compatibilism

[Immanuel Can]

A BigMike monument would be kinda cool.

I foresee something made of granite...big feet, curled fists, a wide open mouth...but nothing above it.

And like Mike's theory, it's most useful application would be as something to catch the pidgeon droppings.

[bobmax]

The non-existence of free will is not easy to accept.

However, the idea that if there is no free will then one is a slave is completely wrong.
We would be slaves to whom?

Because there is no one to maneuver you.
You are simply an expression of what moves the universe.
You do not exist as a stand-alone entity.
But only as a manifestation of the Whole.

You think what you have to think, you decide what you have to decide.
And this happens for everything in the world.

Nothing in the world is for itself.
But it is only an ephemeral manifestation of the One. Ephemeral and yet it refers to the One.
Its essence is the One itself.

And therefore you are truly free.
And you are sure of it when you feel compassion for this painful world.

You are the origin of all things.
You are the unconditional origin.

[Immanuel Can]

The non-existence of free will is not easy to accept.

"Accept"?

Accepting is a cognitive action. It means change. It means opinion counts for something, that it makes a difference.

Determinism says it's impossible to "accept" anything. And nothing ever genuinely "changes" from what it was bound to be anyway. And opinion, like all mental phenomena, is just a result of one's body chemistry at a given moment.

Once again, only what is going to happen is going to happen. "Accept" is an illusion. You can't do both of these: 1. Believe in Determinism, and 2. Tell anybody to "change their beliefs" or "accept" anything.

[iambiguous]

Compatibilism
David Agler

Cereal Case
• Suppose I ate eggs for breakfast.
• I ate eggs because (1) I desired to eat eggs rather than something else and (2) I had power to act on this desire.
• Suppose also that I was determined to eat eggs. Past events along with factors outside of my control shaped the desire: I will want eggs for breakfast

If I am free, then I could have eaten something else. I could have acted otherwise. I could have eaten cereal instead?

But the quandary here always goes deeper. We can pose thought experiments like this...but we have no way of knowing if in posing them that too isn't but another manifestation of the only possible reality. We are always stuck using our brain in order to determine what using our brain actually encompasses. That's why Gods are invented. With Him we can anchor human existence itself in something that transcends human existence. Something that explains human existence. Something that gives human existence meaning and purpose.

Compatibilists: Yes, even though you were determined to eat eggs, if you had desired to eat the cereal and nothing was preventing you given that desire, then you could have eaten the cereal.

Again: as though what we desire is not in turn wholly determined.

That's where some here seem to go though. They focus in on human emotions or human intuition as though they were somehow qualitatively different from human thoughts. But, along with thoughts, where do emotions and "gut feelings" originate if not the brain?

It just seems reasonable to assume that if the human brain is matter and matter interacts with other matter in accordance with its "immutable laws" then nothing that is matter gets excluded. Not until God does reveal Himself and explains existence or science is able to establish beyond all doubt that human brain matter is the one exception to the rule here on planet Earth.

[iambiguous]

"First, they ignore you," Nicholas Klein, an American labor union advocate and attorney, warned in 1914. "Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you."

Or...

"First, they are compelled by the laws of matter to ignore you. Then they are compelled by the laws of matter to ridicule you. And then they are compelled by the laws of matter to attack you and want to burn you. And then they are compelled by the laws of matter to build monuments to you."

And, I suspect, BM will be in complete agreement.

If this is the case, it's a tragic situation.

How, in a world where everything that unfolds, unfolds only as it ever could have, can anything be thought of as tragic? In other words, a world where even if some do think something is tragic, they were never able not to think that?

When a male lion kills a female lion's cubs, is that tragic? Is the slaughterhouse that is nature itself tragic?

Not really. It's just the law of the jungle writ large.

But: when minds evolve into us, words like tragic are invented because minds like ours are very, very different from the minds of lions.

But how different?

That's what the brain scientists are attempting to grasp. And that's when the Immanuel Cans and the henry quirks among us insist it's all [ultimately] about God.

Then those like BigMike...

Clearly, one would have hoped that at least some of you were intelligent enough to recognize when the parts fit together logically and make sense. Unfortunately, reality does not always conform to our desires. I have faith that subsequent generations will be less brainwashed and more intellectually honest than the current one.

