Gun Control

[commonsense]

Commonsense:

Here's a scenario.

You're a parent. Your child goes to public school somewhere. Say, eighth grade...say, a girl, the delight of your heart.

One day, the news reports that there's a gunman in your child's school. You know that she's in class, somewhere. She's locked down, and the gunman is strolling the school, unimpeded by the cops who are "waiting him out" or waiting for clearance to storm the building.

Her history teacher is a Leftist pacifist who would never carry a gun, for any reason. Her English teacher is volunteer security officer for the school, a registered, police-trained and practiced marksman, who packs a .357 magnum in his belt every day, just in case something happens.

In which classroom would you like your child to be: history class, or English class?

Your scenario is unrealistic and absurd.

Not a bit. It's not only realistic, but it's SO realistic that every school now has frequent "lockdown" drills and onging training in "shelter in place" to escape potential gunmen. It's now a regular part of every teacher's life, and all public school classrooms.

Where do you find teachers who want to be, or have time to be, security officers or hall monitors or cafeteria chaperones?

Everywhere. It's part of their daily duties, and has been for decades. They monitor halls, cafeterias and classrooms, dances, gymnasia, grounds, extra curricular places...and are 100% responsible for the security and well-being of the children put in their charge, at all times. Every teacher knows that. And if they fail in that duty, you can be sure there will be consequences: they know that, too.

The only difference between now and my scenario is whether or not, when it happens, there is any teacher in that school who has a gun. And there are teachers -- I know this beyond any possibility of doubt -- who would gladly carry a firearm to protect the children in their care. Some would rush to volunteer, given our present realities.

So let's not pretend this isn't exactly what's happening in our world right now. It is.

So what's your answer? Where do you want your daughter to be: in history class, or English class?

As I said, your scenario is unrealistic. I didn’t ask about teachers who have to be hall monitors, etc. I asked about teachers who want extracurricular duties.

My answer is that I want my great granddaughter to be in a school where every internal doorway is guarded by an armed and trained police officer.

[Immanuel Can]

Your scenario is unrealistic and absurd.

Not a bit. It's not only realistic, but it's SO realistic that every school now has frequent "lockdown" drills and onging training in "shelter in place" to escape potential gunmen. It's now a regular part of every teacher's life, and all public school classrooms.

Where do you find teachers who want to be, or have time to be, security officers or hall monitors or cafeteria chaperones?

Everywhere. It's part of their daily duties, and has been for decades. They monitor halls, cafeterias and classrooms, dances, gymnasia, grounds, extra curricular places...and are 100% responsible for the security and well-being of the children put in their charge, at all times. Every teacher knows that. And if they fail in that duty, you can be sure there will be consequences: they know that, too.

The only difference between now and my scenario is whether or not, when it happens, there is any teacher in that school who has a gun. And there are teachers -- I know this beyond any possibility of doubt -- who would gladly carry a firearm to protect the children in their care. Some would rush to volunteer, given our present realities.

So let's not pretend this isn't exactly what's happening in our world right now. It is.

So what's your answer? Where do you want your daughter to be: in history class, or English class?

As I said, your scenario is unrealistic.

Sorry, Commonsense: it's utterly realistic.

Every public school in the continental US knows it, and drills for it regularly, with their teachers and students hunkered down in silence, in a darkened room, against the walls and out of the sightlines from the door, hoping that this case is just another drill.

Ask them. Check your facts: everything I've told you is reality. Very grim reality.

In fact, the scenario I have posed is based on an actual conversation in which I was personally present. So there's no doubt left.

I didn’t ask about teachers who have to be hall monitors, etc. I asked about teachers who want extracurricular duties.

They all have them anyway: extra-curricular duty is required in the profession, for all teachers. It's not really even "extra". They now call it "co-curricular responsibilities." And it's of various kinds: coaching, monitoring, advising, preparing events, auditorium team, school drama duty, music and athletic events and trips...all of this in addition to the normal round of classes, marking, preparation and field trips. And there are teachers on staff who have volunteered for special competencies as well, like emergency response, medical intervention, workplace safety instruction, professional development activities...

