Christianity

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Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:44 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:25 am Like what?
The idea behind *word* and Logos as the beginning of things likely artecedes the Hebrew notion of it.

The notion of a divinity that brings the manifest world into existence with word or utterance is greatly expanded in Vedic metaphysics. The idea behind 'recitation of the name of God' as a means to link one with God, as well as the notion that what one says has power in this our world, is the idea behind mantra. The idea that the words (promises, commitments) of a man of his word depends on his general truthfulness is an ethical idea that operates very strongly for all of us -- still.

Thus again the idea that 'all speech is sermonic', that all speech either links with truthful things or falls away from truth, is one important idea that Richard Weaver worked with. The interesting way to validate this is to consider all the uses of the word -- of speech, of rhetoric -- as means of deception and trickery. For example in advertising and, certainly today, in propaganda and political speech. It is more fair to say that we are immersed in lies & deceptions than that we live in clarifying truths.

Just now we are being subject to extraordinary political lying and deception surrounding Ukraine to the degree that it is nearly impossible, if it is not impossible, to actually know the truth of the matter. [I mention Ukraine because this event is now a linchpin around which manipulation and deception of extraordinary breadth will be carried out over the next year.]

On what does all this depend? In essence the manipulation of thew word, of speech, of the organization if ideas. Thus words can be used to control and ensnare people. A science of lying.

But if that is true then the opposite is posited: words and notions and concepts can, and should free up. Who speaks the truth? How can the truth be stated? It is interesting to consider this idea of truth when confronting a given person whose life has gone off the rails. When a person gets so involved in mistruths that he (or she) does not even understand what he has done to himself or what has been done to him. All processes of personal rectification always have to do with stating what really is in the clearest terms. So inevitably one must return to truth-telling.

It seems to me that this is one of the most salient features of the time we are in: no matter what topic there is a miasma of differing opinions and assertions about what is true.

Clear idea, ideas based in sound logic and in sound premises (and based on sound first principles), thoughts and ideas that do not entangle a person but free and empower a person, not to mention the idea behind affirmative, potent prayer that has the power to empower the individual and move the world, it is in this arena that confusion reigns. What is true? What is real? What is valuable?

All of these things depend on logos, obviously, in the sense of *careful truthful definition* and *guiding idea*. And it seems that this is exactly the area where the individual is attacked. Thoughts turn mushy. Emotions run in to those domains of logos that should be free of them and then things get terribly muddled.

The idea, therefore, of God's utterances and certainly the idea that the whole Universe is pervaded with logic (idea that manifests all that we see, know and are) is certainly an archaic idea more proper to scholasticism. That is to say the old way of visualizing life and reality. Yet though the scholastics got so much wrong it seems to me that the basic idea is sound.
Why not just call words the most malleable instrument humans invented conforming to whatever world view he endorses capable of expressing the most egregious lies and hypocrisy as self-justification as well as what he fundamentally and truthfully believes without preconditions of it actually being truth.

Words do not require a separate philosophy; they themselves become a philosophy in being able to express all thoughts. Mantras too are merely a way to discipline one's mind into a single channel where sound becomes the carrier wave modulated by meaning, i.e., what the sound itself signifies.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:29 pm Why not just call words the most malleable instrument humans invented conforming to whatever world view he endorses capable of expressing the most egregious lies and hypocrisy as self-justification as well as what he fundamentally and truthfully believes in without preconditions of it actually being truth.
But it should be logical to assert that *word* refers to something that must be universal. I do mean that other intelligent creatures must use word-vibration (transmittable concept-packets? 😂) as we do. So I am not sure if it is correct to say that we *invented* words. In this sense, I suppose, I accept some of the more far-flung ideas often found in Vedic thought.

Am I to take it that you do not believe in 'absolute truth'? (I do not necessarily believe in specific truths but it does seem to me that an absolute truth is a logical necessity.)

It should be obvious from what I wrote that I hold -- at least ideally -- to an idealistic notion. So the area that concerns me is not that of when lies and hypocrisy are present and dominate, but the other side of the spectrum.

