Dasein/dasein

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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:52 amNow, what I would note is that in No God world there does not appear to be a "philosophically correct" answer to her question "is abortion moral or immoral?"
When you say a No God world I assume that you mean the world of a specifically-defined God -- i.e. the god of Judaism and Christianity.

I say this because it seems to me that nearly everyone on this forum writing on the topic of God as a possibility, and there are not many, do not define a Christian God. Myself, I am not sure if the notion of the Christian God is accurate enough. In any case all definitions are changing and shifting.
Instead, I would suggest that whatever decision she comes to will be embodied by and large in an existential leap faith to a particular subjective rationalization based on a set of moral prejudices that she has come to accept given all the variables in her life that makes one behavior more likely than another.
Curious problem really. On one hand she surely wanted to avoid an immediate problem and when she put everything onto the table for examination it became possible to make the choice she did because it *served her purposes the most* -- at least in that moment.

But the interesting thing is to consider that, in the long run, she may herself have come to see her decision as mis-guided. That is, she did not have enough information, or the right information, in her possession at that moment.

The Christian implication is of moral consequence -- a price to be paid for eliminating a life.
Now, what would IC tell her, that everything she needs to know about abortion she'll find in his Bible?
The Christian argument is that to abort is a special form of murder. I say *special* for obvious reasons. It is associated with premeditated murder and yet the 'victim' is not ever seen nor it suffering felt (except in the photographs that are presented to show people what it *really* is).
Just out of curiosity, if someone were to ask Heidegger to connect the dots between Dasein in Being and Time and the Nazis setting into motion the Holocaust, what do you suppose he might say?
How many takers do you think you will get for that question?
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by attofishpi »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:53 pm When you say a No God world I assume that you mean the world of a specifically-defined God -- i.e. the god of Judaism and Christianity.

I say this because it seems to me that nearly everyone on this forum writing on the topic of God as a possibility, and there are not many, do not define a Christian God. Myself, I am not sure if the notion of the Christian God is accurate enough. In any case all definitions are changing and shifting.
Just out of interest, how would you define the God of Judaism and the God of Christianity? How would the definition differ I wonder?
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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Just out of curiosity, if someone were to ask Heidegger to connect the dots between Dasein in Being and Time and the Nazis setting into motion the Holocaust, what do you suppose he might say?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:52 amYou don't accept Heidegger's "dasein." You make your own up.
No, I'm curious as to how Heidegger might have reacted to my own understanding of dasein given the manner in which he would connect the dots between Dasein as encompassed in Being and Time and the Nazis setting into motion the Holocaust.

Dasein in German means "to be there". Heidegger merely gave us his own spin on that...the "existential" spin.

Same as I do. To be born there instead of here. To be born now instead of before. How do the specific circumstances you find yourself in when "thrown" adventitiously into a particular world at a particular time impact on your moral and political value judgments.

Bringing "Being" down out of the intellectual clouds and introducing it to becoming. As in becoming this instead of that because of all the variables in your life that you do not either fully understand or control.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:49 pm
Just out of curiosity, if someone were to ask Heidegger to connect the dots between Dasein in Being and Time and the Nazis setting into motion the Holocaust, what do you suppose he might say?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:52 amYou don't accept Heidegger's "dasein." You make your own up.
No, I'm curious as to how Heidegger might have reacted to my own understanding of dasein
Nobody knows what "[your] own understanding of dasein" is. You won't tell us.
Dasein in German means "to be there".
Everybody knows that, I think. I certainly did. But I don't know what you mean when you use the word.
Same as I do.
Wait: you said your own "dasein" ISN"T Heidegger's. :shock:

Well, is it, or isn't it?

P.S. -- As to how Heidegger would have reacted, who can say? But he probably would not react at all, if your "dasein" were the same as his.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:08 am What part of, "we need to focus in on a particular set of circumstances to explore this existentially" didn't you understand?
Atla wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:22 amThe "this" part. We don't know what the hell you even mean by dasein, and you refuse to narrow it down using a third-person analysis either, you don't reply to any inquiry. The few things you did say were rather vague and contradictory.

