perhaps reality is?

[Age]

So, one strategy, though possibly also exasperating, is to respond primarily with short questions. Get justification, and then question the justification.

F F with F.

Age seems to think that, because we are here, we are duty bound not only to engage with him, but to do it on his terms. Well that is at least one thing he is irrefutibly wrong about.

Age ain't the only one. Alexis & Iambiguous are two who wanna call the shots too.

Absolutely NO one here has to engage with me AT ALL, and all I say is if one wants to make a claim here in this forum, then just expect to be questioned or challenged over that claim.

There are NOT 'my terms'. This is just what is naturally and essentially a part of what philosophizing IS.

[Age]

Age seems to think that, because we are here, we are duty bound not only to engage with him, but to do it on his terms. Well that is at least one thing he is irrefutibly wrong about.

And one could ask him to demonstrate the truth or that or prove it (since so many people here seem to expect proofs). And then when questions, instead of the proof come, ask more questions. Not saying it would work, but it might take less time.

Truth, and understanding, is gained and obtained through clarification and clarity.

The best and only true way of obtaining and gaining clarity and clarification is through Truly OPEN questioning, with a genuine CURIOSITY of wanting to LEARN MORE, from the "other's" perspective.

ALL people are absolutely FREE to express what they think or believe is true, but sometimes I ALREADY KNOW what is irrefutably True, and instead of 'debating' with the "others", I just challenge them, through questioning. After all I have NO need to prove what I ALREADY KNOW is True, true. I use questioning so as to ascertain if I have MISSED some 'thing', to GAIN a better understanding of HOW the "other" obtained at their views, and so as to learn how to better communicate what 'it' is that I want to express, eventually, and not necessarily in this forum.

Another way I look at this is there are a couple of posters who enter a thread and when engaged with somehow end up pulling one or more people off into a tangent, often rather personal. If you pull away, they declare victory, since, of course the only possible reason one ever disengages is because one is afraid or realizes one is beaten (they don't seem to question themselves about this ASSUMPTION). Had to capitalize that....

Here is ANOTHER example of just how one lets their ASSUMPTIONS take over their WHOLE view of things.

Oh, and by the way, there are a multitude of reasons WHY 'you', posters, here disengage and RUN AWAY.

Which, by the way, being so-called "beaten" has NEVER even been in my thinking EVER. This is because to me there is absolutely NOTHING to win NOR lose here, NOR am I even 'debating' ANY thing. So, this was just ANOTHER example of ANOTHER ASSUMPTION, which is absolutely and irrefutably False, Wrong, or Incorrect.

What is becoming more common, and being noticed now more frequently here, is how more and more of 'you', posters, here prefer to talk ABOUT 'me', instead of just engaging WITH 'me'.

What could be NOTICED is that I question and challenge those claims made about what is absolutely or irrefutably true, and I do not necessarily question and challenge those claims made about what could possibly or might be true.

This is WHY I continually suggest that if one wants to claim some 'thing' IS true, then make sure you have the ACTUAL PROOF to back up and support this claim FIRST, BEFORE you even make the claim public here, in this forum.

[Age]

Age ain't the only one. Alexis & Iambiguous are two who wanna call the shots too.

There are quite a few people here who take themselves far too seriously.

We KNOW you are just here for a joke. But this IS a 'philosophy forum', and if 'philosophical discussions' are NOT done in wanting to ARRIVE at the ACTUAL Truth of 'things', then what are they being done for?

See, the reason WHY 'you', human beings, have NOT YET ARRIVED at the ACTUAL Truth of 'things', for millennia now, is BECAUSE 'you' do NOT think, write, and speak in a complete and absolute Truthful WAY. Which is PERFECTLY NORMAL and FINE when NOT wanting to arrive at the actual and irrefutable Truth of 'things'. And, I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY that 'you', adult human beings, do take "yourselves" FAR TOO SERIOUSLY, and that it would be a much better world if you LOOKED AT and LAUGHED at your OWN selves, instead of AT "others". But, as it is said, there is a time and place for everything.