Ask any teacher. They're way busier than you imagine, already.

So there's no difficulty in deciding, "Let's have one less staff sponsor for the "Green Team" or the "Gay-Straight Alliance" club, or one less badminton coach, so we can have at least one person who can stop a gunman." At the same time, I know for an ironclad certainty that some teachers are willing to step up, carry a gun, and defend their classes against this scenario.

My answer is that I want my great granddaughter to be in a school where every internal doorway is guarded by an armed and trained police officer.

Ah. The English classroom, then. I knew it.

You want your granddaughter in a room protected by a trained person with a handful of firearm -- not a room with a cringing Lefty with a handful of excuses.

I've got to say, that's the least surprising decision ever.

If you love your grandchild, you take every possible measure to protect her against harm, especially harm on this sort of scale. I agree. Trained officer, or trained teacher: it makes no difference if the training is in place.

I can see you get it.

[Walker]

The only difference between now and my scenario is whether or not, when it happens, there is any teacher in that school who has a gun. And there are teachers -- I know this beyond any possibility of doubt -- who would gladly carry a firearm to protect the children in their care. Some would rush to volunteer, given our present realities.

The would be more effective than a hallway in Texas packed with cops hiding around the corner.

[Immanuel Can]

The only difference between now and my scenario is whether or not, when it happens, there is any teacher in that school who has a gun. And there are teachers -- I know this beyond any possibility of doubt -- who would gladly carry a firearm to protect the children in their care. Some would rush to volunteer, given our present realities.

The would be more effective than a hallway in Texas packed with cops hiding around the corner.

Sad, isn't it? I know teachers who would literally put their bodies between any gunman and their classes. But they'd die instantly, and so would their students, when the did.

Empty handed, they'd lie on the floor in their own blood, listening the the cries and screams of other people's children dying.

If it were me, I'd empty a clip into any gunman that came through the door. If he didn't know the safe-word the school had chosen, so I knew he was a police officer or school official, and if he stepped into my room with a gun in his hands, I'd fill him with lead before I let him get at the kids. Period.

But not everybody would. That, we know. The closer one's relationship with one's class, the greater the chance the teacher in question would go to extremes to protect them -- instinctively, even. That's just human nature. The police don't know the children. They're just there to minimize the chance that anybody gets shot...and we see how that worked out for them.

Teachers have a closer relationship with the kids. But we owe such courageous teachers the means to make a meaningful defense of themselves and their kids.

[henry quirk]

Great idea!

Who can we arm and train?

Really?

Really. I guess I’m really asking about who can we afford to train and arm, and how we can pay their salaries. I suppose one way would be from taxes from gun sales.

Let me let you in on a little (open) secret.

My kid's high-school, like his middle school, and his elementary, have all that signage -- gun free zone -- like any other school. The difference is: in his elementary, middle, and high schools there are armed folks on campus. No body pays 'em to carry. They carry becuz they take defense of self and other seriously.

I'm thinkin' you won't have to train or pay folks to do what they're willin' to do anyway.

[henry quirk]

Do that and watch schools and malls and moviehouses fall right off the would-be shooter's list of favored targets.

Then they will move on to playgrounds, bowling alleys and Chinese restaurants.

They will still be gunning down someone.

I think it was Heinlein who said: an openly armed society is a polite society.

If anywhere, everywhere, a nutjob could go, he knew there was probably gonna be one or more carryin', carryin' with the intent to self-defend, he might think twice.

[commonsense]

Not a bit. It's not only realistic, but it's SO realistic that every school now has frequent "lockdown" drills and onging training in "shelter in place" to escape potential gunmen. It's now a regular part of every teacher's life, and all public school classrooms.


