Christianity

[henry quirk]

My ignorance isn't sufficient reason to say that it doesn't or can't happen.

But apparently it's enough to declare alternate ideas as...

...not even worth disputing.

Which is more likely?

-Unconscious particles some how become conscious when arranged just right.

-Consciousness, or mind, is sumthin' other than the product of unconscious particles.

The first position, so far, is a dead end. We are no closer to understandin' consciousness as a product brain process today than we were 50 years ago.

The second position increasingly is supported by neuroscience. The work of Dr.s Wilder Penfield and John Eccles, to name two, doesn't prove mind and brain are two different things, but their work strongly suggests mind is not the product of brain process, that mind is sumthin' else.

I can, if you like, summarize their work and findings, or you can go to the sources...

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Frankly, in the absence of any plausible explanation of the mechanism or process that allows unconscious electrons, neutrons, and protons to form conscious structures or assemblies, I can't see how anyone can hold onto a promissory materialism.

[phyllo]

My ignorance isn't sufficient reason to say that it doesn't or can't happen.

But apparently it's enough to declare alternate ideas as...

...not even worth disputing.

Which is more likely?

-Unconscious particles some how become conscious when arranged just right.

-Consciousness, or mind, is sumthin' other than the product of unconscious particles.

The first position, so far, is a dead end. We are no closer to understandin' consciousness as a product brain process today than we were 50 years ago.

The second position increasingly is supported by neuroscience. The work of Dr.s Wilder Penfield and John Eccles, to name two, doesn't prove mind and brain are two different things, but their work strongly suggests mind is not the product of brain process, that mind is sumthin' else.

I can, if you like, summarize their work and findings, or you can go to the sources...


Frankly, in the absence of any plausible explanation of the mechanism or process that allows unconscious electrons, neutrons, and protons to form conscious structures or assemblies, I can't see how anyone can hold onto a promissory materialism.

Your entire argument is based on the Ignorance Fallacy.

It goes "I/we don't know how physical systems become conscious or have understanding or grasp meaning, therefore there must be a non-physical explanation. And there must be free-will."

[henry quirk]

And what is it called when someone holds onto a promissory materialism when there's no evidence it will, or can, deliver?

We regard promissory materialism as superstition without a rational foundation. The more we discover about the brain, the more clearly do we distinguish between the brain events and the mental phenomena, and the more wonderful do both the brain events and the mental phenomena become. Promissory materialism is simply a religious belief held by dogmatic materialists...who often confuse their religion with their science. -John Eccles & Daniel Robinson

[phyllo]

You don't actually have any evidence for your non-physical explanation.

[henry quirk]

You have two sources you can dig into if you're interested.

If you have any counterparts to suggest, sources that move materialism from promissory to deliverin', I'd be glad to dig into 'em.

[phyllo]

If you have some evidence for a non-physical explanation, then present it.

I'm not going to read every book and watch every YouTube video suggested to me on the internet.

[BigMike]

You don't actually have any evidence for your non-physical explanation.

I appreciate your patience based on what I've read, and I agree with all you say. They, your opponents, simply do not comprehend. Observing your incredible patience is almost amusing, yet I am immensely upset by those who deny that we inhabit a physical universe. It appears that they would rather (claim to) reside in a voodoo realm of spirits and ghosts.

[bahman]

If you have some evidence for a non-physical explanation, then present it.

I'm not going to read every book and watch every YouTube video suggested to me on the internet.

I have an argument for the existence of mind. You can find it here.

[BigMike]

If you have some evidence for a non-physical explanation, then present it.

I'm not going to read every book and watch every YouTube video suggested to me on the internet.

I have an argument for the existence of mind. You can find it here.

Perhaps you should begin by defining "mind" before attempting to "prove" its existence.

[phyllo]

"Brain" is one physical organ. "Mind" is an abstraction which combines brain function, memory, experience, hormones, etc to account for a person's behavior.

[bahman]

If you have some evidence for a non-physical explanation, then present it.

I'm not going to read every book and watch every YouTube video suggested to me on the internet.

I have an argument for the existence of mind. You can find it here.

Perhaps you should begin by defining "mind" before attempting to "prove" its existence.

Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience and cause qualia.

[bahman]

"Brain" is one physical organ. "Mind" is an abstraction which combines brain function, memory, experience, hormones, etc to account for a person's behavior.

That is the materialistic definition of mind.

[phyllo]

"Brain" is one physical organ. "Mind" is an abstraction which combines brain function, memory, experience, hormones, etc to account for a person's behavior.

That is the materialistic definition of mind.

You just defined it as "an irreducible substance".

Substance isn't material?

[Dontaskme]

"Brain" is one physical organ. "Mind" is an abstraction which combines brain function, memory, experience, hormones, etc to account for a person's behavior.

You are right.

A non-physical explanation cannot happen without a physical instrument to implicate it.

It's not like there is some kind of magic matter-less field of information floating around in the infinite vastness of empty space interacting with itself. Brains which are made of matter, really do matter when it comes to knowing information. Consciousness, aka knowing, is a by product of a brain braining and is very much a physical phenomena, the only knowing there is.

.

[BigMike]

"Brain" is one physical organ. "Mind" is an abstraction which combines brain function, memory, experience, hormones, etc to account for a person's behavior.

You are right.

A non-physical explanation cannot happen without a physical instrument to implicate it.

It's not like there is some kind of magic matter-less field of information floating around in the infinite vastness of empty space interacting with itself. Brains which are made of matter, really do matter when it comes to knowing information. Consciousness, aka knowing, is a by product of a brain braining and is very much a physical phenomena, the only knowing there is.

.

Correct!