If one wants to use metaphors or analogy, or just wants to joke around and/or not say what they actually mean, then what the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth of 'things' ARE will REMAIN HIDDEN and COVERED.

UNCOVERING the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth of 'things' is, as I keep informing, a Truly VERY SIMPLE and EASY process. But one just needs to LEARN this process, and one part of this process is taking the procedure of Wanting to CHANGE so as to be ABLE TO SEE far more CLEARLY, SERIOUSLY.

If one does NOT Want to CHANGE for the better, then they can just joke around, and REMAIN the SAME. But do NOT expect to get a different result and actually arrive at thee Truth, when you are just doing the same thing over and over.

Oh, and by the way, I am the very LAST one who would say, 'Do not take Life too seriously'. To me, Life is best taken as FUN ALWAYS and LOOKED AT LAUGHINGLY. I just found ARRIVING at what thee ACTUAL Truth is FIRST, AND THEN PLAY and HAVE FUN AFTER, far more REWARDING and SATISFYING.

Again, it is OBVIOUS 'you' came here for A JOKE and for SOME FUN "harbal", and I have ALREADY acknowledged and thanked you for those one liners you used to provide, but let us not forget that this is a philosophy forum, and what 'philosophy' is about and for, and that there a countless number of other forums where just joking and having fun are warranted.

This, by the way, is to NEVER say that joking and having fun is NOT at all possible in 'philosophical discussions', just as long as they do NOT interfere at all with the goal of 'becoming wiser', which is done through learning and understanding what thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth of 'things' IS, EXACTLY.

[Age]

Yeah, I'm probably guilty of this too.

We all are. I mean, maybe there are some exceptions, but I would think everyone does it now and then. But there are certain posters who do it so much that the conversation becomes more or less exactly the same, regardless of the topic of the thread. I think on some level it's a one trick pony symptom. There is one message they want people to get and one emotion they want them to feel. The message might be: You're right, it all sucks, my hope and optimism or lack of depression was just held up by lies, now I am in the abyss with you. Hopelessness, depression, head down. Or it might be, you're right I shouldn't say anything, because anything I say has assumptions in it, including assumptions about other people. Guilt, shame, head down.

Anything short of that is going to trigger the exact same repetition from these peopley, on and on and on.

I, for one anyway, NEVER do NOR say absolutely ANY thing to MAKE you 'feel' any particular way.

Whatever you 'feel', at ANY particular moment, is SOLELY because of your OWN past experiences. And, by the way, absolutely EVERY 'feeling' you have is PERFECTLY NORMAL.

Also, and it will become much clearer that the 'main DIFFERENT message', within 'each DIFFERENT poster' here, which is 'trying to' be EXPRESSED and HEARD, when ALL combined TOGETHER, will form part of the GUT and TOE.

'you', posters, here do not yet realize, but it will because of 'you', and that deep internal message within, which is wanting to come out and be HEARD, when combined is HOW and WHY the way 'life' WAS, back when this was being written, CHANGES and BECOMES 'Reality' as It was MEANT TO BE and WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE (and) COME.

Through pre-'determined' factors, which have LAID and INSTILLED certain knowledge WITHIN 'you', and your 'free will' in order to be ABLE TO 'express' that knowledge, is what helped, significantly, in ALL human beings being ABLE TO CHANGE for the better, which in turn CREATES the 'Reality' that we ALL Truly WANTED and DESIRED for "ourselves".

[Age]

*biggy!

I take the fifth in regards to whom I may or may not have been analyzing. They may have been completely imagined characters.

This continual, on and on, and on, looking AT, 'analyzing' OF, "others" and wanting to judge, ridicule, or punish "them", and NOT looking AT "one's OWN self' and the Wrong that they do, was WHY human beings as a WHOLE took FAR TOO LONG to CHANGE, for the better.

But WHY this CHANGE took SO LONG to occur was TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE, and PERFECTLY REASONABLE, considering ALL of the factors that played a part here.

