compatibilism

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Immanuel Can
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:10 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:30 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:40 pm
Is there some, "God of linquistics?"
No. It's a field of knowledge. In fact, it's a field taught at most universities.

The basic concept is this: when somebody says, "I'm determined to pass my entrance exam next Thursday," they mean something quite different from, "There is no possible way I can do anything but pass my entrance exam." :shock:

Determinism means the latter. You seem to be conflating the former with the latter, and that's causing the confusion. There are distinct uses of the word "determined," but "Determinism" is quite specific.
No, I mean determined as in, "the judge determined the sentence would be 30 days."
I didn't say those were the ONLY two uses. That's another one. There, the term is being used for something like "adjudicated" or "ruled."

So what have we got so far: well, that "determined" can be used colloquially to mean "resolved," or "ruled," or other things as well. But in the philosophical term "Determinism," refers specifically to the claim that all events are caused by physical-material (or divine) prior causes.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:41 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:33 pm But this is what it is really all about, isn't it:
No. That's the fourth point.
Fourth point, first point, tenth point. Rank it wherever you will. But for many the question regarding free will that most intrigues them is this: am I responsible for the behaviors I choose? And, in particular, am I morally responsible given that the behaviors I choose pertaining to moral and political conflicts can actually result in consequences that bring others suffering and pain. As well as happiness and joy.

Leopold and Loeb. There's that part where the argument revolves around whether they were ever able not to murder Bobby Frank. Then the part where if they were able to choose freely, is the jury then free to convict them? Was "society" then free to punish them by in turn taking their lives? Or was Darrow free to secure them life imprisonment instead? Then Loeb being murdered and Leopold paroled. What is really unfolding here in terms of the human brain either "somehow" acquiring autonomy or merely compelling all the parties involved to do only what they never could have not done?

A philosophical conundrum for many.

Only you demand a "resolution":
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:41 pmJust resolve the connundrum I've been putting to you, namely, "If Determinism is true, how come nobody ever lives as a Determinist?"
As though the argument that people live as though they have free will could not possibly be but a psychological illusion that too is built into a human brain wholly in sync with the laws of matter.

No, instead, only the definitions and deductions you use in your own "philosophical arguments" count.

As though you could take them to the neuroscientists and explain how your analytical assumptions will tip the balance in regard to the actual experiments they are conducting with actual functioning human brains.

Done any of that yourself of late?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:41 pm ..for many the question regarding free will that most intrigues them is this: am I responsible for the behaviors I choose?
That may be. I can't speak for them.

For me, it's the fourth point, not the first.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:41 pmJust resolve the connundrum I've been putting to you, namely, "If Determinism is true, how come nobody ever lives as a Determinist?"
As though the argument that people live as though they have free will could not possibly be but a psychological illusion that too is built into a human brain wholly in sync with the laws of matter.
It could, of course. But now we have to deal with the probility of such a hypothesis.

What purely-mechanical or material feature of the Deterministic universe would produce intelligent beings, but beings that cannot live as if Determinism were true? That would require some very interesting explanation.

The more natural hypothesis would be that the intelligent beings in question are simply not wrong about having volition of their own.

As for neurological findings, Henry was recommending the work of Dr. Wilder Penfield, which is most certainly an example of very winsome work by a neurologist that implies the existence of free will. But if you won't look at his evidence, then you're not going to find out you're simply wrong about there being no such evidence. He's certainly a case that shows there is.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:14 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:10 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:30 pm
No. It's a field of knowledge. In fact, it's a field taught at most universities.

The basic concept is this: when somebody says, "I'm determined to pass my entrance exam next Thursday," they mean something quite different from, "There is no possible way I can do anything but pass my entrance exam." :shock:

Determinism means the latter. You seem to be conflating the former with the latter, and that's causing the confusion. There are distinct uses of the word "determined," but "Determinism" is quite specific.
No, I mean determined as in, "the judge determined the sentence would be 30 days."
I didn't say those were the ONLY two uses. That's another one. There, the term is being used for something like "adjudicated" or "ruled."

