving the awakening of humanity and freedom from Plato's Cave. There is hope.
HOW to create thee eternal and Truly PEACEFUL and HARMONIOUS 'world', which is about to come, for those of 'you' in the days when this is being written, is one of the most SIMPLEST and EASIEST 'things' TO DO.
'you', adult human beings, JUST NEED TO LEARN a NEW WAY of LOOKING AT and SEEING 'things', and NOT much else.
Age, We are making progress. You wrote”
The physical, visible, part of the Universe works in just ONE WAY. This 'law' is VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY to understand and KNOW. In fact WHAT thee Universe IS, EXACTLY, and HOW the Universe works, EXACTLY, REALLY does NOT get much more SIMPLER and EASIER to understand, and KNOW.
But using deductive reason can you explain how our conscious ineffable source or the ONE, devolves by emanations from itself to produce every lawful manifestations of itself within itself? The ONE IS and all things EXISTING simultaneously as well within the PROCESS of creation.
It may be simple but who understands how the ONE lawfully produces everything?
Because of WHO and WHAT thee 'I' IS, EXACTLY, the Truth/s are WITHIN, and one only needs to LOOK WITHIN to find the answer/s, which, supposedly, the 'heart' is searching for.
But what is “I”?
Some people believe that they are God. I hope you don’t believe this. But what is your “I”?
„It is because of my wretchedness that I am "I." It is on account of the wretchedness of the universe that, in a sense, God is "I" (that is to say a person).“ — Simone Weil
„Knowing God without knowing our wretchedness leads to pride. Knowing our wretchedness without knowing God leads to despair. Knowing Jesus Christ is the middle course, because in him we find both God and our wretchedness.“ — Blaise Pascal, Pensées
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:14 pm
You really are a devil, aren't you? Your entire game is based in psychological subterfuge and manipulation.
Interesting.
I'm the guy who wants nobody to go to Hell...and I'm "the Devil," am I?
Interesting inversion of values. At most, it seems as if you want to consign everybody to death, or soul-extinction, or endless reincarnated suffering on the wheel of samsara, perhaps? Or maybe you have a greater interest in them paying attention to you now, and it's not so much of a concern what the outcome is for them later; is that possible?
My kindest reading of that has to be that you're so concerned with their present state of tranquility that you would be content to let them go...simply to wherever it is they may go. But either way, I can't see that you have much concern for the disposition of their eternal souls.
But I'm "the Devil," you say?
Strange "devil" that insists that as many people as possible should be saved...
I said 'a devil' and devil was not capitalized. You are devious and in that sense devilish. All who encounter you discover the same thing. How do youexplain that to yourself?
It is because you are so entrenched in your highly dogmatic and structured views that you cannot, it seems, understand mine, which are far less dogmatic and far less entrenched.
My metaphysical views -- which are and can only be speculations because I do not and I think I cannot have direct knowledge -- are more similar to metaphysical views that are non-Christian. I have determined that Christianity is defective in certain senses. It reduces complex things to simple binaries. It confuses a 'picture' or a composition for 'reality'. A picture cannot diagram reality. A picture is just an allusion, an aid to visualization if you will.
This has a function though, and I recognize that function (of reduction). By simplification and reduction the ideological tool is less cumbersome to wield. But in my own view 'the actual truth' is more complex, and far more nuanced.
It seems more logically consistent (if the application of logic has any value) to propose that even if, as with some of the Eastern pictures, a given soul, through sin and error, winds up in a *hell-realm*, that the sojourn in that realm is not permanent, but is a place ultimately for learning.
If we ourselves, in our own lives, learn when we are forced to face the consequences of our own actions (and what bitter lessons these often are), there is really no other way that *life* has to get through to us. I assume that a person might spend an entire life leaning ONE BASIC LESSON. Often, when we listen to old people, they say things that indicate that life has taught them certain things, often very basic things. Arrogant youth hardly is able to listen.
But when you've been through the ringer (which metaphor I guess is for the old-style squeeze mechanism that removes water from washed clothes?) you will have important lessons to share.
The gravest sinner, I suppose, will have to live out, in one way or another, the consequence of his own acts. That is, to deeply feel what it means to have suffered the hurt or harm that he or she did to some other. How could I possibly know what *God* (the God that we are theoretically speaking about) has in store for such a person?
