IS and OUGHT

[attofishpi]

All I would add is that there is a certain cerebral weakness that compels the hard of thinking to insist their beliefs amount to knowledge.

..yet we still can't abandon our instinctive predisposition towards having religious beliefs. At least some of us don't seem to be able to abandon it, and this has manifested itself in the vast array of weird and wonderful beliefs we come across today.

Do you think as an individual abandoning a belief in a God is beneficial? If so, how?

[Harbal]

Do you think as an individual abandoning a belief in a God is beneficial? If so, how?

I suppose it depends on what the belief entails. I can imagine an individual's experience of life being enhanced by their belief in God. It probably wouldn't be beneficial for such a person to abandon his belief.

[attofishpi]

Do you think as an individual abandoning a belief in a God is beneficial? If so, how?

I suppose it depends on what the belief entails. I can imagine an individual's experience of life being enhanced by their belief in God. It probably wouldn't be beneficial for such a person to abandon his belief.

So if the belief is in Christianity, should that person abandon their belief?

[Harbal]

So if the belief is in Christianity, should that person abandon their belief?

Should they abandon the belief in order to achieve what?

[attofishpi]

So if the belief is in Christianity, should that person abandon their belief?

Should they abandon the belief in order to achieve what?

Well, that's your decision. You stated that it depends on what the belief entails, so I suggested Christianity. Is there a benefit for a Christian to abandon their belief in God?

[Belinda]

Proper Christians believe historical Jesus and the Biblical portrayal of Jesus Christ were the same person. I think many modern Christians think The Bible is a like a modern history book.

Is it true that everything about Jesus that is in the Bible was written long after his death?

So I've been told. Mark is the earliest Gospel at 40 years after his death.I am not sure but it's easy to look it up.

[Harbal]

Well, that's your decision. You stated that it depends on what the belief entails, so I suggested Christianity. Is there a benefit for a Christian to abandon their belief in God?

There are lots of different kinds of Christianity, that involve varying beliefs. And from who's point of view are we thinking of benefits?

If we were thinking of the average Church of England member, then I can't think of any benefits their change of heart would have for either themself or anyone else. If it were a right wing evangelical Christian, however, I do think there would be a benefit to society as a whole if they were to abandon their beliefs.

[attofishpi]

Well, that's your decision. You stated that it depends on what the belief entails, so I suggested Christianity. Is there a benefit for a Christian to abandon their belief in God?

There are lots of different kinds of Christianity, that involve varying beliefs. And from who's point of view are we thinking of benefits?

I remember as a child coming to the realisation there were these other 'versions' of God belief, and I asked a teacher what is a Christian. The answer was, if you believe in Christ, you are a Christian. Harbal, you just induced in me an EPIPHANY!! Right up to a minute ago, I still believed that to be the case, but there are stupid people in all facets of society and certainly, unless you live to the tenets of Christ's teachings I certainly would not consider ALL that merely believe in his existence as Christian!!

If we were thinking of the average Church of England member, then I can't think of any benefits their change of heart would have for either themself or anyone else. If it were a right wing evangelical Christian, however, I do think there would be a benefit to society as a whole if they were to abandon their beliefs.

Yep, bigoted fuckwits!!!

[Harbal]

So I've been told. Mark is the earliest Gospel at 40 years after his death.I am not sure but it's easy to look it up.

It just seems odd that the most significant human being to ever walk the earth only became significant in retrospect. On the other hand, dying young can be a great career move in becoming a legend.

[Harbal]

I remember as a child coming to the realisation there were these other 'versions' of God belief, and I asked a teacher what is a Christian. The answer was, if you believe in Christ, you are a Christian. Harbal, you just induced in me an EPIPHANY!! Right up to a minute ago, I still believed that to be the case, but there are stupid people in all facets of society and certainly, unless you live to the tenets of Christ's teachings I certainly would not consider ALL that merely believe in his existence as Christian!!