So what have we got so far: well, that "determined" can be used colloquially to mean "resolved," or "ruled," or other things as well. But in the philosophical term "Determinism," refers specifically to the claim that all events are caused by physical-material (or divine) prior causes.
I have determined this discussion is a waste of time.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:14 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:10 pm
No, I mean determined as in, "the judge determined the sentence would be 30 days."
I didn't say those were the ONLY two uses. That's another one. There, the term is being used for something like "adjudicated" or "ruled."

So what have we got so far: well, that "determined" can be used colloquially to mean "resolved," or "ruled," or other things as well. But in the philosophical term "Determinism," refers specifically to the claim that all events are caused by physical-material (or divine) prior causes.
I have determined this discussion is a waste of time.
I knew you were determined not to engage it with seriousness. And I'm fated, destined, precertified, yea bound with the iron bands of kismet to remain untroubled by that. 8)
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Re: compatibilism

Post by promethean75 »

"the work of Dr. Wilder Penfield"

Be sure not to read any criticism of his work/theory.
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Re: Meanwhile...

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:23 pm
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:28 pm You clearly haven't. Whether my determinations are determined deterministically or of my own free will makes no determinable difference.
I clearly have. You have determined THAT "......makes no determinable difference"
I'll try and walk you through it. The issue is whether any collection of phenomena that refers to itself as yours truly has any degree of autonomy, or is always subject to laws of nature over which is has no control. In other words, is it me that decides or the laws of nature?
Skepdick wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:23 pm
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:28 pm Well, if that thing in your head is what makes certain decisions for you, are you in those instances choosing freely?
Irrespective of the qualification (free, slowly, cautiously, desperately, lavishly, irately). Irrespective of how I feel about my choosing I would still be choosing.
Yes, but again is there some aspect of your mind which is not subject to cause and effect?
Skepdick wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:23 pm
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:28 pm Given that the nub of my argument is that I don't believe future behaviour can be predicted.
What a peculiar belief. Given that I predict I am about to drink some wine. And wouldn't you know it...
Well aren't you the soothsayer? The issue is whether some being or computer could tell you what you were about to do, and you be powerless to do otherwise.
Skepdick wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:23 pm
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:28 pm why would I care about an argument, which you don't care about, except you do, that is predicated precisely on what I don't believe possible?
I don't care about the argument precisely for the reasons that you keep arguing that the possible is impossible.
What are you talking about? Firstly, why introduce an argument you don't care about? Secondly, I do not keep arguing that the possible is impossible. Here is what I have said:
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:49 amI am not a determinist for the simple reason that I don't like the idea. My strongest argument against determinism is that if my beliefs and behaviour are the product of immutable forces, they could in principle be calculated to predict my future behaviour unerringly. It is my firm belief that being presented with that future, I could choose to do otherwise. There is no immediate prospect of that being tested, so I simply stick with the option I prefer/am stuck with. I don't believe in determinism any more than I believe in any god you choose to name, but I concede that pretty much anything is possible.
Skepdick wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:23 pmI've come to generally expect that when people make arguments they have no fucking idea what you are talking about; or why they are talking about it.
It's just you Skepdick; you are so busy trying to score points, you don't pay any attention to what I actually say.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by promethean75 »

'Course using the word 'determinism' brings with its use connotations that end up making us anthropomorphize causation. Your homegirl Rosa explains. This from a thread at Revleft many moons ago:

-----

Ok, here is my summary [of my ideas on 'determinism'], but comrades should not expect a water-tight solution to such a knotty problem in a few paragraphs. I am only posting this because I was asked to do so.

[I will however be publishing an essay specifically about this in the next few years, where I will substantiate what I have to say below far more fully.]