Chagrined that all the rest of us don't "get it" as he does. We're all just dumber than he is.

On the other hand, when I suggest his own hardcore determinism includes everything but his own arguments, maybe I am missing a very important point about all this.

Enlighten me.

[bobmax]

Chagrined that all the rest of us don't "get it" as he does. We're all just dumber than he is.

On the other hand, when I suggest his own hardcore determinism includes everything but his own arguments, maybe I am missing a very important point about all this.

Enlighten me.

BigMike is just starting to come home.

By questioning every superstition, he will enter the desert.
Until even the "truth" of the desert itself begins to waver.

Because not even the law of cause-and-effect concatenation is true.

[bobmax]

I see you insist on quoting me.
Since every time I have dealt with you you have confirmed to me that you are in bad faith, I do not read you anymore.

[Immanuel Can]

I see you insist on quoting me.
Since every time I have dealt with you you have confirmed to me that you are in bad faith, I do not read you anymore.

I simply quoted you because it was an idea that was worth challenging, because it was self-contradictory.

You're guilty of an old error. It's called the "ad hominem fallacy." It means that if you don't like what you're hearing, you can shoot the messenger. Unfortunately, what makes it an error is that it doesn't change the question of what he said on a given occasion was true or not.

I have no idea why you suppose I'm "in bad faith." But if you really do, it's still irrelevant to the question of the truth of my claim.

[Iwannaplato]

My only criterion for accepting a proposition as true is that it is logically consistent with everything else I accept as true.

Of course, you are compelled to think it is true and it will seem true. To put this another way, you experience a 'that seems true and logical' quale after your process of thinking about something. You might be right, you might not be, because you are compelled to accept this. That quale is part of what compells your conclusion. Basically here and below you are telling me you trust your reasoning. Who doesn't? It's not an argument. I do believe you think your reasoning is peachy.

It is comparable to assembling a jigsaw puzzle. If a piece does not fit, it is discarded; if it does, it is kept. My truth is not based on faith, but on logic.

You used the word faith to describe your guesses about the future.

[BigMike]

Enlighten me.

I would be glad to.

Everything that takes place is, in fact, inevitable. Human actions are included in "everything" and are thus unavoidable. For example, our nervous system processes nerve signals before they manifest as muscle contractions or movements, all following the laws of physics. But the neural network is not merely a collection of neurons jumbled together arbitrarily. Evolution has optimized our genetic material to enable the owner to respond optimally to their environment. This is the essence of the phrase "survival of the fittest."

This is the reason we even have a brain. It performs the optimization; it solves the optimization problem, if you will, for us. And it is hardwired to do so. As a side note, I would like to mention that the "optimization problem" is always occupied with meeting unmet needs in the Maslow sense.

The great Stephen Hawking observed, "I have noticed that even people who claim everything is predetermined and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road." The experience of having parents and teachers who repeatedly drilled this into our heads eventually made sense to our young minds. The pieces fell into place. Since then, it has influenced our behavior whenever we need to cross the street. We even teach this to our children. It's unfortunate when a child doesn't grasp this rule to the point where they cannot cross the street without thinking about it.

Unfortunately, too many children and others have tragically died as a result of inadequate education in this area. No one can do something that doesn't occur to one. As adults, we need to make sure that these rules are drilled into the kids' heads so they can never forget them. Each time we fail to accomplish this, it breaks my heart. However, the fact that we are determined does not make us all mindless zombies. We can learn. And this learning is comprised of memories that reach back into our past, creating, if you will, a bridge that enables us to recognize patterns. We do not merely exist in the present but in the flow of time. Some of us have also discovered that placing a boulder in a stream will force the water to flow around it. Our experiences, which are physically embedded in our brains, can be used for our own benefit. Thus, the physical universe has given us a glimpse of the future, by extrapolating the past. Use it. This is the best way to meet your present and future needs. Let this knowledge sink in, internalize it, and live a better life.

We are not resigned to "wait and see what happens"; we can simulate potential outcomes in our minds before making the final, optimal decision. Mind you, this final decision is optimal not because our free will says it is but because our brain's logical inferences, entirely determined by synaptic connections, and despite having weaknesses and flaws, tell us that it is the best course of action. It is sad yet inevitable that some people never reach a level of understanding that would improve their lives. Yes, it is bound to happen, but it is still sad.