Everywhere. It's part of their daily duties, and has been for decades. They monitor halls, cafeterias and classrooms, dances, gymnasia, grounds, extra curricular places...and are 100% responsible for the security and well-being of the children put in their charge, at all times. Every teacher knows that. And if they fail in that duty, you can be sure there will be consequences: they know that, too.

The only difference between now and my scenario is whether or not, when it happens, there is any teacher in that school who has a gun. And there are teachers -- I know this beyond any possibility of doubt -- who would gladly carry a firearm to protect the children in their care. Some would rush to volunteer, given our present realities.

So let's not pretend this isn't exactly what's happening in our world right now. It is.

So what's your answer? Where do you want your daughter to be: in history class, or English class?

As I said, your scenario is unrealistic.

Sorry, Commonsense: it's utterly realistic.

Every public school in the continental US knows it, and drills for it regularly, with their teachers and students hunkered down in silence, in a darkened room, against the walls and out of the sightlines from the door, hoping that this case is just another drill.

Ask them. Check your facts: everything I've told you is reality. Very grim reality.

In fact, the scenario I have posed is based on an actual conversation in which I was personally present. So there's no doubt left.

I didn’t ask about teachers who have to be hall monitors, etc. I asked about teachers who want extracurricular duties.

They all have them anyway: extra-curricular duty is required in the profession, for all teachers. It's not really even "extra". They now call it "co-curricular responsibilities." And it's of various kinds: coaching, monitoring, advising, preparing events, auditorium team, school drama duty, music and athletic events and trips...all of this in addition to the normal round of classes, marking, preparation and field trips. And there are teachers on staff who have volunteered for special competencies as well, like emergency response, medical intervention, workplace safety instruction, professional development activities...

Ask any teacher. They're way busier than you imagine, already.

So there's no difficulty in deciding, "Let's have one less staff sponsor for the "Green Team" or the "Gay-Straight Alliance" club, or one less badminton coach, so we can have at least one person who can stop a gunman." At the same time, I know for an ironclad certainty that some teachers are willing to step up, carry a gun, and defend their classes against this scenario.

My answer is that I want my great granddaughter to be in a school where every internal doorway is guarded by an armed and trained police officer.

Ah. The English classroom, then. I knew it.

You want your granddaughter in a room protected by a trained person with a handful of firearm -- not a room with a cringing Lefty with a handful of excuses.

I've got to say, that's the least surprising decision ever.

If you love your grandchild, you take every possible measure to protect her against harm, especially harm on this sort of scale. I agree. Trained officer, or trained teacher: it makes no difference if the training is in place.

I can see you get it.

What makes your scenario unrealistic is the rarity of not fantasy of an English teacher who’s packing. The rest of your scenario I have no quarrel with.

I said great granddaughter.

[phyllo]

Do that and watch schools and malls and moviehouses fall right off the would-be shooter's list of favored targets.

Then they will move on to playgrounds, bowling alleys and Chinese restaurants.

They will still be gunning down someone.

I think it was Heinlein who said: an openly armed society is a polite society.

If anywhere, everywhere, a nutjob could go, he knew there was probably gonna be one or more carryin', carryin' with the intent to self-defend, he might think twice.

You guys have shootings all the time.

When are you going to realize that carryin' doesn't stop it?

[commonsense]

Manny,

Just to be sure I understand, would your willing English teacher have a concealed 357 or an open-carry holstered handgun? Or would the weapon be stored in a locked drawer with a trigger lock and the ammo stored separately?

[henry quirk]

Then they will move on to playgrounds, bowling alleys and Chinese restaurants.

They will still be gunning down someone.

I think it was Heinlein who said: an openly armed society is a polite society.

If anywhere, everywhere, a nutjob could go, he knew there was probably gonna be one or more carryin', carryin' with the intent to self-defend, he might think twice.

You guys have shootings all the time.

When are you going to realize that carryin' doesn't stop it?

We have shootings all the time precisely becuz we are not an openly armed society. We plaster gun-free everywhere and act surprised when nutjobs target such places. We punish folks who self-defend and give passes to those who offend and act surprised *so many are willin' to offend.

