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Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:22 pm I am not sure who, if any here, are interested in 'the larger issues' and the 'larger conversation' which, as I see it, has a great deal to do with the Christian religion and identity that was once central to European identity, and the collapse of *belief in* Christianity in a wide range of senses: in metaphysics, and also as social policy, in self-definition with a nod to rising sentiments in pro of nationalism (which has many inflections).

What I wish to suggest to all who read here is that the entire, and far larger picture, needs to be viewed and taken into consideration. And by "larger situation" I mean the political and geo-political -- and ideological -- struggles that are manifesting right in front of us, day by day, with rising intensity.

To this end I will mention an article in the NYTs by Ezra Klein (though I can't imagine there are subscribers here) -- certainly a formidable exponent and apologist for American Liberalism -- which deals on a whole slew of unconventional, radical, and counter-propositional ideas that have, quite literally, exploded into the American scene as well as the European scene. These are ideas by so-called Radical Right thinkers and philosophers.

Here is a quote of one paragraph in the article. He references the recent book A World After Liberalism by Matthew Rose:
“A World After Liberalism” is a bracing place to begin this rediscovery, in part because so much of it takes place in liberalism’s era of ascendance, even as it came under violent threat. In the book, Rose profiles Oswald Spengler, Julius Evola, Francis Parker Yockey, Alain de Benoist and Samuel Francis, five thinkers of the 20th century far right who are experiencing a revival in today’s — increasingly near — right. Some of them reach into our world directly. To take one example, Evola, a not-quite-fascist Italian theorist, has been cited by Steve Bannon and was translated into Russian by Aleksandr Dugin, the philosopher and mystic now sometimes known as “Putin’s Rasputin.”

The argument of the anti-liberals goes something like this: Our truest identities are rooted in the land in which we’re born and the kin among whom we’re raised. Our lives are given order and meaning because they are embedded in the larger structure and struggle of our people. Liberalism and, to some degree, Christianity have poisoned our cultural soil, setting us adrift in a world that prizes pleasure and derides tradition. Multiculturalism, in this telling, becomes a conservative ideal: We should celebrate the strength in cultural difference, reject the hollow universalist pieties of liberals and insist on the preservation of what sets people apart.
Here he quotes Rose himself:
In theory, liberalism protects individuals from unjust authority, allowing them to pursue fulfilling lives apart from government coercion. In reality, it severs deep bonds of belonging, leaving isolated individuals exposed to, and dependent on, the power of the state. In theory, liberalism proposes a neutral vision of human nature, cleansed of historical residues and free of ideological distortions. In reality, it promotes a bourgeois view of life, placing a higher value on acquisition than virtue. In theory, liberalism makes politics more peaceful by focusing on the mundane rather than the metaphysical. In reality, it makes political life chaotic by splintering communities into rival factions and parties.
So while we are, here, discussing the merit or non-merit of Christianity, around us, in fact, we are in the midst of tremendous upheavals in ideation about what Christianity means and indeed what purpose religion, and certainly the metaphysical idealism, has for all of us. In this reading then the collapse of Christian certainties, let's say, has opened our worlds (inside and outside) to mounting chaos and confusion. And struggle -- social conflict and even war -- looms as a prospect.

The reason this all interests me definitely ties-in to the Larger Conversation here.

So it seems to me relevant and necessary to keep in mind that just as all *spiritual* ideas and religious ideas (and religious praxis) are undergoing on-going changes, these are mirrored in events circling around us.

Perhaps this is spinning out too far from the topic (?)
"even if we can't prevent the forces of tyranny from prevailing, we can at least "understand the force by which we are crushed." Simone Weil

Humanity is being crushed and regardless of all these expert opinions, nothing gives the impression that the crushing can be avoided. Yet some are aware of the larger human problem and give indication for what the individual can do to serve the need to awaken to the human condition.