But the real question is What has God had in store for me? Because my life has only been about 'learning lessons'. On a moral level -- or am I just lucky? -- I have had to face each and every error. How? It has to do with how memory and moral sense plays back to me events, deeds, actions in a loop that I cannot escape from. And I assume that much the same applies to other people.
We are all living in *our spiritual world*. And if there is an intelligence that reigns or oversees this realm, and I believe there is, then it is a question of *tuning-in* -- if one is inclined to do so. Some are inclined, but then some just keep running, and they numb themselves to the sort of *realizations* (self-confrontation) that I am talking about (and assume everyone here knows exactly what I mean!)
So it seems to me that we are in a *world* that is half heaven and half hell. As Aldous Huxley said: the world we are in could be a hell another being was liberated from. In just one tiny second our relatively pleasant existence changes character! We can commit act that turn another person's relatively pleasant experience into a hell. And right now, today, as all are aware, hellish possibilities begin to intrude (onto the world-scene and into both imagined and manifest reality).
I say that a god who would devise an eternal hell-realm is a logically inconsistent god. And it seems to me that the imagination of such an eternal realm is man's vengeance-dream -- because men, ourselves, we are that perverse!
The vision, the metaphysical dream, of a soul that traverses planes of existence does, to me, seem more logical. But as I once said to you I can conceive that a given soul could, in what would amount to a split second for us (in out time-signature) could live a dozen lives. Since time itself is a relative experience.
So let's suppose a grave sinner who just died. And let us suppose an ultimately omniscient (and omnipotent) god who is actually concerned for that soul in exactly the sense that a Christian says God Loves You! What could that omnipotent god do? The answer? Cause that soul to live a life or a series of lives where he or she is forced to live out the utterly bitter experience that he or she unconsciously meted out to another.
It is entirely within the realm of the possible. And in fact, in fact, this is what happens to people who are forced to meditate deeply on their errors, sins and omissions. Think of a genuinely penitent person in prison who really does see and understand what they had done. It happens. It must happen! Because it happens to all of us in one way or another.
I built my prison stone by stone
How many useless knots I tied
I dug the footfalls in my path
How many useless tears I cried
Here to build in worlds of beauty
No-one made a joy a duty
No-one, no-one but me
Here to build in worlds of glory
No-one made my sad sad story
No-one, no-one but me
IC continues:
Or maybe you have a greater interest in them paying attention to you now, and it's not so much of a concern what the outcome is for them later; is that possible?
My kindest reading of that has to be that you're so concerned with their present state of tranquility that you would be content to let them go...simply to wherever it is they may go.
You are free, of course, to make the assertions and suppositions that you wish. And I do grasp the utility of the threat of immediate and impending consequence ("In just a few short years you will be in hell and then you'll regret you didn't listen to me!" as you often say).
No, my suggestion is to take everything very seriously. As serious as one is able to. But once one has come to that realization the real task begins at that point!
My kindest reading
There is, it seems, such a thing as an *insufferable jackass*!
In Simone Weil's life, religion played a dominant role in the years following the mystical epiphanies she experienced in 1938. Long before, however, her wish to partake in the suffering of the distressed led her to a life-style of extreme austerity. It was under these circumstances that, in 1937, Simone Weil became increasingly attracted to Christianity, a religion she considered to be in its true essence a religion of slaves, and therefore in utter contradiction to the actual form it had taken in history. On this assumption, Simone Weil objected against Catholicism -- the denomination she knew best and respected the most --[21] that it had ended by perverting itself for the sake of power. The historical "double stain" on the Church that Simone Weil denounces originates in the fact that Israel imposed on Christian believers the acceptance of the Old Testament and its almighty God, and that Rome chose Christianity as the religion of the Empire.[22] Despite its universal redemptive mission, the Church became from its very beginnings heir of Jewish nationalism and of the totalitarianism inherent in Imperial Rome. As the spiritual locus in which both traditions of power displaced the religion of powerless slaves, Christianity became the actual negation of its own foundational leitmotiv: the self-annulment of divine omnipotence by the godly act of kenosis or self-abasement.