I'm quite capable of switching to first-person existential talk AFTER I know what we are even talking about. :) To me philosophy is about being adept at both. Dishonesty and ivory tower my ass. So now I have this little suspicion that dasein is whatever you want it to be, from your unchecked first-person pov.

(Being an Eastern nondualist and having gone through their deconstruction/realization process, I have a deeper first-person understanding of the "I" than Heideggerian phenomenology does, by the way.)
Here we are 3 pages into the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein. I have in fact noted in some detain what it means to me out in the world of human interactions in the is/ought world of conflicting moral and political value judgments.

In my view, for someone to then insist they "don't even know what I mean by dasein", it speaks more about them than about me.

Though again here...

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529

...my effort either at least begins to sink in or it doesn't.

If not I'd recommend that you move on to others. No sense in us wasting each other's time.
Atla wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:22 amI'm quite capable of switching to first-person existential talk AFTER I know what we are even talking about. :) To me philosophy is about being adept at both. Dishonesty and ivory tower my ass. So now I have this little suspicion that dasein is whatever you want it to be, from your unchecked first-person pov.
Perhaps, but what you don't seem capable of [to me] is in focusing in on a particular set of circumstances in which value judgments come into conflict and exploring this given the manner in which we both construe the existential parameters of human identity.
Atla wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:22 am(Being an Eastern nondualist and having gone through their deconstruction/realization process, I have a deeper first-person understanding of the "I" than Heideggerian phenomenology does, by the way.)
Whatever that means. But again, given a specific context we are all likely to be familiar with, why don't you connect the dots between this "world of words" and that.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by iambiguous »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:43 am Just out of curiosity, if someone were to ask Heidegger to connect theNo, I'm curious as to how Heidegger might have reacted to my own understanding of dasein
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:02 pm Nobody knows what "[your] own understanding of dasein" is. You won't tell us.
As I noted to Atla above:
Here we are 3 pages into the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein. I have in fact noted in some detail what it means to me out in the world of human interactions in the is/ought world of conflicting moral and political value judgments.

In my view, for someone to then insist they "don't even know what I mean by dasein", it speaks more about them than about me.

Though again here...

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529

...my effort either at least begins to sink in or it doesn't.

If not I'd recommend that you move on to others. No sense in us wasting each other's time.
Dasein in German means "to be there".
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:02 pm Everybody knows that, I think. I certainly did. But I don't know what you mean when you use the word.
Hell, in my view, you don't even make the attempt to respond substantively anymore. Instead, it's all basically just about me. I may as well be back at ILP.
Same as I do.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:02 pm Wait: you said your own "dasein" ISN"T Heidegger's. :shock:

Well, is it, or isn't it?
Again:
I'm curious as to how Heidegger might have reacted to my own understanding of dasein given the manner in which he would connect the dots between Dasein as encompassed in Being and Time and the Nazis setting into motion the Holocaust.
Care to go there yourself?

Instead, you wiggle out of it...
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:02 pm P.S. -- As to how Heidegger would have reacted, who can say? But he probably would not react at all, if your "dasein" were the same as his.
Heidegger, Nazis, the Holocaust and Dasein.

Is there anyone here willing to take a crack at it?

As for my own understanding of dasein, I would speculate that given the life that Heidegger lived, i.e. the accumulation of personal experiences, personal relationship and access to particular information and knowledge and ideas, it all predisposed him subjectively to acquire the political prejudices that he did. And that had his life been very different [for any number of reasons] he might have come to just the opposite frame of mind about the issues that sustained the 2nd World War.

Now, how is that related to his conclusions about Dasein in Being and Time?
Last edited by iambiguous on Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Atla »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:43 am
iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:08 am What part of, "we need to focus in on a particular set of circumstances to explore this existentially" didn't you understand?
Atla wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:22 amThe "this" part. We don't know what the hell you even mean by dasein, and you refuse to narrow it down using a third-person analysis either, you don't reply to any inquiry. The few things you did say were rather vague and contradictory.