This issue has always revolved around the use of terminology drawn from traditional philosophy (such as "determined", "will", "free", and the like), the use of which bears no relation to how these words are employed in ordinary speech.

For example, "determine" and its cognates are typically used in sentences like this "The rules determine what you can do in chess", "The time of the next train can be determined from the timetable", or "I am determined to go on the demonstration" and so on. Hence this word is normally used in relation to what human beings can do, can apply, or can bring about.

As we will see, their use in traditional thought inverts this, making nature the agent and human beings the patient. No wonder then that the 'solution' to this artificial problem (i.e., 'determinism' and 'free will') has eluded us for over 2000 years.

To use an analogy, would we take seriously anyone who wondered when the King and Queen in chess got married, and then wanted to know who conducted the ceremony? Or, whether planning permission had been sought for that castle over in the corner? Such empty questions, of course, have no answer.

To be sure, this is more difficult to see in relation to the traditional question at hand, but it is nonetheless the result of similar confusions. So, it is my contention that this 'problem' has only arisen because ideologically-motivated theorists (from centuries ago) asked such empty questions, based on a misuse of language. [More on this below.]

When the details are worked out, 'determinism', for instance, can only be made to seem to work if nature is anthropomorphised, so that such things as 'natural law' 'determine' the course of events -- both in reality in general and in the central nervous system in particular -- thus 'controlling' what we do.

But, this is to take concepts that properly apply to what we do and can decide, and then impose them on natural events, suggesting that nature is controlled by a cosmic will of some sort. [Why this is so, I will outline presently.]

So, it's natural to ask: Where is this law written, and who passed it?

Of course, the answer to these questions is "No one" and "Nowhere", but then how can something that does not exist control anything?

It could be responded that natural law is just a summary of how things have so far gone up to now. In that case, such 'laws' are descriptive not prescriptive -- but it is the latter of these implications that determinists need.

Now, the introduction of modal notions here (such as 'must', or 'necessary') cannot be justified from this descriptive nature of 'law' without re-introducing the untoward anthropomorphic connotations mentioned above.

So, if we say that A has always followed B, we cannot now say A must follow B unless we attribute to B some form of control over A (and recall A has not yet happened, so what B is supposed to be controlling is somewhat obscure). And if we now try to say what we mean by 'control' (on lines such as 'could not be otherwise', or 'B made A happen') we need to explain how B prevented, say, C happening instead, and made sure that A, and only A took place.

The use of "obey" here would give the game away, since if this word is used with connotations that go beyond mere description, then this will imply that events like A understand the 'law' (like so many good citizens), and always do the same when B beckons, right across the entire universe --, and, indeed, that this 'law' must exist in some form to make things obey it. Of course, if it doesn't mean this, then what does it mean?

Now, I maintain that any attempt to fill in the details here will introduce notions of will and intelligence into the operation of B on A (and also on C) -- and that is why theorists have found they have had to drag in anthropomorphic concepts here (such as 'determine', 'obey' 'law' and 'control') to fill this gap, failing to note that the use of such words does indeed imply there is a will of some sort operating in nature. [But, note the qualification I introduce here, below. There were ideological reasons why these words were in fact used.]

If this is denied then 'determine' (etc.) can only be working descriptively, and we are back at square one.

Incidentally, the above problems are not to be avoided by the introduction of biochemical, neurological, and/or physiological objects and processes. The same questions apply here as elsewhere: how can, for example, a certain chemical 'control' what happens next unless it is intelligent in some way? Reducing this to physics is even worse; how can 'the field' (or whatever) control the future? 'The field' is a mathematical object and no more capable of controlling anything than a Hermite polynomial is. Of course, and once more, to argue otherwise would be to anthropomorphise such things -- which is why I made the argument above abstract, since it covers all bases.

This also explains why theorists (and particularly scientists who try to popularise their work) find they have to use 'scare quotes' and metaphor everywhere in this area.