Jacob Needleman in the preface to lost Christianity describes the human situation

https://tiferetjournal.com/lost-christianity/
.............But in fact, no such assumption of moral authority by secular humanism, has
taken hold or now seems in any way likely or justified. The modern era, the era of science, while witnessing the phenomenal acceleration of scientific discovery and its applications in technological innovation, has brought the
world the inconceivable slaughter and chaos of modern war along with
the despair of ethical dilemmas arising from new technologies that all
at once project humanity’s essence-immorality onto the
entire planet: global injustice, global heartlessness and the global
disintegration of the normal patterns of life
that have guided mankind for millenia. Neither the secular philosophies
of our epoch nor its theories of human nature—pragmatism, positivism,
Marxism, liberalism, humanism, behaviorism, biological determinism,
psychoanalysis–nor the traditional doctrines of the religions, in the way we have understood them, seem able to confront or explain the crimes of humanity in our era, nor offer wise and compassionate guidance through the labyrinth of paralyzingly new ethical problems.

What is needed is a either a new understanding of God or a new understanding
of Man: an understanding of God that does not insult the scientific
mind, while offering bread, not a stone, to the deepest hunger of the
heart; or an understanding of Man that squarely faces the criminal
weakness of our moral will while holding out to us the knowledge of how we can strive within ourselves to become the fully human being we are meant to be– both for ourselves and as instruments of a higher purpose.

But, this is not an either/or. The premise –or, rather, the proposal—of this
book is that at the heart of the Christian religion there exists and
has always existed just such a vision of both God and Man. I call it
“lost Christianity” not because it is a matter of doctrines and concepts
that may have been lost or forgotten; nor even a matter of methods of
spiritual practice that may need to be recovered from ancient sources.
It is all that, to be sure, but what is lost in the whole of our modern
life, including our understanding of religion, is something even more fundamental, without
which religious ideas and practices lose their meaning and all too
easily become the instruments of ignorance, fear and hatred. What
is lost is the experience of oneself, just oneself—myself, the personal
being who is here, now, living, breathing, yearning for meaning, for
goodness; just this person here, now, squarely confronting one’s own
existential weaknesses and pretensions while yet aware, however
tentatively, of a higher current of life and identity calling to us from
within ourselves. This presence to oneself is the missing element in
the whole of the life of Man, the intermediate state of consciousness
between what we are meant to be and what we actually are.
It is, perhaps, the one bridge that can lead us from our inhuman past
toward the human future..............
Collective society or what Plato called the Beast has a life cycle and will be crushed. But can
the essence of Christianity and the few who understand it, serve to lessen the catastrophes to come? We can only hope so.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:19 am Absurdity has an index of its own. It can be what it is to a greater or lesser degree. Qualifiers denote magnitude. But why be so petty?
The answer is: I think you were being unfair. Let us try to re-situate the conversation and the topic of this thread. If I were to be deliberately reductive I would describe your position as 'vehement opposition to the belief in leprechauns'. But if I did that I would be stating what your position is quite unfairly. I would be rewriting your position into a position that I could then 'rail against'. Your position cannot be that simplistic. There is far more, there must be, in what your ideas ramify.

When entire areas of involvement (for example those who use entheogens and who believe and state that they get something out of the use) are dismissed as 'absurd in the extreme' and 'not worth talking about', this sort of dismissive declaration (though I do not say you are unjust in having whatever idea you have) is in my view simply too broad.

Everything going on around us, and if you accept as you seem to that nihilism is upon us all (I'd like to know more of what you think on this topic), is worth examination and shouldn't we give some respect to the ideas and perspectives of other people?

I asked RC to explain on what basis he believes (and has determined) that a psychedelic is a 'mind-poison'. It is a very decent question. Did he use these drugs and determine on his own that they are 'poisonous'? That would be admissible. Did he read something where it was declared that they are mind-poisons? Why no answer? If you think it through it is there -- not answering, not being concerned enough to give an answer, and believing that no answer is needed -- is where the absurdity is.