*and I'm not just talkin' about citizens here...too many law enforcers get away with -- literally -- murder...just read a piece about cops who shot a 25 year old 60 times (60 times) havin' bounties on their heads...I'm not sayin' them bounties are a good thing, but, damn straight, they're an understandable thing

[Immanuel Can]

What makes your scenario unrealistic is the rarity of not fantasy of an English teacher who’s packing.

In the conversation I was present at, it was the English teacher who was happily volunteering. It was a science teacher who was his interlocutor, and they were discussing the possible situation of the science teacher's daughter.

I told you; I know what I'm talking about.

And "great-granddaughter." Yes, yes...I'm sure all granddaughters are "great"...

[Immanuel Can]

Manny,

Just to be sure I understand, would your willing English teacher have a concealed 357 or an open-carry holstered handgun? Or would the weapon be stored in a locked drawer with a trigger lock and the ammo stored separately?

You mean like active-duty police officers routinely lock their guns in drawers with the ammo separate?

This is a self-defense situation, not a rat-plinking excursion to the local town dump.

Get serious.

[commonsense]

Manny,

Just to be sure I understand, would your willing English teacher have a concealed 357 or an open-carry holstered handgun? Or would the weapon be stored in a locked drawer with a trigger lock and the ammo stored separately?

You mean like active-duty police officers routinely lock their guns in drawers with the ammo separate?

This is a self-defense situation, not a rat-plinking excursion to the local town dump.

Get serious.

I understand then that, seriously, you would have the teachers holster their handguns in plain sight.

[Immanuel Can]

Manny,

Just to be sure I understand, would your willing English teacher have a concealed 357 or an open-carry holstered handgun? Or would the weapon be stored in a locked drawer with a trigger lock and the ammo stored separately?

You mean like active-duty police officers routinely lock their guns in drawers with the ammo separate?

This is a self-defense situation, not a rat-plinking excursion to the local town dump.

Get serious.

I understand then that, seriously, you would have the teachers holster their handguns in plain sight.

Where do the police keep their guns?

Answer: uniformed officers, in a special holster that grabs the gun if an assailant tries to pull it out.

Detectives, in a similar concealed holster inside their jackets.

I would argue that the latter option is better. Under a jacket and down at the side or back would be best. And not all teachers even need to carry. But in this situation, we're not dealing with quick draw, probably. So it would be enough if the teacher had a slim weapon concealed on his person somewhere under his clothes. If there were a lockdown, or an alarm, he'd have plenty of time to get it out if he needed to.

If a gunman knew that even one or two of the teachers in a school had the means to end his rampage summarily, do you think he wouldn't pause and rethink the logistics of his plan to off his classmates? Of course he would -- even if only for the fact that his plan could fail very quickly.

So there are ways of doing this well.

[commonsense]

You mean like active-duty police officers routinely lock their guns in drawers with the ammo separate?

This is a self-defense situation, not a rat-plinking excursion to the local town dump.

Get serious.

I understand then that, seriously, you would have the teachers holster their handguns in plain sight.

Where do the police keep their guns?

Answer: uniformed officers, in a special holster that grabs the gun if an assailant tries to pull it out.

Detectives, in a similar concealed holster inside their jackets.

I would argue that the latter option is better. Under a jacket and down at the side or back would be best. And not all teachers even need to carry. But in this situation, we're not dealing with quick draw, probably. So it would be enough if the teacher had a slim weapon concealed on his person somewhere under his clothes. If there were a lockdown, or an alarm, he'd have plenty of time to get it out if he needed to.

If a gunman knew that even one or two of the teachers in a school had the means to end his rampage summarily, do you think he wouldn't pause and rethink the logistics of his plan to off his classmates? Of course he would -- even if only for the fact that his plan could fail very quickly.

So there are ways of doing this well.

Makes sense.

But I don’t think that the lunatic shooter really takes much into consideration.