I'm not asking you to believe this but is it possible that the church perverted itself for the sake of power as described above? Is there anything wrong with questioning?
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:56 pm
But the real question is What has God had in store for me?
Here's a better one: "What is it I am storing up for myself."
"...because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will repay each person according to his deeds..." (Romans 2:5-6)
That's not a threat. That's a Biblical promise. There WILL be a judgment, and God WILL Judge. And He's told us that in advance, as you can see.
"In just a few short years you will be in hell and then you'll regret you didn't listen to me!" as you often say.
"Often"? "You say"?
In fact, these are words I have NEVER said. Not once. You may, in fact, never regret if you don't listen to me. I'm nobody special. And me, I have my own accounting to make; I'm not responsible for yours.
But what if you don't listen when God speaks?
Don't look at me. I'm just telling you what He says.
And is that you? Well, only you can say. I'm not in favour of you doing that. But your choice will be your choice, of course.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:33 pm
I have responses, but I don't see you're in any frame of mind to hear them, frankly.
You condescending git.
In any case, I'm not the only reader here. If you have responses, then share them for the benefit of those readers even if not for mine.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:33 pm
I gave you two postulates concerning God; do they seem to you to summarize the situation adequately?
I told you: I'm not interested in playing your pseudo-Socratic controlling game. (Moreover, I've responded to those postulates already). Other than that, I make no demands as to how you honestly and directly answer the question which you continue to avoid. Again, here it is:
Is it eitherlovingorjust to condemn a person, for finite crimes or even simply for mere inheritance of some supposed "original sin", to an eternity of a hell which is, in your own words, "considerably worse than most people can even imagine"?
Given, though, that your game here is one of avoidance, via pretending that the question as a whole is "badly framed", I choose to present it in broken down form, as an argument. Now, evasive as you are, explain which specific premises you reject, and why.
The argument for the fundamental incoherence of Christianity: an unloving loving and unjust just God
God is fundamentally (essentially) loving and just [Christian premise].
God condemns to eternal (infinite), unimaginable torment any person who, in living his/her finite life, has sinned and refused to accept Jesus Christ as his/her saviour [Christian premise].
It is neither loving nor just to condemn a person to eternal (infinite), unimaginable torment no matter what they have done or chosen in a finite life [unconditional premise].
All of the actions and choices of a fundamentally (essentially) loving and just Being are loving and just [unconditional premise].
Not all of the actions and choices of God are loving, and not all of them are just [from #2 and #3 above].
God is neither fundamentally (essentially) loving nor just [from #4 and #5 above].
At this point, we have a contradiction (#1 versus #6). Given that none of the unconditional premises are false, it must be that one or more of the Christian premises, which are fundamental to Christianity, are false. Thus, Christianity is fundamentally incoherent.
Go.
Last edited by Harry Baird on Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:12 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:13 am
I simply do not think there can be one life only. One span. That idea is inconsistent with an immortal soul.
An immortal soul is only our reconstruction serving as a bridge into an afterlife. There is nothing more to it than that. In that sense it has purpose and meaning for us, or those who need it. The dead neither require nor desire any such sequel. The concept of an immortal soul is as inherently ridiculous as the biblical mandate one must believe in Jesus to be saved. It never ceases to amaze that by virtue of being human an extra dimension of existence should be appended beyond what is given...being that part which insists on having more. What is your 70 or 80 years worth in a universe which has billions more to go? Weird that one can simply incubate an immortal soul which commences in mortality whose remnants, once defunct, are prelude to an endless life however it may manifest. An infinitesimal incipient to the eternal...or is there some other explanation as to what immortal soul is meant to denote?
Spinoza was one of those rare ones who understood that everything in our universe is connected. These people do not argue beliefs but try to understand laws which verify meaning.