But what I my larger point? Simple. So much gets dismissed when people opt to act out of closed-mindedness. And when people get hardened in these positions it leads to situations where all communication is made impossible. Should not communication be open and fluid?
My sense of certainty comes from deleting - based on what I measure as real or bogus - a plethora of dumb abstractions having no reference to reality. What's left after that, I'm no-longer so sure of. The only thing I do know for certain is that the 1st half is easy.
You could simply have said 'abstractions'. By adding 'dumb' you seem to wish to provoke a fight with those who see and describe things differently than you. Do you really and truly think that all people, throughout our long (in this case Occidental) history who engaged with what I call metaphysics and metaphysical thought were all 'dumb'? That is, ass-brained idiots? Could you really and honestly make such an assertion and stand behind it?

I think you would render your entire argument absurd if you did that.

Having no reference to reality is a loaded, indeed and ideological statement! The sorts of 'abstractions' that those you seem to oppose have held to have been abstractions that have hugely moulded our societies indeed our civilization.

How could you possible, with justification, speak so reductively? I simply cannot believe that this is 'the real you'. So if you admire, as you say you do, the novel Steppenwolf, would you not also admire the man who wrote it? And if that is so would you not also consider that he 'worked with' all that you seem to deride as 'abstractions' and, in fact, had a deep respect for Medieval culture?

Is your purpose just to reduce everything to intensely over-simplified statements? What possibe good or usefulness can come from such an attitude? (if you agree with my characterization of it).
In spite of your riffing there is not the least probability that whatever I say would have any power or effect on others. Having no knowledge of such preempts any concern I could possibly have.
Now this is totally false! There is a certain 'chiming together' among those who hold to your general ideas. I will refrain from characterizing what your precise position is but I gather some part of it from what you write. You write, you have effect, period.

The object here can be not so much convincing any other person but in getting the actual depth and full range of the problem out in the open so it can be seen.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:13 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:09 pm Do you really know what Christian rebirth is?
Yes. John 1:12-13 is one key.

Do you? :shock:
Matthew 11:11
Well, sort of, tangentially; but it says nothing about how it comes about, or how it works.

I suggest that that would be the wrong verse to pull. It hasn't got enough information about the concept in it to form a clear conception. But there are whole passages that would be better. 1 Peter 1:3-9, for example.
What does the highest born of woman and the lowest in the kingdom mean to you? Is there a transition point? I believe it is the change of mind called metanoia and happens as Plato described when the soul inwardly turns towards the inner light. It is a conscious experience.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:20 pm What does the highest born of woman and the lowest in the kingdom mean to you?
"Mean to me?" :lol:

No, the question is rather, "What does Jesus Christ mean by it?" Who cares what you or I makes up, right? We're not so great.

There is no specific theology developed from that particular statement. We know very, very little about John, and nothing at all about how he rates in the Kingdom. We are not told; and if we needed to be, don't you think we would have been?

One thing for sure: Jesus was not Plato, nor was He influenced by Plato in any way. So to make some Platonic analogy would require some really odd logic.
promethean75
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Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

"Jesus was not Plato, nor was He influenced by Plato in any way. So to make some Platonic analogy would require some really odd logic"

Since Jesus was not 'the son of god' or 'divine' and did not possess any mutant powers (he wasn't an X-Man), any 'philosophical' ideas he'da had, had'ta come from whatever ideas were popular and being passed around between cults. Pythagorean mysticism was a big hit back then, and chances are J got a lot of his stuff from it's influence through the Essenes.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:28 pm Since Jesus was not 'the son of god' or 'divine'...
You can tell Him that when you see Him.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:28 pm "Jesus was not Plato, nor was He influenced by Plato in any way. So to make some Platonic analogy would require some really odd logic"

Since Jesus was not 'the son of god' or 'divine' and did not possess any mutant powers (he wasn't an X-Man), any 'philosophical' ideas he'da had, had'ta come from whatever ideas were popular and being passed around between cults. Pythagorean mysticism was a big hit back then, and chances are J got a lot of his stuff from it's influence through the Essenes.
IC doesn't get it. Why attack what you don't understand? Look how many over time who have been influenced by Platonic Christianity. You are right and they are all wrong. That is the modern elitist way but is it the sensible way?

http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/cp.htm
promethean75
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Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

As an aside. So if man is the primary interest, the primary project of 'god', you might say - and if you create men you gotta put em somewhere... so you need to make at least one decently sized planet orbiting some energy source (sun) to put em on - then why would 'god' make anything more than what was necessary to create that?