Well I used to think that Christianity was about how you behaved towards others, which is something I can respect and approve of. I have subsequently learnt that some Christians believe that belief itself is all that is essential to being a proper Christian. You can be a total bastard, but as long as you believe that Christ was the son of God, you'll be fine on judgement day. I find that kind of Christianity worthy of contempt.

[attofishpi]

I remember as a child coming to the realisation there were these other 'versions' of God belief, and I asked a teacher what is a Christian. The answer was, if you believe in Christ, you are a Christian. Harbal, you just induced in me an EPIPHANY!! Right up to a minute ago, I still believed that to be the case, but there are stupid people in all facets of society and certainly, unless you live to the tenets of Christ's teachings I certainly would not consider ALL that merely believe in his existence as Christian!!

Well I used to think that Christianity was about how you behaved towards others, which is something I can respect and approve of. I have subsequently learnt that some Christians believe that belief itself is all that is essential to being a proper Christian. You can be a total bastard, but as long as you believe that Christ was the son of God, you'll be fine on judgement day. I find that kind of Christianity worthy of contempt.

I agree. I am reminded of latino 'gang-bangers' going around killing others while wearing a gold crucifix around their neck like it actually gives them the right to murder, f'ing fools.

[Iwannaplato]

Well I used to think that Christianity was about how you behaved towards others, which is something I can respect and approve of. I have subsequently learnt that some Christians believe that belief itself is all that is essential to being a proper Christian.

I have been thinking about this issue, though from a slightly different angle. Because of this huge emphasis on belief in Christianity or modern Christianity, discussions of Christianity between believers and non-believers comes down to epistemology, often, especially in forums like this one. I think the is damaging, misleading and confusing for all parties. Religions have been generally seen about practices, participation and self-development. The latter occurs in Christianity, but it tends to be focused on behavior, following the moral rules of the religion, getting better at that.

The non-Abrahamic religions, I think, tend more to focus on practices. IOW a response to a skeptic could well be...try the practices and if you don't like what's happening inside you and in your experience, then drop it, it's not for you. I am not interested in debating my epistemological methods or the truth value of the beliefs of my religion. The proof is in the pudding. (though it is not proof, it's a decision is found in the pudding, or not) If you are not drawn to it, well, what is this conversation about anyway?

And beliefs, I think, are often really rather shallow, given the introspective abilities of many people. Their official position is belief, but what is going on in the complexity of their inner life. I am not sure they are interested. And I am not picking on Christians in this other point about belief. I think this is true in general.

You can have people who believe one should be kind and 'act kindly' but who are experienced as toxic, negative presences. Or people who claim not to be racist, but people of other races find them snippy and judgmental in ways they are not with people of their own race. The little lighthouse keeper in the frontal lobes may be quite confused about what the people in the village below actually believe.

[Age]

But why, if someone just touches "your toothpick" for example, then your views very quickly turn around completely and you now believe that you now 'have a right' or even 'ought to' take the life, liberty, and/or property, from the "other"? Is taking another's life 'just cause' for them just touching your toothpick? You have previously claimed that you have 'this right' to do so.

Citation, please.

I am not going to read this whole forum searching for the exact words you have used.

So instead, if you do not agree with what I have written above here, then explain what you have said in regards to what 'rights' you think or believe you do have, in regards to if someone just touches 'your toothpick'.

Would you say that you have the 'right', or even 'ought', to take the life, liberty, and/or property of another if they threaten to take your life, liberty, and/or property?

[Age]

As for Jesus Christ, He's the key issue. It's up to you to decide to hear Him or reject Him. But there are no middle positions on that. To reduce Him to a mere "historical" but otherwise unspecial character is rejection of who He really is.

I have heard it said that we can't be sure that he was even a historic figure.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... d-and-died

When will 'you', human beings, realize that 'evidence' is NOT 'proof'.

[Harbal]

When will 'you', human beings, realize that 'evidence' is NOT 'proof'.

When people need to believe something, they can even find proof in the complete absence of any evidence at all. The Church puts a much higher value on faith than on evidence. It makes a virtue out of necessity.