The reason WHY 'you', adult human beings, do NOT look AT "yourselves" and the Wrong that 'you' ALL do DO, is because you have LEARNED to judge, ridicule, and punish Wrong or bad behavior and OBVIOUSLY do NOT want that done to "yourselves" even when that is from 'you'.

See, judging, ridiculing, or punishing IS Wrong, and BAD, but 'you' have ALL grown up with these as being "normal" and "right" behavior, and have been so accustomed to it, that 'you' ACTUALLY BELIEVE that these are the "right" things to do in Life. As was PROVED irrefutably True by your OWN thoughts and thinking, back in the days when this was being written.

See, 'Reality' REALLY IS what is ACTUALLY POSSIBLE, and NOT what the current 'world', nor 'way of life' is, which one lives within, at ANY particular time or moment.

'Reality' is the one that EVERY one WANTS, and WANTS to live in, and which is ACTUALLY POSSIBLE and NOT necessarily the one that one is currently living in. Sure, what is happening around 'you' is REAL, and is REALLY HAPPENING, but just as SURELY what is happening around 'you', that is the war torn, polluted, stressful, greedy and selfish 'world', that 'you' are ALL living in, when this is being written, is REALLY HAPPENING but it is NOT 'Reality', as 'Reality' is YET-TO-COME, but is still in the process of BE-COMING, or COMING-TO-BE.

[Harbal]

So, one strategy, though possibly also exasperating, is to respond primarily with short questions. Get justification, and then question the justification.

F F with F.

Age seems to think that, because we are here, we are duty bound not only to engage with him, but to do it on his terms. Well that is at least one thing he is irrefutibly wrong about.

But I do NOT think this, at all.

So, your assumption here is wrong, again. Which means that your conclusion here is also wrong, as well.

Your assumption that my assumption is wrong is wrong, which means that your conclusion here is utterly wrong and false.

I have irrefutably proved it is wrong, and it makes no difference if you, adult whatever you are, say I haven't, because I have, so there.

[Age]

Age seems to think that, because we are here, we are duty bound not only to engage with him, but to do it on his terms. Well that is at least one thing he is irrefutibly wrong about.

But I do NOT think this, at all.

So, your assumption here is wrong, again. Which means that your conclusion here is also wrong, as well.

Your assumption that my assumption is wrong is wrong, which means that your conclusion here is utterly wrong and false.

But I did NOT assume ANY thing here. And, if you would like to contest this, and/or put this to the test, then please go on ahead.

See, I just went on the the ACTUAL words that you said and used here. So I did NOT assume ANY thing here.

Whereas you were assuming what I seemed to be thinking, and because I was NOT thinking 'that', what you assumed I was, AT ALL, this makes what you assumed, said, and claim here wrong and incorrect.

AND, because my conclusion was not based on any assumption but was in fact based on what you actually wrote down here, my conclusion was not and could not be wrong at all.

As can be clearly seen and proved true with our written words above here.

I have irrefutably proved it is wrong, and it makes no difference if you, adult whatever you are, say I haven't, because I have, so there.

LOL How exactly did you, let alone even could you, KNOW the thoughts within this head, if they have NOT been expressed here?

You are absolutely free to express your view in regards to what you ASSUME another one is thinking, but if the other has TOLD you that they were NOT thinking what you were just ASSUMING they were thinking, then how could you PROVE 'that', let alone PROVE 'that', IRREFUTABLY?

[Harbal]

But I did NOT assume ANY thing here. And, if you would like to contest this, and/or put this to the test, then please go on ahead.

See, I just went on the the ACTUAL words that you said and used here. So I did NOT assume ANY thing here.

Whereas you were assuming what I seemed to be thinking, and because I was NOT thinking 'that', what you assumed I was, AT ALL, this makes what you assumed, said, and claim here wrong and incorrect.

AND, because my conclusion was not based on any assumption but was in fact based on what you actually wrote down here, my conclusion was not and could not be wrong at all.

As can be clearly seen and proved true with our written words above here.