So it is clear that my idealism prompts me to declare and affirm that word (verbum, speech, utterance) should have a high function given its power. It should be clear that I believe it possible to 'sharpen understanding' and to 'clarify idea' and also that there is a higher domain of knowing. So the act of speech, if that is not the word itself, should be seen as having a sacred function. (However it is possible that you and others can make no sense of what 'sacred' means).
Words do not require a separate philosophy; they themselves become a philosophy in being able to express all thoughts. Mantras too are merely a way to discipline one's mind into a single channel where sound becomes the carrier wave modulated by meaning, i.e., what the sound itself signifies.
That sounds about right.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:34 pmBut it should be logical to assert that *word* refers to something that must be universal. I do mean that other intelligent creatures must use word-vibration (transmittable concept-packets? 😂) as we do. So I am not sure if it is correct to say that we *invented* words. In this sense, I suppose, I accept some of the more far-flung ideas often found in Vedic thought.
Humans had to invent words to distinguish between a vast range of concepts, from the concrete to the abstract. Human consciousness made that into an imperative. The transmittable concept-packets of other intelligent creatures, though impressive, are nowhere near that range while communicating very well within the range they have being all that nature requires for any particular species.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:34 pmAm I to take it that you do not believe in 'absolute truth'? (I do not necessarily believe in specific truths but it does seem to me that an absolute truth is a logical necessity.)
If there is an absolute truth it's one ruled by probability which denies any absolute truth; it doesn't equate with logical necessity. It remains an empty variable without ever having been assigned a value denoted as absolute. Not least, an assumed absolute truth is one which grants itself complete authority, and that never worked out well. There is too much human subterfuge in determining Absolutes. One must always ask, whose purpose does it serve?
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:34 pmIt should be obvious from what I wrote that I hold -- at least ideally -- to an idealistic notion. So the area that concerns me is not that of when lies and hypocrisy are present and dominate, but the other side of the spectrum.
I prefer to consider the whole of it or as much as can be understood. To the senses, a spectrum has edges.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:34 pmSo it is clear that my idealism prompts me to declare and affirm that word (verbum, speech, utterance) should have a high function given its power. It should be clear that I believe it possible to 'sharpen understanding' and to 'clarify idea' and also that there is a higher domain of knowing.
No argument. Literature, philosophy and science, et al., unequivocally affirm that. But I wouldn't qualify that specialized function in itself as idealism but certainly lead to idealism...or its negation.

Language transforms itself into a philosophy by its expressions, how it expresses and defines...or defined by its own terms. Each languge, in that sense, hosts its own philosophy.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:34 pm So the act of speech, if that is not the word itself, should be seen as having a sacred function.
It's a function, a very advanced function but why should it be sacred?
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:34 pm (However it is possible that you and others can make no sense of what 'sacred' means).
If life isn't sacred - being only our testimony that it is - why should anything in life be considered so? There are degrees of value and perhaps the highest can be considered sacred but that too depends on time and place. The word sacred denotes an absolute of some kind remaining changeless through the ages instead of getting reinterpreted as time goes on. We're always on the hunt for a new Sacred!
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:31 am
attofishpi wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:32 am Why did God use words, indeed language that man communicates with to create Earth and suns?
We don't know what language God spoke at Creation. Some might guess it was Hebrew; but that would be a guess, and not one based on any evidence. But "word" is a very complex concept in Scripture, and one loaded with meaning, and one often mentioned, so there's a lot we do know about that.
Ok. So God speaking the planet Earth the Sun and other stars into existence using some form of language is rational to you?
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Re: Christianity

Post by Ansiktsburk »

Why did he say anything? Noone was listening.
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Ansiktsburk wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:04 am Why did he say anything? Noone was listening.
He said the Word because any uncaused cause, such as is God, is not a cause at all unless it expresses itself.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:06 amHumans had to invent words to distinguish between a vast range of concepts, from the concrete to the abstract. Human consciousness made that into an imperative. The transmittable concept-packets of other intelligent creatures, though impressive, are nowhere near that range while communicating very well within the range they have being all that nature requires for any particular species.
It is true that words are invented. What I doubt is that language -- some sort of background to the communication of which words are one expression and a central one -- is invented. But this means, ultimately, that I do not think that the Universe, whatever it is, why-ever it is, invents itself as it goes along. So it is a 'necessity' that what occurs, what forms (and concept and language and communication is one of those things) had, in some sense, a prior existence. We must assume (at least I think so) an infinite number of prior creations and not just the relatively blink-of-the-eye manifestation of our universe and our *world*. It already happened -- I mean language and being and the need to communicate already happened infinite times. So in this sense 'language' is part-and-parcel of the manifestation.