To call the universe an epic overkill would be an understatement.

Our options.

A) 'god' couldn't have done it any other way, and the whole universe was needed to produce man. (Incidentally this makes 'god' subject to natural law, so he'd neither be the creator of the 'rules' nor able to act freely from them)

B) 'god' could have done it some other way, and for unknown reasons, 'chose' this way. But because this is so excessive for 'god's' purposes, a whole frickin universe doesn't make sense.

C) galaxies with solar systems are teeming with life everywhere and man is not the primary interest.

Discuss.
promethean75
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Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

"You can tell Him that when you see Him."

Bro. All the guy would do is forgive me and then ax me to walk a while with him.
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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:13 pm As an aside. So if man is the primary interest, the primary project of 'god', you might say - and if you create men you gotta put em somewhere... so you need to make at least one decently sized planet orbiting some energy source (sun) to put em on - then why would 'god' make anything more than what was necessary to create that?
If persons are the primary interest: a universe, wherein personhood can flourish and take many forms, might just be what the Deity, er, doctor ordered.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:54 pm IC doesn't get it.
Dont' kid yourself. I "get" what there is to "get" out of what you say.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:33 pm "You can tell Him that when you see Him."
Bro. All the guy would do is forgive me and then ax me to walk a while with him.
I guess you could wait and see that, too.

I wouldn't.
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iambiguous
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Re: Christianity

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:22 pm
promethean75 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:13 pm As an aside. So if man is the primary interest, the primary project of 'god', you might say - and if you create men you gotta put em somewhere... so you need to make at least one decently sized planet orbiting some energy source (sun) to put em on - then why would 'god' make anything more than what was necessary to create that?
If persons are the primary interest: a universe, wherein personhood can flourish and take many forms, might just be what the Deity, er, doctor ordered.
Come on, Henry, admit it: the only way a person could flourish on a planet where you resided is if he or she thinks exactly like you do. You strike me as basically no different from the hardcore Christians here. You just prefer a different "transcending" font: your very own ideological brand of Libertarianism.

Though, just out of curiosity, what do you see as your posthumous fate? Can you take your "owned" ideology with you to "the other side"?

Or is the brute facticity of oblivion?
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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

Bubba, you're a pip.