We are not destined to completely accept whatever occurs without intervening. We are a part of the physical universe. We can influence the outcome through our innate logical abilities, which are also entirely physical, just like every other physical entity that can affect us. The wisest among us learn how to take advantage of this incredible intelligence, which is physically embedded in the internal structure of our brains. As with the dead child in the street, those less fortunate will make mistakes and must deal with the consequences. The savvier individuals will recognize that the happiness of all is to the benefit of all. Among other things, we will devote our collective resources more wisely to productive endeavors and spend less time and energy cleaning up after thoughtlessness and stupidity.

The central point is that we can not only learn but also learn how to learn. Those who comprehend this also recognize that it serves their best interests. It is optimal for them to do so. We can only hope that our efforts to promote understanding will eventually take hold and lead to a better world in the long run.

[Belinda]

Enlighten me.

I would be glad to.

Everything that takes place is, in fact, inevitable. Human actions are included in "everything" and are thus unavoidable. For example, our nervous system processes nerve signals before they manifest as muscle contractions or movements, all following the laws of physics. But the neural network is not merely a collection of neurons jumbled together arbitrarily. Evolution has optimized our genetic material to enable the owner to respond optimally to their environment. This is the essence of the phrase "survival of the fittest."

This is the reason we even have a brain. It performs the optimization; it solves the optimization problem, if you will, for us. And it is hardwired to do so. As a side note, I would like to mention that the "optimization problem" is always occupied with meeting unmet needs in the Maslow sense.

The great Stephen Hawking observed, "I have noticed that even people who claim everything is predetermined and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road." The experience of having parents and teachers who repeatedly drilled this into our heads eventually made sense to our young minds. The pieces fell into place. Since then, it has influenced our behavior whenever we need to cross the street. We even teach this to our children. It's unfortunate when a child doesn't grasp this rule to the point where they cannot cross the street without thinking about it.

Unfortunately, too many children and others have tragically died as a result of inadequate education in this area. No one can do something that doesn't occur to one. As adults, we need to make sure that these rules are drilled into the kids' heads so they can never forget them. Each time we fail to accomplish this, it breaks my heart. However, the fact that we are determined does not make us all mindless zombies. We can learn. And this learning is comprised of memories that reach back into our past, creating, if you will, a bridge that enables us to recognize patterns. We do not merely exist in the present but in the flow of time. Some of us have also discovered that placing a boulder in a stream will force the water to flow around it. Our experiences, which are physically embedded in our brains, can be used for our own benefit. Thus, the physical universe has given us a glimpse of the future, by extrapolating the past. Use it. This is the best way to meet your present and future needs. Let this knowledge sink in, internalize it, and live a better life.

We are not resigned to "wait and see what happens"; we can simulate potential outcomes in our minds before making the final, optimal decision. Mind you, this final decision is optimal not because our free will says it is but because our brain's logical inferences, entirely determined by synaptic connections, and despite having weaknesses and flaws, tell us that it is the best course of action. It is sad yet inevitable that some people never reach a level of understanding that would improve their lives. Yes, it is bound to happen, but it is still sad.

We are not destined to completely accept whatever occurs without intervening. We are a part of the physical universe. We can influence the outcome through our innate logical abilities, which are also entirely physical, just like every other physical entity that can affect us. The wisest among us learn how to take advantage of this incredible intelligence, which is physically embedded in the internal structure of our brains. As with the dead child in the street, those less fortunate will make mistakes and must deal with the consequences. The savvier individuals will recognize that the happiness of all is to the benefit of all. Among other things, we will devote our collective resources more wisely to productive endeavors and spend less time and energy cleaning up after thoughtlessness and stupidity.

The central point is that we can not only learn but also learn how to learn. Those who comprehend this also recognize that it serves their best interests. It is optimal for them to do so. We can only hope that our efforts to promote understanding will eventually take hold and lead to a better world in the long run.

Regarding children crossing the road, you say rightly "drilled". There is a place for training as separate from education. There is a place for intuition as separate from logical reflection.The wisdom is in knowing which is to be applied on which occasions. Clearly we are here primarily as philosophers albeit carrying our philosophising as lightly as may be.