The notion of *Word* and utterance and of consciousness vibrating everything into manifestation is, naturally, a freaky idea. It is also an archaic concept and is born of a certain primitiveness of conception. But what does it really mean? I would suppose it does not refer to a mouth uttering a Word, that would be childish and that would be a 'picture' which is a metaphor for something beyond the picture, right? It refers to constructive consciousness, ur-intelligence, a priori intelligence, manifesting the Kosmos. This is what I have always supposed 'logos' to refer to. Something within the Universe, the Kosmos and the manifestation organizes itself. It is hard to escape this idea. But then I have wondered if instead of all creation being pushed toward manifestation -- the idea of 'bang' and 'explosion' implies this -- I have wondered if it is not being pulled along. Not impelled or propelled but drawn. It is another way of seeing the same thing.

I also realize that *humans have consciousness* and what it is, and why it is, no one seems to know or be able to say definitively. But it seems to me that it is not a specific creature-consciousness that we must examine but Consciousness itself which is, by the fact that it exists in us and we know this is so, something latent and also necessary in the creation itself. And again if this is so, and it is manifest, it did not invent itself as it went along.

Obviously, and if one wanted to get mystical about it, people have been speculating about what consciousness really is for a long while. My reference point is often Vedic thinking because, right or wrong, accurate or inaccurate, close to the truth or a wild approximation and lyrically romantic, it seems that these Vedic seers got to the heart of the matter.

So again 'word' and the power to utter, to manifest, and for all things to take shape and 'come into being' -- even of course the 'world' (loka लोक) in which we are given this opportunity to be aware, to perceive where we are and what we are a part of, are perceptions and notions that are all tied together.
If there is an absolute truth it's one ruled by probability which denies any absolute truth; it doesn't equate with logical necessity. It remains an empty variable without ever having been assigned a value denoted as absolute. Not least, an assumed absolute truth is one which grants itself complete authority, and that never worked out well. There is too much human subterfuge in determining Absolutes. One must always ask, whose purpose does it serve?
The way you are looking at it, I gather, is political ultimately. The noton of an absolute truth held and meted-out by a dominating clique for its own purposes and benefit.

While I agree that those who are within the manifestation, within mutability and ensconced in it (here Dasein and the ideal of 'worlding' and being subjected to that worlding must enter in to our concept), must recognize that they cannot within their condition define some *absolute truth*, the notion of it is inherent and necessary. Perhaps I have negated by putting it this way that some terrestrial, defined 'truth' is possible. Yet to posit the opposite -- that everything is in flux and undecided and constantly mutating and in this sense ultimately unstable, even unknowable -- is as much of a mistake in the political-idea-social realm as its opposite.
It's a function, a very advanced function but why should it be sacred?
Well, the notion of the sacred, when examined, becomes pretty complex. If you ask me to provide an answer I can only speak from experience. And in that experience, or vision if you wish, the sacredness of all things was clearly revealed. It is intuitive, subjective and personal. And, having let's say received that understanding, the choice became whether to accept it and choose to integrate the understanding, or to forget that it happened and, as the Platonists and also the Vedics might say, become immersed in mutable reality, become *lost* in mutable reality, or as the Vaishnavas say to 'forget' and lose oneself in 'the material entanglement'. Within that system of seeing, and believing and being, to become lost in this sense is a tragedy and has infinite layers of consequence. And if what is proposed here is true, and I suggest that it is pretty obvious that it is true, then let us define what is 'sacred' as that idea, that concept, that awareness, that brings about or augments the understanding I just outlined.

So 'awareness' and 'awaking' and 'purification' and honing and sharpening of the same is, let us say, something 'sacred'. Why then is what is sacred always surrounded by mystery? Why is the 'sacred ground' sacred? What is the demarkation-point that separates the profane man from the man who, in one degree or other, realizes awareness? Or carries it through let's say to some elevated point?

Well your guess is as good as mine but it always seems to be so. No matter what traditon one examines, be it Buddhist, Vedic, Taoist, Christian and even Islamic. And then there are the more *primitive* examples. For example the 'sacred awareness' cultivated by shamans of the South American jungles. A similar paradigm exists. Take the story revealed in The Wizard of the Upper Amazon. They use a bizarre jungle drug and in their vision they encounter the Anaconda Spirit. And that spirit rules the domain in which they exist -- their *world*. It reveals itself and it brings knowledge and understanding.