'Human beings' are explained AND understood in that they are made up of the physical, visible, body, AND, the invisible thoughts and emotions. The thinking/feeling part is what the 'being' word means or refers to, and the physical body part is what the 'human' word means or refers to. And, when this is LOOK AT and SEEN from this perspective, then this FITS IN PERFECTLY with absolutely EVERY thing else in FORMING One UNIFIED VIEW and Picture of things.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:26 am
Einstein wrote:
Senses, themselves, are NOT limited. But because the human body, individually and collectively, is minute, relative to the Universe, Itself, the LIMIT to which the physical senses, can sense, is just NOT as far reaching as some might prefer. However, UNDERSTANDING and/or GRASPING 'knowledge' is UNLIMITED, and this is WHY thee One and ONLY True Picture of Life, ALL-THERE-IS can be and has ALREADY been GRASPED, and UNDERSTOOD.
This is NOT to say that ALL there is to learn and know has ALREADY been learnt and known, but, rather, by LOOKING AT 'things' from a, relatively, NEW WAY of LOOKING and SEEING 'things', then a WHOLE DIFFERENT and FULL Picture is SEEN, and thus KNOWN, CRYSTAL CLEARLY I will add.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:26 am
That's the problem. When contemplation of laws is ignored in favor of arguing beliefs based on ignorance, what is possible other than what we see?
As I continually SAY, if one BELIEVES that they HAVE or KNOW the truth ALREADY, then they are BLIND, and DEAF, to what is ACTUALLY and IRREFUTABLY True. So, instead of 'trying to' argue or fight for what one ALREADY BELIEVES is true I recommend that they instead become OPEN, AGAIN, and REMAIN Truly OPEN, ALWAYS. That way that one can continue LEARNING and SEEING anew, AND more.
The physical, visible, part of the Universe works in just ONE WAY. This 'law' is VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY to understand and KNOW. In fact WHAT thee Universe IS, EXACTLY, and HOW the Universe works, EXACTLY, REALLY does NOT get much more SIMPLER and EASIER to understand, and KNOW.
Simone understood what both Einstein and Spinoza did; that science has the potential to reveal the truths the heart is searching for. But like Einstein suggests, our senses limit us.
Because of WHO and WHAT thee 'I' IS, EXACTLY, the Truth/s are WITHIN, and one only needs to LOOK WITHIN to find the answer/s, which, supposedly, the 'heart' is searching for.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:26 am
Of course I am partial to Gurdjieff. I would never want to be without the complimentary nature of science and the essence of religion I have been fortunate to learn.
But there are those, past and present, still capable of deductive logic serving the awakening of humanity and freedom from Plato's Cave. There is hope.
HOW to create thee eternal and Truly PEACEFUL and HARMONIOUS 'world', which is about to come, for those of 'you' in the days when this is being written, is one of the most SIMPLEST and EASIEST 'things' TO DO.
'you', adult human beings, JUST NEED TO LEARN a NEW WAY of LOOKING AT and SEEING 'things', and NOT much else.
Age, We are making progress. You wrote”
The physical, visible, part of the Universe works in just ONE WAY. This 'law' is VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY to understand and KNOW. In fact WHAT thee Universe IS, EXACTLY, and HOW the Universe works, EXACTLY, REALLY does NOT get much more SIMPLER and EASIER to understand, and KNOW.
But using deductive reason can you explain how our conscious ineffable source or the ONE, devolves by emanations from itself to produce every lawful manifestations of itself within itself?
NO one can explain 'that', which is 'ineffable'. This is because 'that', which is 'ineffable', by definition is NOT able to be explained, expressed, nor described with words. However, I can, very easily and very simply explain HOW there are, perceived, manifestations within thee One Source.
And, if, and when, your questions are far more specific, then I am able to answer them far more accurately and correctly, for you.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:31 pm
The ONE IS and all things EXISTING simultaneously as well within the PROCESS of creation.
The 'PROCESS of creation' is just a 'reactive process' and this 'reaction' process results in 'evolution', which is 'what' causes 'creation', itself.
A PROCESS by the way that is an eternal process appearing HERE, NOW.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:31 pm
It may be simple but who understands how the ONE lawfully produces everything?
Because of WHO and WHAT thee 'I' IS, EXACTLY, the Truth/s are WITHIN, and one only needs to LOOK WITHIN to find the answer/s, which, supposedly, the 'heart' is searching for.
But what is “I”?
'What' is, or am, 'I' is thee physical and visibly seen One, infinite and eternal, Universe, Itself.