As philosophers it's appropriate mostly to reflect not intuit. Appropriate to be educated rather than trained. What I am leading up to is the trained mind-brain is inauthentic if it's not also educated.
Educated or trained, authentic or inauthentic, does not matter at all when people are not making life changing decisions for selves or others. But when leaders of society are inauthentic we have trouble as they insist their unwitting stupidity, their lack of reflection, is what everybody else does.

[iambiguous]

Clearly, one would have hoped that at least some of you were intelligent enough to recognize when the parts fit together logically and make sense. Unfortunately, reality does not always conform to our desires. I have faith that subsequent generations will be less brainwashed and more intellectually honest than the current one.

Chagrined that all the rest of us don't "get it" as he does. We're all just dumber than he is.

On the other hand, when I suggest his own hardcore determinism includes everything but his own arguments, maybe I am missing a very important point about all this.

Enlighten me.

I would be glad to.

Everything that takes place is, in fact, inevitable. Human actions are included in "everything" and are thus unavoidable. For example, our nervous system processes nerve signals before they manifest as muscle contractions or movements, all following the laws of physics. But the neural network is not merely a collection of neurons jumbled together arbitrarily. Evolution has optimized our genetic material to enable the owner to respond optimally to their environment. This is the essence of the phrase "survival of the fittest."

Optimally? How is this different from wholly determined? As in...

You were never able to not post words here that you were never able to not type that you were never able to not think that I was never able to not read and never able to not react to other than as compelled to by a brain wholly in sync with the laws of matter.

This is the reason we even have a brain. It performs the optimization; it solves the optimization problem, if you will, for us. And it is hardwired to do so. As a side note, I would like to mention that the "optimization problem" is always occupied with meeting unmet needs in the Maslow sense.

Of course this raises questions that revolve around teleology. What or who brought into existence existence itself? What or who is "behind" the evolution of matter into "us"? What or who is finally able to explain this:

All of this going back to how the matter we call the human brain was "somehow" able to acquire autonomy when non-living matter "somehow" became living matter "somehow" became conscious matter "somehow" became self-conscious matter.

Does what we call the "human condition" have any ultimate meaning and purpose?

The great Stephen Hawking observed, "I have noticed that even people who claim everything is predetermined and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road." The experience of having parents and teachers who repeatedly drilled this into our heads eventually made sense to our young minds. The pieces fell into place. Since then, it has influenced our behavior whenever we need to cross the street. We even teach this to our children. It's unfortunate when a child doesn't grasp this rule to the point where they cannot cross the street without thinking about it.

Again, if we are all just nature's automatons -- "a machine that performs a function according to a predetermined set of coded instructions" -- how is Stephen Hawking, like all the rest of us, not just one more? We teach our children only what we were never able not to teach them. Children learn or do not learn their lessons only because they never had the actual option to do but one or the other.

You want to insist that the human brain is just more matter, but when it comes to your arguments here this matter is compelled to sound remarkably like the libertarians.

For example

Unfortunately, too many children and others have tragically died as a result of inadequate education in this area. No one can do something that doesn't occur to one. As adults, we need to make sure that these rules are drilled into the kids' heads so they can never forget them. Each time we fail to accomplish this, it breaks my heart. However, the fact that we are determined does not make us all mindless zombies. We can learn. And this learning is comprised of memories that reach back into our past, creating, if you will, a bridge that enables us to recognize patterns. We do not merely exist in the present but in the flow of time. Some of us have also discovered that placing a boulder in a stream will force the water to flow around it. Our experiences, which are physically embedded in our brains, can be used for our own benefit. Thus, the physical universe has given us a glimpse of the future, by extrapolating the past. Use it. This is the best way to meet your present and future needs. Let this knowledge sink in, internalize it, and live a better life.

Using words like "unfortunately" and "tragically" and "make sure" and "accomplish"...just like the free will folks will use them.

You post things like this...