As I noted earlier, this whole way of looking at 'the will' inverts things. We are denied a will (except formally) and nature is granted one. As many might now be able to see, this is yet another aspect of the alienating nature of traditional thought, where words are fetishised and we are dehumanised.

And this should not surprise us since such questions were originally posed theologically (and thus ideologically), where theorists were quite happy to alienate to 'god' such control over nature and our supposedly 'free' actions'. Hence, we too find that we have to appropriate such distorted terminology if we follow traditional patterns of thought in this area.

No wonder Marx argued:

The philosophers have only to dissolve their language into the ordinary language, from which it is abstracted, in order to recognise it, as the distorted language of the actual world, and to realise that neither thoughts nor language in themselves form a realm of their own, that they are only manifestations of actual life. [Marx and Engels (1970), p.118.]

And:

The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas; hence of the relationships which make the one class the ruling one, therefore, the ideas of its dominance. The individuals composing the ruling class possess among other things consciousness, and therefore think. Insofar, therefore, as they rule as a class and determine the extent and compass of an epoch, it is self-evident that they do this in its whole range, hence among other things rule also as thinkers, as producers of ideas, and regulate the production and distribution of the ideas of their age: thus their ideas are the ruling ideas of the epoch. For instance, in an age and in a country where royal power, aristocracy, and bourgeoisie are contending for mastery and where, therefore, mastery is shared, the doctrine of the separation of powers proves to be the dominant idea and is expressed as an 'eternal law.' [Ibid., pp.64-65.]

These concepts "rule" us too if we are suitably uncritical.

Many of these ideas are not original to me (but the Marxist application of them is). They first appeared, as far as I am aware, in Bertrand Russell's essay:

Russell, B. (1917a), 'On The Notion Of A Cause', in Russell (1917b), pp.132-51.

--------, (1917b), Mysticism And Logic (George, Allen and Unwin).

These ideas can be found explicitly stated in the following (but not from a Marxist angle):

Gallop, D. (1962), 'On Being Determined', Mind 71, pp.181-96.

I have also followed this analysis of 'law':

Swartz, N. (1985), The Concept Of A Physical Law (Cambridge University Press).

--------, (2006), 'Laws Of Nature', Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

A PDF of the former can be downloaded here:

http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/physical-law/

The latter is found here:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/lawofnat/

Influential Wittgensteinian criticisms of modern scientistic philosophies of 'mind' can be found here:

Bennett, M., and Hacker, P. (2003), Philosophical Foundations Of Neuroscience (Blackwell).

--------, (2008), History Of Cognitive Neuroscience (Blackwell).

Those who think an appeal to ordinary language is inappropriate here should re-read what Marx said above, consult the first half of following, and then think again:

Button, G., Coulter, J., Lee, J., and Sharrock, W. (1995), Computers, Minds And Conduct (Polity Press).

The bottom line is that Marxists have been too quick to appropriate concepts and forms-of-thought from traditional (alienated ruling-class) philosophy without subjecting them to close enough scrutiny. Unfortunately, this means that while our politics seems radical enough, our theory (both here and in relation to dialectics, for example) is thoroughly traditional -- and, if I may say so, disconcertingly conservative.

I explain why I say this in the first few sections of the following:

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/page%2002.htm

Finally, I'd try to get this material published in Marxist journals, etc., but I am generally treated as a pariah, and face emotive and irrational hostility wherever I try to present such ideas.

Seems "ruling ideas rule" comrades who are editors, too.

Of course, the above does not imply I believe in something called 'The Freedom of the Will'.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by henry quirk »

promethean75 wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:43 pm "the work of Dr. Wilder Penfield"

Be sure not to read any criticism of his work/theory.
No, read it all: Penfield's book, and the bonafide criticisms of his book.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:10 am
promethean75 wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:43 pm "the work of Dr. Wilder Penfield"

Be sure not to read any criticism of his work/theory.
No, read it all: Penfield's book, and the bonafide criticisms of his book.
With some, it doesn't seem to be about whether or not the evidence actually exists; it seems to be more a case of, "You can't prove to me anything from something I staunchly refuse to know."
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Re: Meanwhile...