'Who' 'I' is a bit different, although connected.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:31 pm
Some people believe that they are God.
Okay.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:31 pm
I hope you don’t believe this.
I neither believe nor disbelieve ANY thing, (except for one thing).
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:31 pm
But what is your “I”?
It is NOT 'my' 'I'. And, 'I' am thee 'Thing' that I just explained to 'you' last time you asked me, 'What is 'I'?'
„It is because of my wretchedness that I am "I." It is on account of the wretchedness of the universe that, in a sense, God is "I" (that is to say a person).“ — Simone Weil
„Knowing God without knowing our wretchedness leads to pride. Knowing our wretchedness without knowing God leads to despair. Knowing Jesus Christ is the middle course, because in him we find both God and our wretchedness.“ — Blaise Pascal, Pensées
As I say and write here;
Not until one LOOKS AT and is Truly Honest about ALL of the Wrong that 'they/we' ALL ACTUALLY DO, AND are continually seeking out to CHANGE, for the better, then 'our' wretchedness STAYS and REMAINS.
However, WHEN UNCOVERING 'who' and 'what' 'we', collectively, Truly ARE, then KNOWING God becomes consciously, and irrefutably, KNOWN.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:39 pm
It's not a game. It was a conversation.
Now, it's not.
It was never a conversation. It was my proof to you of the incoherence of the belief system upon which you base your disgusting threats to other forum members, including me, of eternal damnation - and of the perverse blasphemy against God which this constitutes - and my granting to you of the opportunity to respond, honestly and directly, to that proof.
I've now provided that proof much more explicitly as such: as, in the form of, rather than a challenging question, that of a semi-formal argument. I continue to challenge you to respond to it. You continue to avoid responding to that challenge.
Which premise(s) do you think are false, and why? Here both the original question and the argument based upon it are again, to make sure you understand that I do not accept your evasive non-response, that nor should anybody else, and that, should you continue to fail to respond given the open opportunity, the argument remains unchallenged by neither you nor anybody who shares your beliefs, and thus, by default, should be considered to be both soundandcogent. Thus, any future threats that you make of eternal damnation can be referred back to this argument, to your eternal shame.
The question: Is it eitherlovingorjust to condemn a person, for finite crimes or even simply for mere inheritance of some supposed "original sin", to an eternity of a hell which is, in your own words, "considerably worse than most people can even imagine"?
The corresponding argument:
God is fundamentally (essentially) loving and just [Christian premise].
God condemns to eternal (infinite), unimaginable torment any person who, in living his/her finite life, has sinned and refused to accept Jesus Christ as his/her saviour [Christian premise].
It is neither loving nor just to condemn a person to eternal (infinite), unimaginable torment no matter what they have done or chosen in a finite life [unconditional premise].
All of the actions and choices of a fundamentally (essentially) loving and just Being are loving and just [unconditional premise].
Not all of the actions and choices of God are loving, and not all of them are just [from #2 and #3 above].
God is neither fundamentally (essentially) loving nor just [from #4 and #5 above].
At this point, we have a contradiction (#1 versus #6). Given that none of the unconditional premises are false, it must be that one or more of the Christian premises, which are fundamental to Christianity, are false. Thus, Christianity is fundamentally incoherent.
Last edited by Harry Baird on Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Some fuel for the fire, found after 5 seconds on duck duck go (search: is hell forever?)...
-----
The Bible teaches that hell will not be forever. Let’s examine the Scriptures and some questions that are raised about hell:
1-Hell will go out.
“Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it” (Isaiah 47:14). “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth.” “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away” (Revelation 21:1, 4). The Bible teaches that in God’s new kingdom all “former things” will be passed away. Hell, being one of the former things, is included.
2-Is there an eternal torment?
This phrase” does not appear in the Bible.
3-What about the phrase “unquenchable fire” in Jeremiah 17:27?
Unquenchable fire is fire that cannot be put out, but which goes out when it has turned everything to ashes. Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire, and in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21, the Bible says this fire burned the city “to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah” and left it desolate. Yet, we know this fire went out, because Jerusalem is not burning today.
4-What does “eternal fire” in Jude 7 mean?
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned them “into ashes” as a warning to “those that after should live ungodly” (2 Peter 2:6). We know that these cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned up. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.