I'm quite capable of switching to first-person existential talk AFTER I know what we are even talking about. :) To me philosophy is about being adept at both. Dishonesty and ivory tower my ass. So now I have this little suspicion that dasein is whatever you want it to be, from your unchecked first-person pov.

(Being an Eastern nondualist and having gone through their deconstruction/realization process, I have a deeper first-person understanding of the "I" than Heideggerian phenomenology does, by the way.)
Here we are 3 pages into the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein. I have in fact noted in some detain what it means to me out in the world of human interactions in the is/ought world of conflicting moral and political value judgments.

In my view, for someone to then insist they "don't even know what I mean by dasein", it speaks more about them than about me.

Though again here...

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529

...my effort either at least begins to sink in or it doesn't.

If not I'd recommend that you move on to others. No sense in us wasting each other's time.
Atla wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:22 amI'm quite capable of switching to first-person existential talk AFTER I know what we are even talking about. :) To me philosophy is about being adept at both. Dishonesty and ivory tower my ass. So now I have this little suspicion that dasein is whatever you want it to be, from your unchecked first-person pov.
Perhaps, but what you don't seem capable of [to me] is in focusing in on a particular set of circumstances in which value judgments come into conflict and exploring this given the manner in which we both construe the existential parameters of human identity.
Atla wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:22 am(Being an Eastern nondualist and having gone through their deconstruction/realization process, I have a deeper first-person understanding of the "I" than Heideggerian phenomenology does, by the way.)
Whatever that means. But again, given a specific context we are all likely to be familiar with, why don't you connect the dots between this "world of words" and that.
So you just want to talk about how human values and identity are influenced by the time and place people are born into, without looking into the nature of human identity itself?
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:31 am No sense in us wasting each other's time.
Well, that's for sure. If you have no definition of "dasein," I guess we're done on that.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:31 am Heidegger, Nazis, the Holocaust and Dasein.

Is there anyone here willing to take a crack at it?
::: timorously raises hand :::

"Me, Sir, I'll take a crack at it. But it will have to be done in parts, Sir, because it is really a difficult topic.
As for my own understanding of dasein, I would speculate that given the life that Heidegger lived, i.e. the accumulation of personal experiences, personal relationship and access to particular information and knowledge and ideas, it all predisposed him subjectively to acquire the political prejudices that he did. And that had his life been very different [for any number of reasons] he might have come to just the opposite frame of mind about the issues that sustained the 2nd World War.

Now, how is that related to his conclusions about Dasein in Being and Time?
First, let us contextualize the conversations that go on here, on this forum, in which we are engaged. Let's define what is *really* being talked about on these threads where religion, Christianity, 'belief', metaphysics, and the power-struggles that are in evidence here go on.

My understanding is that we are all involved, like it or not, in dasein-related conflicts. In one way or another an entire realm of contrary ideas -- apperceptions -- about the world (ie reality and being in this reality) have entered very strongly into the modern-day conversation and we must recognize -- here, among us, in what we discuss -- that there is a will to overturn previous overlording ideas. Call it morality, call it 'rules', call it theological impositions, call it metaphysical assertions that are used to herd, dominate and control people in ways that, some, do not like or appreciate. The nature and scope of this battle is completely evident in the scope of the conversations that go on here. There are, therefore, opposed wills that, Titan-like, battle other wills for dominance.

Where did Dasein come from and who came up with it and why? I think it is wise to consider *it* an activist's idea. Whatever *it* is, whatever we refer to, and whatever *it* is that propels us all (I suggest we are all in the midst of *it* and cannot be otherwise) must be seen, made conscious, so that it can directly and fairly be talked about. Whatever Dasein is (this is my sense) it is not Heidegger's idea so much as it is the manifestation of a directed, concrete, human striving. So in order to understand what it is and why and how it manifest, some back-tracking must be undertaken.