We are not resigned to "wait and see what happens"; we can simulate potential outcomes in our minds before making the final, optimal decision. Mind you, this final decision is optimal not because our free will says it is but because our brain's logical inferences, entirely determined by synaptic connections, and despite having weaknesses and flaws, tell us that it is the best course of action. It is sad yet inevitable that some people never reach a level of understanding that would improve their lives. Yes, it is bound to happen, but it is still sad.

...as though there is not a brain scientist in the world who will not wholly concur with your conclusions.

Something is both sad and inevitable. It was compelled by the laws of matter to happen. And then the laws of matter compel you to feel sad. The only possible reality in the only possible world. But "sad" nontheless.

We are not destined to completely accept whatever occurs without intervening. We are a part of the physical universe. We can influence the outcome through our innate logical abilities, which are also entirely physical, just like every other physical entity that can affect us. The wisest among us learn how to take advantage of this incredible intelligence, which is physically embedded in the internal structure of our brains. As with the dead child in the street, those less fortunate will make mistakes and must deal with the consequences. The savvier individuals will recognize that the happiness of all is to the benefit of all. Among other things, we will devote our collective resources more wisely to productive endeavors and spend less time and energy cleaning up after thoughtlessness and stupidity.

And then of course this crucial distinction between "one of us", the smart ones [the Übermensch] who have figured it all out, and "one of them", the dumb ones [the Last Men] who have not.

The central point is that we can not only learn but also learn how to learn. Those who comprehend this also recognize that it serves their best interests. It is optimal for them to do so. We can only hope that our efforts to promote understanding will eventually take hold and lead to a better world in the long run.

The libertarian determinist in a nutshell.

[BigMike]

I would be glad to.

Everything that takes place is, in fact, inevitable. Human actions are included in "everything" and are thus unavoidable. For example, our nervous system processes nerve signals before they manifest as muscle contractions or movements, all following the laws of physics. But the neural network is not merely a collection of neurons jumbled together arbitrarily. Evolution has optimized our genetic material to enable the owner to respond optimally to their environment. This is the essence of the phrase "survival of the fittest."

Optimally? How is this different from wholly determined? As in...

You were never able to not post words here that you were never able to not type that you were never able to not think that I was never able to not read and never able to not react to other than as compelled to by a brain wholly in sync with the laws of matter.

The distinction between "optimally" and "wholly determined" is subtle, possibly too subtle for some. I had already stated that "Everything that takes place is, in fact, inevitable". But there is more to be said on the subject. By injecting the adverb "optimally" in the continuation of my response, I wanted to draw the reader's attention to the fact that, in addition to being inevitable, the response is also self-serving for genetic survival-of-the-fittest purposes. Natural selection is the determinate factor that drove our evolution to its current state and still does.

[BigMike]

This is the reason we even have a brain. It performs the optimization; it solves the optimization problem, if you will, for us. And it is hardwired to do so. As a side note, I would like to mention that the "optimization problem" is always occupied with meeting unmet needs in the Maslow sense.

Of course this raises questions that revolve around teleology.

No it doesn't. Only a confused mind could make that association. Only a mind in disarray would make that connection.

What or who brought into existence existence itself? What or who is "behind" the evolution of matter into "us"?

I just clarified this above, or rather, Charles Darwin answered this question.

What or who is finally able to explain this:

All of this going back to how the matter we call the human brain was "somehow" able to acquire autonomy when non-living matter "somehow" became living matter "somehow" became conscious matter "somehow" became self-conscious matter.

Does what we call the "human condition" have any ultimate meaning and purpose?

Of course not. Nature is indifferent, and there is no cosmic Father figure with a plan for everything. Let us abandon these infantile ideologies that we call religion. We have no other parents besides our biological parents. We are by ourselves. Let's grow up and forge our own paths through life. Yes, optimally and for our own benefit.

[Iwannaplato]

This is the reason we even have a brain. It performs the optimization; it solves the optimization problem, if you will, for us. And it is hardwired to do so. As a side note, I would like to mention that the "optimization problem" is always occupied with meeting unmet needs in the Maslow sense.

Of course this raises questions that revolve around teleology.

No it doesn't. Only a confused mind could make that association. Only a mind in disarray would make that connection.

Or a brain, or rather an organism, that notices implies teleology.

'This is the reason we have a brain.'
'And it is hardwired to do so.'

Perhaps not intended.