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:55 pm I'll try and walk you through it. The issue is whether any collection of phenomena that refers to itself as yours truly has any degree of autonomy, or is always subject to laws of nature over which is has no control. In other words, is it me that decides or the laws of nature?
You don't need to walk me through something I already understand.

To re-use some of the language that you are using. The issue of autonomy is exactly the same issue as whether you have any influence/control over "the laws" of nature.

It is still an issue of determinim because you have to determine (at least) three things:

1. You have to determine what those laws are.
2. You have to determine the strictness of those laws.
3. You have to determine whether a non-strict law (a law that you can bend/control to any degree) is actually a law.

That's a lot of determination for a non-determinist!
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:55 pm Yes, but again is there some aspect of your mind which is not subject to cause and effect?
To some degree my mind is subject to cause effect.
To some degree it isn't.

Which leads us right back to determining "strictness" (point 3 above). Is my choice "free" if that degree is infietisimal, but not zero?
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:55 pm Well aren't you the soothsayer? The issue is whether some being or computer could tell you what you were about to do, and you be powerless to do otherwise.
Like I predicted you'll respond to my comment? Where's your freedom now?

Newcomb's paradox leads precisely to the stand-off between causal vs evidential vs retrocausal decision theory.

Did I cause you to respond?
Did the evidence of my comment existing cause you to respond?
Did my prediction (knowledge of the future) to you responding to my comment cause you to respond?
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:55 pm Here is what I have said:
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:49 amI am not a determinist for the simple reason that I don't like the idea. My strongest argument against determinism is that if my beliefs and behaviour are the product of immutable forces, they could in principle be calculated to predict my future behaviour unerringly. It is my firm belief that being presented with that future, I could choose to do otherwise. There is no immediate prospect of that being tested, so I simply stick with the option I prefer/am stuck with. I don't believe in determinism any more than I believe in any god you choose to name, but I concede that pretty much anything is possible.
So it is possible that you didn't determine that you are a non-determinist?

Because from where I am looking you did determine that. So if it's possible that it's not possible then we have a problem.
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:55 pm It's just you Skepdick; you are so busy trying to score points, you don't pay any attention to what I actually say.
I am paying a lot of attention to what you are saying. I am also pointing out that you have no actual idea WHY you are saying it.

You can't even determine if what you are saying is caused by me, retrocaused by my prediction, or freely said by you.
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Re: Meanwhile...

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:02 am
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:55 pm I'll try and walk you through it. The issue is whether any collection of phenomena that refers to itself as yours truly has any degree of autonomy, or is always subject to laws of nature over which is has no control. In other words, is it me that decides or the laws of nature?
You don't need to walk me through something I already understand.

To re-use some of the language that you are using. The issue of autonomy is exactly the same issue as whether you have any influence/control over "the laws" of nature.

It is still an issue of determinim because you have to determine (at least) three things:
I'll try again. The English language is such that I can write 'How I determined something, is determined by whether my thought processes are determined.' Determinism, as it applies to philosophy, only refers to the final use. The above sentence can be written many different ways; for example: 'How I reach decisions depends on whether my thought processes are subject to determinism.'
Skepdick wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:02 am1. You have to determine what those laws are.
2. You have to determine the strictness of those laws.
3. You have to determine whether a non-strict law (a law that you can bend/control to any degree) is actually a law.

That's a lot of determination for a non-determinist!
Indeed. The point is: would determinations I reached by my own autonomous efforts be different to any that result from my thought processes being the product of inexorable causal chains?
Skepdick wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:02 am
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:55 pm Yes, but again is there some aspect of your mind which is not subject to cause and effect?
To some degree my mind is subject to cause effect.
To some degree it isn't.