Me: I'm a deist. An afterlife -- Valhalla-like, with drinkin' and wenchin' -- would be nice, but I've no reason to believe that kinda afterlife, or any other, exists.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:02 pmWhen entire areas of involvement (for example those who use entheogens and who believe and state that they get something out of the use) are dismissed as 'absurd in the extreme' and 'not worth talking about', this sort of dismissive declaration (though I do not say you are unjust in having whatever idea you have) is in my view simply too broad.
You're right! It would be too broad. It may have seemed that way but it wasn't my intent to denote all use of entheogens in that manner. But the way it's used and described by its so-called evangelists...tantamount to discovering a more extensive reality, I would characterize exactly in that way. Do you really think screwing with one's neural system is going to discover new truths?
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:02 pmEverything going on around us, and if you accept as you seem to that nihilism is upon us all (I'd like to know more of what you think on this topic), is worth examination and shouldn't we give some respect to the ideas and perspectives of other people?
Absolutely! But that depends on what those perspectives are and how they derive. Also, the degree to which one is willing to retreat from personal opinion and accept what seems more credible...which is almost impossible for most people to do.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:02 pmI asked RC to explain on what basis he believes (and has determined) that a psychedelic is a 'mind-poison'. It is a very decent question. Did he use these drugs and determine on his own that they are 'poisonous'? That would be admissible. Did he read something where it was declared that they are mind-poisons? Why no answer? If you think it through it is there -- not answering, not being concerned enough to give an answer, and believing that no answer is needed -- is where the absurdity is.
It's historical, ritualistic and religious use to intensify and engage one's psyche to another level of experience I would not allege as mind poison. Its use is quite common in that respect throughout history, from the Amazon to the Vatican. It's always been part of culture, which doesn't imply everyone has tried it. It's only a poison when it deforms one's sense of reality in the waking state. Can't speak for RC, but I think that's what he meant.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:02 pmSo much gets dismissed when people opt to act out of closed-mindedness. And when people get hardened in these positions it leads to situations where all communication is made impossible. Should not communication be open and fluid?
That's an idealism most haven't mastered since we became sapien; especially now with all the media, propaganda and hype. For most countering an opinion is like making war on a person's mind. It gets defended by whatever method...even the most absurd.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:02 pmYou could simply have said 'abstractions'. By adding 'dumb' you seem to wish to provoke a fight with those who see and describe things differently than you. Do you really and truly think that all people, throughout our long (in this case Occidental) history who engaged with what I call metaphysics and metaphysical thought were all 'dumb'? That is, ass-brained idiots? Could you really and honestly make such an assertion and stand behind it?
I think you're really stretching it to make a point. It's true that metaphysics NOW has very little to do with physics or the structures it appertains to. However, there are clearly brilliant metaphysical systems created in the Occidental world. That in itself would have required a strict discipline to think both succinctly and abstractly, which is de rigueur for all the sciences that followed, including biology. There's a world of difference in metaphysics being subservient to all what is subsumed under dialectic and the hair-brained abstractions emanating from minds inspired by hallucinogens like those of Terrence McKenna who even laughed at some of his own!
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:02 pmHaving no reference to reality is a loaded, indeed and ideological statement! The sorts of 'abstractions' that those you seem to oppose have held to have been abstractions that have hugely moulded our societies indeed our civilization.
From the way you express yourself, methinks you protest too much! Everything created by man is an abstraction signifying all what ceases to be inherent in nature. All the rules, religions, art, laws, the methodologies of science, etc., can be considered abstractions or creations of a conscious mind having achieved a kind of escape velocity from that which nature itself has created...meaning us in the raw. It is we who have determined the existence, value and function of it all.

So, to be clear, I'm not referring to these essential creative kinds of abstraction but the kind you find having merit that because a mind can think or rinse out some deformed visions or illusions which seem otherworldly it must possess some simulacrum of truth or one not available to normal consciousness. Those are the ones I call dumb abstractions, published for and consumed by idiots who believe that pounding one's brain with pharmaceuticals will reveal truths not normally realizable. It reminds me of those who supposedly experienced an NDE and immediately feel compelled to write a book about it!
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:02 pmSo if you admire, as you say you do, the novel Steppenwolf, would you not also admire the man who wrote it?
It may seem strange to you, but it's not necessary to admire any man because of his accomplishments, that being a separate story. There are many exceptionals and geniuses who are very hard to admire except for their creations. I'm neutral on Hesse; character-wise, there is not anything particularly negative that can be said about him. Tolstoy was definitely a genius who turned into a religious idiot. There are many examples where it becomes misleading to conflate character with genius. I don't admire Beethoven, for example, but I have a holy respect for his music.
Dubious wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:19 amIn spite of your riffing there is not the least probability that whatever I say would have any power or effect on others. Having no knowledge of such preempts any concern I could possibly have.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:02 pmNow this is totally false! There is a certain 'chiming together' among those who hold to your general ideas. I will refrain from characterizing what your precise position is but I gather some part of it from what you write. You write, you have effect, period.

The object here can be not so much convincing any other person but in getting the actual depth and full range of the problem out in the open so it can be seen.
You may see it that way or prefer to see it as such, but I don't. What is noticeable is that everyone is out to defend his own fort against an invasion of foreign influence. Whatever effect I may or may not have is thoroughly unknown to me and therefore of no consequence.

You should know by now that my intensely over-simplified statements are due to a lack of sophistication, being somewhat earth-bound in my views. I'm basically a bread & butter, oatmeal kind of guy who only takes a shower when knowing thyself becomes too uncomfortable.
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