Whatever *Heidegger* is, and I obviously separate his person from his manifestation in Germanic culture, he represents something phenomenologically expressible and to some degree non-personal. What is that? My answer is 'the manifestation of a will to throw off a constraining will understood to be incommensurate with Germanic or Nordic, or *Aryan*, or simply Northern-European being). This of course has manifestations that go back rather obviously to Luther. What is connoted of course is a very large 'refusal' to remain subject. My sense is that we will only find an answer to what Heidegger's Dasein means when we examine the Christian context. The simplest way I have been able to express this refusal and resistance is to understand Germanic Christianity as a sort of rebellion against Mediterranean Christianity. As I have indicated in other posts I accept the theory that the Germanic world, the Germanic person, and Germanic *being* to introduce the Heideggarian notion, transformed the Christianity received by the northern peoples. In brief what this meant is 'bending' and modifying an other-worldly religious modality to one that supported 'being in the world' and being in the world in time. This shift is not a small thing by any means.

And again I refer to the necessary backdrop to what I here suggest as the obvious backdrop to the conversations that proceed on this forum and in these specific threads.

In the largest sense what is this 'refusal'? How and when did it get set in motion? Why? I must stress again that it has to do with rejecting an other-world apperception-structure, which leads to a certain sort of schizophrenic self-separation and dissonance, and returning, with deliberateness, but not without conflict and a certain agony, to an 'embodied condition' (if you will accept my specific terms). The evidence must be brought forward to support this. But that evidence is not hard to come by. Consider in the most essential sense what many people *take away* from a close reading of Nietzsche. It is a 'return' to embodiedness. It is an acceptance of this condition, this reality, this necessity. My citations will perhaps be limited, and literary on the whole, but I will refer to, say, the novel Doctor Glas by Hjalmar Soderberg (1905) (I regard this novel as a study in what I refer to here), but also the works of Hermann Hesse and also Andre Gide. In fact there are too many examples. But what happens in these novels? Well, I suggest it is largely as I say: a return to embodiment and a return to the Earth. I do not want to be too broad nor to engage with the over-simplification and reduction I accuse others of, but I believe strongly that we must see this in order to better understand the conflicts of our day and age.

Now we have to broach the Emblem of Evil that the word Nazi embodies. My understanding is that this is one of the most difficult things. The term itself has been invested with many many layers of semiotic intensity. It operates in a profoundly 'religious' sense and I suppose it is fair to say that it contains and holds the sense of what Satan is, or at least was. Everything about evilness has been cast onto that world. The notion that the word expresses comes up everywhere, comes up daily and even minute-by-minute. The notion, in this sense, is a backdrop to a person's perception about the world and his or her being in that world. This seems like an exaggeration but I do not think it is.

Now why is Heidegger seen as both a Nazi and as (subtly? or not so subtly?) aligned with this evil of a metaphysical sort to which I allude? That is the biting question, isn't it? Why is his 'philosophy', which is not really his, but rather a rejection or refusal of an imposed other-idea through a longish cultural process, why is this seen as being aligned with absolute terrestrial evil? The fact of the matter is that this is the case. I myself have not done enough research into how Heidegger is framed, or explained, through these terms, yet I have at least begun.

Now I will try to say something about why Heidegger's ideas, and the notion of 'return to embodiedness', is so problematic. All according to my provisional understanding of course.

To propose Dasein is to propose and assert coming into or realizing a specific embodiedness. A situational embodiedness, a cultural and social embodiedness. It is the specific that is emphasized against, shall we say, the abstract and the general. One way that I understand this, though it is simplistic, is to grasp what people mean when they take issue with 'globalization'. What do they mean? They seem to mean that they resent and they refuse to be molded by forces outside of their own specific domain -- their specific being 'in time' I might add. So we must introduce it seems to me the notion of the counter-current that turns against the motions and currents of the present. This implies contrariness. This implies all that turning against the current implies. It is 'rebellion' and 'refusal'. But against what? and to what end?

When you examine those platforms of those who are actively and dedicatedly involved in these counter-current projects you will find a group and a set of guiding ideas. And most if not all of them have to do, it has seemed to me, with the specificity of specific people in specific circumstances who resist impositions and want, let's say, 'to be themselves'. To be what they are. To become what they are which, naturally, implies throwing off layers of imposition. Are their projects *authentic*? Are they justifiable? Who decides?