Which leads us right back to determining "strictness" (point 3 above). Is my choice "free" if that degree is infietisimal, but not zero?
So your answer is yes, there is some aspect of your mind which is not subject to cause and effect.
Skepdick wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:02 am
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:55 pm Well aren't you the soothsayer? The issue is whether some being or computer could tell you what you were about to do, and you be powerless to do otherwise.
Like I predicted you'll respond to my comment? Where's your freedom now?
Well done again. The point I am making is that if my thoughts are determined by immutable physics, then it is conceivable that those physics could be calculated so accurately that you not only could predict that I would respond, as I have many times before, you could tell me what I was going to write; and if your calculations were correct, I would be powerless to write anything different. I do not think that is true, but I concede it might be.
Skepdick wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:02 amI am paying a lot of attention to what you are saying. I am also pointing out that you have no actual idea WHY you are saying it.

You can't even determine if what you are saying is caused by me, retrocaused by my prediction, or freely said by you.
It demonstrable that you are not. I'll say it again:
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:49 am...I concede that pretty much anything is possible.
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Re: Meanwhile...

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:34 am I'll try again. The English language is such that I can write 'How I determined something, is determined by whether my thought processes are determined.' Determinism, as it applies to philosophy, only refers to the final use. The above sentence can be written many different ways; for example: 'How I reach decisions depends on whether my thought processes are subject to determinism.'
Potato. Potatoh.

Call it determination, decision, assertion, judgment, choice. Whatever you call it - it's the same idea.

And no matter how hard you work at projecting those ideas ontologically, you then have to project a meta-ontological layer beneath that in order to
determine how to determine that your determinism is true. Or false.
uwot wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:34 am Indeed. The point is: would determinations I reached by my own autonomous efforts be different to any that result from my thought processes being the product of inexorable causal chains?
They would be different. IF you could determine a difference.

So you have to determine what it means "to determine a difference".
uwot wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:34 am So your answer is yes, there is some aspect of your mind which is not subject to cause and effect.
That isn't my answer.

My answer is that I have determined that I cannot determine whether any aspect of my mind is NOT subject to cause and effect.
uwot wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:34 am Well done again. The point I am making is that if my thoughts are determined by immutable physics, then it is conceivable that those physics could be calculated so accurately that you not only could predict that I would respond, as I have many times before, you could tell me what I was going to write; and if your calculations were correct, I would be powerless to write anything different.
Of course it's conceivable, but that doesn't change anything in practice unless you've determined what it means to freely choose.
What would it even mean to be "powerless to write anything different"? How would anyone even determine your powerlesnessness?

I mean, IF your freedom is Infinitesimal, but not zero there is always a non-zero chance you could do something other than my precise prediction.

Just because I have always perfectly predicted and calcluated every single thing you do it doesn't mean your Infinitesimal freedom won't sneak up on me via the backdoor of induction at some point in future.
uwot wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:34 am It demonstrable that you are not. I'll say it again:
uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:49 am...I concede that pretty much anything is possible.
You are NOT conceding any of that. For you to concede it, then you have to concede that something which is absolutely impossible is possible.

And the absolute impossibility I am pointing out is that it's impossible for any human to determine whether the universe is deterministic or non-deterministic!

In as much as you are calling yourself a non-determinist you are exemplifying a different kind of determinism. Self-determinism.

Both determinists and non-determinists are self-determinists.
Last edited by Skepdick on Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meanwhile...

Post by Dubious »

uwot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:49 am...I concede that pretty much anything is possible.
As far as I can tell, this simply defaults to a formality of logic since we cannot actually prove that something or anything is impossible. Therefore an infinitesimal probability of something being true always exists bordering on the near absolute certainty that it does not.
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Re: Meanwhile...

Post by Skepdick »

Dubious wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:24 am As far as I can tell, this simply defaults to a formality of logic since we cannot actually prove that something or anything is impossible.
All coherent notions of proof require axioms - prior assumptions.
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