5-What about the phrase “everlasting punishment” in Matthew 25:46?
Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.
6-What does the phrase “for ever and ever” in Revelation 14:11 mean?
“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” The term “for ever,” as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. In Jonah 2:6, “forever” means “three days and nights.” In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means “10 generations.” In the case of man, this means “as long as he lives” or “until death” (1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalms 48:14). Therefore, the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death.
7-Is God a torturer?
The teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism than any other invention of the devil. It is an attack upon the loving character of a loving heavenly Father.
8-Is God unjust?
God who will punish people throughout eternity because of a life of sin that lasted about 70 years, more or less.
9- The punishment for sin is death, not everlasting life in hell fire.
“God … gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). The wicked “perish,” or receive “death.” The righteous receive “everlasting life.”
10-No one is in hell right now.
Sinners will go to hell at the end of time at the Judgement “So shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire” (Matthew 13:40-42).
11- Hell is not eternal.
If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God “only hath immortality” (1 Timothy 6:16). When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, an angel was posted to guard the tree of life so that sinners would not eat of the tree and “live for ever” (Genesis 3:22-24). The teaching that sinners are immortal in hell originated with Satan and is completely untrue (Genesis 3:4). God prevented the immortality of sin when it entered this earth by guarding the tree of life. An eternal hell of torment would perpetuate sin.
12-The wicked will be obliterated.
The Bible says the wicked will suffer “death” (Romans 6:23), “destruction” (Job 21:30), “shall perish” (Psalms 37:20), will “burn” up (Malachi 4:1), “shall be destroyed together” (Psalms 37:38), will “consume away” (Psalms 37:20), “shall be cut off” (Psalms 37:9), and “shall be slain” (Psalms 62:3). God will “destroy” them (Psalms 145:20), and “fire shall devour them” (Psalms 21:9). All of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.
13- Sinners will be punished each according to his deeds.
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Revelation 22:12). “That servant, which knew his lord’s will, and … neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes” (Luke 12:47, 48). This means some will receive greater punishment than others, based upon their works.
14-Destroying sinners is foreign to God’s nature.
“As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?” (Ezekiel 33:11). Destroying the wicked is a strange act to God “For the Lord shall rise up … that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act” (Isaiah 28:21).
15-God will end hell.
“He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time” (Nahum 1:9). “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” (Isaiah 65:17).
-----
Is hell real? Is hell really forever?
Many people love the idea of heaven but hate the idea of hell. Many people believe in heaven; fewer believe in hell. The Bible, however, is clear that hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. Hell is not simply, as many would have it, a place where only people like Hitler wind up. The truth is that all of us deserve hell because we have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). God has declared that the just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, then sin against an eternal being deserves eternal punishment. Physical death, then, can't be a sufficient payment for eternal sin. The payment must also be infinite and eternal.
That hell is a dreadful place is undeniable. The conditions in hell are described throughout the Bible as "eternal fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torment" and "fire" (Luke 16:23-24), "eternal destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10-11), and a "lake of burning sulfur" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46).
Everyone lives forever. The only question is one of location. The righteous, those whose sin has been exchanged on the cross for the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), experience neverending bliss in heaven. The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God in hell, where they will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5).
Yes, hell is most definitely real, a very real place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever. The only escape from the reality of hell is to run to the cross where we can gain forgiveness for sin. Only an infinite sacrifice can pay the penalty for infinite sin against an infinite God. Either the infinite God in flesh, Jesus Christ, pays for our sin in the one-time sacrifice on the cross, or we pay for it infinitely in hell. There is no other option. Those who would deny the reality of hell should ponder carefully this statement. Hell is real, it's a horrifying place, and eternity is a long, long time.
-----
Will God punish sinners forever in hell?
February 13, 2013 by OliviasOutlook
Share
Tweet
Subscribe
The good news about hell is that it’s not forever. Further, there is not one single soul in hellfire today. Unlike popular belief, people will receive their rewards and punishments at the Resurrection Day at the end of the world (Matthew 13:40–42; John 12:48)–not when they die.
God would not burn a murderer who died 3,000 years ago 3,000 years longer than one who dies and deserves punishment for the same sin today. That would not be fair.