One has to examine this paradigmatically, no? We are all, in one way or another, ultimately concerned for the same thing. We become *viewing lenses* that attempt to focus in on what is real, on what is true.

Though it is pretty obvious that the System that we now live in has separated itself from even the belief and understanding that such awareness as I reference is worth anything at all. We live in a system which begins to look more like a machine than a culture. Can the Machine lead people to awareness, freedom, knowledge and understanding? It does not appear so. The Machine in this sense functions when it incorporates a being into itself and, in this sense dulls awareness. Or do you see it differently?

Thus: the notion of what is Sacred must be given emphasis. If it has been forgotten it must be rediscovered. It may be a polluted pool and many see organized religion in this way (and perhaps religion generally) but I for one think there is much much more there.

In Vedic thought as well as in Hebrew thought it is the language itself, the word, the revelation, the meaning, but the Word itself that reveals this, and that is sacred. The vocalization of the scriptural word that is given 'sacred' emphasis. This sense comes through it seems to me. It cannot be denied. But it is an allusion to higher, even transcendent truths. The story is not the truth, the enactment isn't either.
If life isn't sacred -- being only our testimony that it is - why should anything in life be considered so? There are degrees of value and perhaps the highest can be considered sacred but that too depends on time and place. The word sacred denotes an absolute of some kind remaining changeless through the ages instead of getting reinterpreted as time goes on. We're always on the hunt for a new Sacred!
I have made an effort to present my view of the matter. I would answer again but I'd repeat myself!

New Sacred you say? It might go round in circles but I am uncertain if a genuine new sacred is a viable idea. But obvioulsy I tend toward a form of traditionalism (having read a good amount of René Guénon and others like him). It is, I guess, the way I am wired (to put it in mechanical-electical terms). 😁
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:48 am Ok. So God speaking the planet Earth the Sun and other stars into existence using some form of language is rational to you?
Well, you have to define what you are understanding when you say that God is "speaking," using 'language" and what makes it "rational."

There is no reason to think that every analogy we draw from human experience is applicable to God...what it means for me to "speak" and for Him to "speak" can be on quite a different level.

Likewise "language." I speak English. And nothing happens when I do. Does the same apply to God? Why would we think so?

So what do you mean by "rational," then? Do you mean "reasonable to think a Supreme Being can do"? Then, sure. Or do you mean, "Something atto and IC comprehensively understand?" Then, I think the answer will turn out to be a lot less certain.

What I do feel quite certain about is that what happens when God "speaks" and what happens when we do are on whole different levels. My speech is not creatorial and does not have ultimate authority to constitute being. But the Torah, right from Genesis, holds that God is the "I AM," the very grounds of existence itself.
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Re: Christianity

Post by seeds »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:44 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:25 am Like what?
The idea behind *word* and Logos as the beginning of things likely artecedes the Hebrew notion of it....
The use of the word "WORD" in the Bible was just a rhetorical device used by ancient humans...

(with all humans, mind you, being the metaphorical equivalent of "amoebas" compared to the Being they are attempting to visualize)

...to convey their primitive interpretation of the means by which the creative source of the universe brought the world into existence.

Everyone needs to stop nit-picking over the trivial details of what is nothing more than a fanciful "STORY" (albeit with vaguely imparted nuggets of truth here and there).
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

I submit here anti-Smashing Pumpkins 🤡
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

AJ: The idea behind *word* and Logos as the beginning of things likely artecedes the Hebrew notion of it....
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:30 pmThe use of the word "WORD" in the Bible was just a rhetorical device used by ancient humans...
A quote from this site:
Thus the Word is closely associated with creative activity. In Isaiah 55:11 the 'word' goes out of God's mouth, just as His breath/Spirit does. In fact both the word for Spirit (Strong's #7307) and the word for mouth (Strong's #6310) derive from verbs meaning to blow, puff or exhale (Strong's #6284, #7306). Both Spirit and Word are associated with creation in Genesis 1:2-3 ("The Spirit of God was brooding . . ."; "And God said, let there be . . . "). The significance of Isaiah 55:11 is that the 'word' never returns void ('empty', a different word but one with similar meaning to 'void' in Genesis 1:2), it always accomplishes (Hebrew: השא ‘âsâh 'to make or create' (Strong's #6213), used in Genesis 1) its purpose. Now these are key meanings of the actual Hebrew word for 'word', but here described in several sentences.
So I guess you are saying that the reference to *word* is the rhetorical device used but that something else is referred to as the active, motivating agent.