I have irrefutably proved it is wrong, and it makes no difference if you, adult whatever you are, say I haven't, because I have, so there.

LOL How exactly did you, let alone even could you, KNOW the thoughts within this head, if they have NOT been expressed here?

You are absolutely free to express your view in regards to what you ASSUME another one is thinking, but if the other has TOLD you that they were NOT thinking what you were just ASSUMING they were thinking, then how could you PROVE 'that', let alone PROVE 'that', IRREFUTABLY?

Okay, Age, I accept your apology, let's say no more about it.

[Age]

But I did NOT assume ANY thing here. And, if you would like to contest this, and/or put this to the test, then please go on ahead.

See, I just went on the the ACTUAL words that you said and used here. So I did NOT assume ANY thing here.

Whereas you were assuming what I seemed to be thinking, and because I was NOT thinking 'that', what you assumed I was, AT ALL, this makes what you assumed, said, and claim here wrong and incorrect.

AND, because my conclusion was not based on any assumption but was in fact based on what you actually wrote down here, my conclusion was not and could not be wrong at all.

As can be clearly seen and proved true with our written words above here.

I have irrefutably proved it is wrong, and it makes no difference if you, adult whatever you are, say I haven't, because I have, so there.

LOL How exactly did you, let alone even could you, KNOW the thoughts within this head, if they have NOT been expressed here?

You are absolutely free to express your view in regards to what you ASSUME another one is thinking, but if the other has TOLD you that they were NOT thinking what you were just ASSUMING they were thinking, then how could you PROVE 'that', let alone PROVE 'that', IRREFUTABLY?

Okay, Age, I accept your apology, let's say no more about it.

Okay, 'harbal", so you admit that the assumption you made was, obviously, wrong on retrospection, and if you do not want me to say no more about this, then that is perfectly fine with me.

[Harbal]

Okay, 'harbal", so you admit that the assumption you made was, obviously, wrong on retrospection, and if you do not want me to say no more about this, then that is perfectly fine with me.

No, I don't admit I made a wrong assumption, beacause I don't know what assumption you are referring to, and if I did make the assumption, I don't know that it was wrong.

I might have started this off by saying that we could not experience true reality, which is an opinion, not an assumption. What I should have actually said was, "it is my opinion that human beings cannot experience true reality".

Edit: Apparently, I said "We don't know what reality is", which isn't exactly the same as saying we can't experience reality.

[Age]

Okay, 'harbal", so you admit that the assumption you made was, obviously, wrong on retrospection, and if you do not want me to say no more about this, then that is perfectly fine with me.

No, I don't admit I made a wrong assumption, beacause I don't know what assumption you are referring to, and if I did make the assumption, I don't know that it was wrong.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. That is you do not even KNOW what assumption that you made, which I am referring to, although you said and claimed that 'it' was not wrong.

Now, if you ever want to KNOW what assumption you made, which is, obviously, wrong, then you can either;

Ask a question, for clarification. Or,

Just read back through our discussion here.

The assumption that you made, which is completely and utterly wrong, is here for all to see.

I might have started this off by saying that we could not experience true reality, which is an opinion, not an assumption. What I should have actually said was, "it is my opinion that human beings cannot experience true reality".

Although this has absolutely nothing at all to do with the wrong assumption that you made here, I will just add now that if one would have to have already known 'true reality' before they would be of the right opinion that human beings cannot experience 'true reality'. But this would then be obviously a self-contradiction anyway.

Edit: Apparently, I said "We don't know what reality is", which isn't exactly the same as saying we can't experience reality.

And here is the claim, which I have already shown is a self-contradictory claim.

See, to be able to KNOW that, "We do not know what reality is", one would have to first KNOW what is 'reality'.

[Harbal]

See, to be able to KNOW that, "We do not know what reality is", one would have to first KNOW what is 'reality'.

If you mean, to be able to know that we do not know what the true nature of reality is, we would first have to have an agreed upon definition of the term "reality", then I agree.