“The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28, 29.)
Both the wicked and the righteous that have died are in their graves “sleeping” until the resurrection (John 11:11-13.)
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Revelation 22:12.)
Sinners will receive punishment according to their works (Luke 12:48). That certainly would not be forever. If God tortured the sinners throughout eternity, He would be more heartless than men have ever been. The truth is that an eternal hell of torment would be hell for God also who loved humans to the point of sacrificing His Son to save them (John 3:16). “Eternal hell fire” is such a horrible theory and a slander against our loving Father’s character.
The devil will also come to an end:
“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:10). “I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. … And never shall thou be any more.” (Ezekiel 28:18, 19.)
The work of God has always been to save rather than destroy. The work of destroying the wicked in hellfire is so foreign to God’s nature that the Bible calls it His “strange act” (Isaiah 28:21.)
“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain.” (Revelation 21: 4.)
But some say the Bible talks of “everlasting fire” for the wicked. What does that mean? Let’s allow the Bible to explain itself:
The term “for ever,” as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. It is like the word “tall,” which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains.
In Jonah 2:6, “for ever” means “three days and nights” (Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, “for ever” means “10 generations.” In the case of man, “for ever” means “as long as he lives” or “until death.” (1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.)
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7,) and that fire turned them “into ashes” as a warning to “those that after should live ungodly,” (2 Peter 2:6.) These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned out. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3.) The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.
Also, Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire, and in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21 the Bible says this fire burned the city “to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah” and left it desolate. Yet we know this fire went out, because Jerusalem is not burning today. To quench means to extinguish or put out. No one will be able to put out the fire of hell. So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out. And God will create a new heaven and a new earth where the saints will live forever in joy and peace (Isaiah 65:17; Revelation 21:3,4).
The real tragedy of hell is in missing heaven. Heaven is God’s free gift for you today.
-----
Is hell fair?
A common objection raised against Christianity and the character of God is, "How can it be fair for God to send people to be punished in hell for all eternity?" It's interesting to note that the concept of an eternal hell has detractors in both Christian and non-Christian circles.
For example, the well-known Christian apologist and writer C. S. Lewis wrote, "There is no doctrine I would more willingly remove from Christianity than [hell], if it lay in my power…" Agreeing with Lewis that hell is an unpleasant thought is the skeptic Bertrand Russell, who had this to say about Jesus and the subject of hell: "There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and it is that He believed in Hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. . . . I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hell-fire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty."
Is Russell right? Is eternal punishment in a place like hell overkill for temporal sins committed in this life? It's a good bet that a lot of people would answer, "Yes!" but what matters most is what God's Word has to say on the matter.
First, where the character and nature of God are concerned, the Bible makes it clear that He is an omni-benevolent (i.e., an all-good) and righteous Judge. In his conversation with God concerning the impending judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham said, "Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?" (Genesis 18:25). David simply says in the Psalms, "and he judges the world with righteousness; he judges the peoples with uprightness" (Psalm 9:8).
However, while it's true that God is all good, His nature also includes justice. Because of that, He created a realm that was designed to enact justice on those who violate His laws. Hell was originally created not for humanity, but for the devil and the angels who joined him in his rebellion against God, a fact Jesus confirms: "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'" (Matthew 25:41).
However, hell was extended to also include those from the human race that would follow the devil's rebellion. Describing an end-time judgment, Jesus acknowledged this fact: "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.' . . . Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46).
Still, the questions must be asked: why does God do this, and how can a loving God actually carry out such a sentence? Through careful thought, prayer, and a study of the Scriptures, a number of reasons emerge as to why God created an eternal hell for those who reject Him:
• God's character demands an eternal hell. Only an eternal punishment is fitting for sins committed against an eternal God. Even in this life, it is recognized that a crime must be gauged according to the worth and dignity of the person it is committed against. As an example, if a person threatens someone's life, it is not uncommon for the authorities to tell the victim they cannot act until the suspect does. But let that same individual make a threat against the President of the United States, and the law will be much swifter, more exacting, and harsher. Because all sin is vertical before it is horizontal, an eternal punishment is fitting for crimes perpetrated against an everlasting Creator.