Still, in Jewish thought the word itself, and the letters, have something like divinity in them
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
DPMartin
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Re: Christianity

Post by DPMartin »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:48 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:31 am
attofishpi wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:32 am Why did God use words, indeed language that man communicates with to create Earth and suns?
We don't know what language God spoke at Creation. Some might guess it was Hebrew; but that would be a guess, and not one based on any evidence. But "word" is a very complex concept in Scripture, and one loaded with meaning, and one often mentioned, so there's a lot we do know about that.
Ok. So God speaking the planet Earth the Sun and other stars into existence using some form of language is rational to you?
That which is expressed by that which is alive doesn’t have to be a vibration in the air.

The notion that communication is only organized speech may be incorrect seeing any living thing can chose what is desired and express that desire in many ways. Animals express desire to one another and don’t use words as men do. Plants express the desire for the attention of a honeybee to get a fulfillment.

That which responds accordingly to that which is spoken by a power to keep, is chosen, kept, retained by that which expressed itself in the presence of that which responded. Even the plant keeps and retains and uses that which the honeybee brought to it.

In the case of the Lord God of Israel, God brought time energy space and matter into existence and then becoming present in His creation He expressed His desire and chose that which responded accordingly. In the context of scripture creation is made for the accommodation of the presence of Life.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:31 am We don't know what language God spoke at Creation.
Of course we do. We even know what the word was: "abracadabra!," and the name of the language is Gibberish. It's the language of theology and most philosophy.

The first recorded creator god was Aten around 1330 BCE in Egypt, so probably spoke some Egyptian language.

The next recorded creator god was Elohim or Yahweh around 700 BCE in Mesopotamia, so probably spoke some Mesopotamian or Hebrew precursor language.

The creator god the Christian religion is Yahweh repackaged as a tripartite monstrosity, more a committee than a being, called God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. They probably spoke Koine Greek which most of the New Testament is written in.

The next well-known creator god was Allah, who did not show up until around 600 CE in Arabia, so probably spoke Arabic.

We must not leave out the creator god of the Sikhs, ik onkar, who was recognized around 1400 CE. Since the Sikh scriptures are written in Sant Bhāṣā, a language related to both Punjabi and Hindi, ik onkare probably spoke one of those languages.

There are so many different creator gods, all with different cultural backgrounds, which language was used to poof the universe into existence will probably never be settled. There are all these creator gods: Hayyi Rabbi of gnostic Mandaeism, Mbombo of Central African mythology, Nanabozho (Great Rabbit) of the Ojibwe tradition, Coatlicue of the Aztecs, Viracocha of the Incas, Atum, Ptah, and Neith of the Egyptians, El in Canaanite religion, the Babylonian Marduk creator god.

There are Atingkok Maru Sidaba in Manipuri (Bangladesh) mythology, Esege Malan in Mongolian mythology, Kamuy in Ainu mythology, Izanagi and Izanami-no-Mikoto in Japanese mythology, and, of course, Lord Brahma, aka Purusha or Devi, the Hindu creator God, if it is not Vishnu, Shiva, or Parvati, which the Vedas to not make clear.

We must not leave out Plato's Demiurge, the creator god of Neoplatonism and Gnosticism or Pangu, of Chinese cosmology, though he required the aid of the Turtle, the Qilin, the Phoenix, and the Dragon, and certainly not the Kazak Jasagnan, the creator of the world.

It is very difficult to believe that any rational adult actually considers the question of what language some God used to magically cause the universe to pop into existence could possibly have meaning. So long as that kind of superstitious nonsense dominates the minds of human beings, there is not much hope for the success of humanity.
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Ansiktsburk wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:04 am Why did he say anything? Noone was listening.
Not a criticism. There is no such word as, noone. It is always two words, "no one," in correct English. It's a common mistake, but looks silly. Don't worry about it, just thought you'd like to know.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:20 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:31 am We don't know what language God spoke at Creation.
Of course we do.
You might have spared yourself all the effort.

No, we don't. Your assumption is based on the idea that whatever language it was must be a human language. However, no human language has creatorial force. So no, we have no idea. All is speculation.
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