So my understanding is that those pesky Germanic peoples and the movements that precipitated the War, which were pan-European and had to do, at least this is my understanding, with specific people in specific localities determining just what, and who, they were and who and what they desired to be, as-against other determining forces and powers which, as they always will, seek to dominate and control them for their own purposes.

I admit that my grasp of this is sketchy. But when you consider 'social reaction' such as the case of social conservatism reacting against extreme forms of novelty (for example encroaching and expanding Marxist-Lenninism in the Interwar Period) it is always the case that what those social conservatives do is to set anchors in specific definitions of what is thought and held to be good & proper, right & necessary. It always seems to involve defining and asserting older idea-modes and also ways of being that are presented as, say, immutable and constant. And what is immutable and constant, perhaps from the perspective of a Dasein-philosophy, is the authentic being of a given people. Be they Japanese, Germans, Nigerians or rural Americans.

[Suite a la prochaine]
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:35 pm Well, that's for sure. If you have no definition of "dasein," I guess we're done on that.
I've come riding in on a 'dark horse' and saved the day in regard to that question! Note that the horse is dark when seen from certain angles, but then blazing white when looked upon from other angles. So luminous in fact that it hurts the eyes . . . 🤡
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:35 pm Well, that's for sure. If you have no definition of "dasein," I guess we're done on that.
I've come riding in on a 'dark horse' and saved the day in regard to that question!
Well, no...you have your definition of "dasein," perhaps. But what are our assurances that it's the same as iam's? It's certainly not the same as Heidegger's, because iam says it's not...it's his own, he says.

So what is it? I'm not able to guess: and I don't see how anyone else can, unless iam tells us.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:21 pm But what are our assurances that it's the same as iam's?
Well, my thought about this is that we do not really so much need a 'specific and academic definition'. Surely this can help (and I am not saying it is not necessary) but the point I want to make, because I feel it is true, is that we are all within the problem and issue proposed, or recognized and bird-dogged, by Heidegger and also Nietzsche.

I know too that you do not think this way. I also know that you think Nietzsche proposes minor problems that are easy to solve (that is how I would state it, unsure if you'd agree).

Even those who do not have any 'definitional structure' to their way of seeing and acting are still within the problem that I believe we are trying to outline in these conversations.

Iam has said enough, and I have said enough, to indicate that this issue is upon us. We live within it.

I am curious: What do you think of this view?
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by iambiguous »

Atla wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:43 am
So you just want to talk about how human values and identity are influenced by the time and place people are born into, without looking into the nature of human identity itself?
When it comes to "I" in the is/ought world of conflicting moral and political value judgments, the manner in which I construe dasein as the embodiment of one's existential parameters derived from historical, cultural and interpersonal interactions is for me basically the nature of human identity.

As opposed to those factors embedded more in the either/or world...age, height, weight, gender, race, ethnicity, place of birth, place of residence, childhood experiences, day to day experience, parents, community, nation.

Now, if you wish to focus in on what you construe to be the very nature of human identity itself, then note a specific set of circumstances, and describe your own Self in some detail.

It's just that my own propensity here is to focus in on "I" in the is/ought world. Why? Because that's where [by far] the most conflicts occur. Here we can construe the meaning and morality of any "specific situation" from very different perspectives.

So, using the tools of philosophy, is there a way to arrive at the most rational and virtuous frame of mind, precipitating in turn the most rational and virtuous behaviors?
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:35 pm
iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:31 am No sense in us wasting each other's time.
Well, that's for sure. If you have no definition of "dasein," I guess we're done on that.
I would hope so. I don't believe the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein above can be reduced down to a definition.


Or, perhaps, we should first establish technically, philosophically, didactically the definition of definition itself.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Atla »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:35 pm When it comes to "I" in the is/ought world of conflicting moral and political value judgments, the manner in which I construe dasein as the embodiment of one's existential parameters derived from historical, cultural and interpersonal interactions is for me basically the nature of human identity.
Ah okay. To me that's just a secondary issue about human identity, but I guess we can call it a philosophical issue too. Thanks for the clarification, Atla out
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