• God's justice demands an eternal hell. It is a fact that not all evil is punished in this life, and, therefore, a punishment in the next life – which is eternal – must exist.
• God's sovereignty demands an eternal hell. Without hell, there would be no final victory over evil.
• Human dignity demands an eternal hell. A person can willingly choose to follow or reject God, knowing what consequences await. God respects the person's dignity in allowing him to make that choice.
• The cross of Christ implies an eternal hell. Why would Christ suffer and endure all that He did if there is not an unthinkable punishment awaiting those who sin against God?
Regarding how a loving God can send people to hell, we should understand two things. The first is the distinction between what is sometimes called the "antecedent" and "consequent" will of God. Thomas Aquinas explains the important difference between the two this way: "Hence it may be said of a just judge, that antecedently he wills all men to live; but consequently wills the murderer to be hanged. In the same way God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned, as His justice exacts."
The second thing to understand is the difference between "want" and "will." Does anyone "want" to go to hell? No. But do people "will" to go to hell? Unfortunately, the answer is, yes, many do.
Jesus addressed people in His day who "willed" to go to hell when He said, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life" (John 5:39-40, emphasis added). C. S. Lewis stated the matter this way: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell chose it."
The fact is, there is a way to escape hell and the sin that brings such a terrible judgment upon us. God is indeed justice, but He is also love, and in His love He took our sins upon Himself at the cross. Christ paid the judgment in full so that we don't have to face hell. Paul writes, "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" (Romans 5:8–9).
On an American troopship, the soldiers crowded around their chaplain, asking, "Do you believe in hell?" "I do not", replied the chaplain. "Well, then, will you please resign, for if there is no hell, we do not need you, and if there is a hell, we do not wish to be led astray."
If there is no hell, then there is no need for a cross or a Savior. But hell is very real, and as Christian author Os Guinness says, "For some, Hell is simply a truth realized too late." It is a sobering fact that those who choose to reject Jesus in this life will have their request honored in the next by a loving God who will indeed acquiesce to their wishes and send them to the choice they themselves have made.
-----
Is God fair?
When people ask if God is fair, they are often asking from a human perspective if God deals with people in the way they deserve. From that perspective, no, God is not fair. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory (Romans 3:23) and deserve death as a result (Romans 6:23). Yet God has provided salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9) to anyone who believes in His Son, Jesus Christ (John 3:16; Acts 4:12). Far more than being fair, God is gracious (giving us not what we deserve, but what we need) and merciful (not giving us the punishment we do deserve). He is also just (morally consistent or fair) and righteous.
Justice is served in salvation because Jesus paid the price for our sins. We were gifted with grace, and He was given just punishment for our inequities (2 Corinthians 5:21; Isaiah 53:5; Hebrews 2:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:54-57). Some ask whether God is just in His offer of salvation to all people. It seems that God is closer to some than to others, and that His salvation is beyond the reach of some. For example, some people are raised in Christian families, and others live in areas where being a Christian results in persecution. How is this fair? Yet Romans 1:20 teaches, "For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." God teaches that no one will have a valid excuse for unbelief, as He has made Himself known to everyone through His creation.
God is also interested in justice on earth. Deuteronomy 10:18 teaches, "He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing." Romans 12:19 says, "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.'"
Not only does God execute justice, He instructs His people regarding fairness as well. The Old Testament is filled with God's instructions to His people to live justly to reflect His justice. Exodus 23:2 instructs, "You shall not fall in with the many to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the many, so as to pervert justice." Verse 6 adds, "You shall not pervert the justice due to your poor in his lawsuit." Deuteronomy 16:19 states, "You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous." God invests much time communicating ways in which His people are to live justly toward Him and one another. This helps us to realize God cares greatly about justice both eternally and temporally.
God has been more than fair in His dealings with people. Despite our sins (Romans 3:23), He has offered forgiveness (1 John 1:9) and eternal life to those who will believe in His Son Jesus (John 3:16). Further, as King and Creator of all things, He can do as He pleases. He is not obligated to treat us as we wish or in ways that we "feel" are fair. Instead, He works all things together for our good (Romans 8:28) as part of His perfect plan.
