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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

uwot wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:42 pmI think you are an idiot, and I realised that quite some time ago.
So, as you may have noticed I try to *work with what I am given* and I find that, inadvertently, you provide me with material to work with. So I try to take what I am given and work with it. Such is the case with the term *idiot*.

This for you is a very real term -- you actually do mean to say that those who do not and will not come under the influence of your (reductive) ideas and who, like you, abandon what I can call an *entire territory* of value & meaning -- are to be labeled by you as idiots. You mean mental deficient of course and lacking in some type of basic, computational intelligence that you favor to an extreme. To follow your reasoning is not hard. Your analysis is simple indeed. In fact it has hardly any moving parts. And in this, as I often point out, is its own deficiency.

There is an essay by Walter C. Parker called Teaching Against Idiocy that hits numerous notes that are easy to bring into this present *conversation*. Yet it must be stated up front that conversation with you must always appear in quotes because, as you must be aware (?) your purpose has nothing at all to do with exchange of viewpoint or of understanding, and your sole focus is to attack and tear down all that you have come to feel (intense) contempt for. You say "I'm really not that martial" and yet, if the truth is stated, you are highly and indeed exclusively martial and bent on war. And in your way of seeing things you have a valid justification since you are battling the *idiocy* you identify. So what I wish to express here, and it has run through everything I write, is that you are part of on-going cultural and intellectual militancy that is really very serious business. If you described your project in any other way I think it would be fair to say you are being dishonest.

Some quotes from Teaching Against Idiocy:
Idiocy shares with idiom and idiosyncratic the root idios, which means private, separate, self-centered — selfish. “Idiotic” was in the Greek context a term of reproach. When a person’s behavior became idiotic — concerned myopically with private things and unmindful of common things — then the person was believed to be like a rudderless ship, without consequence save for the danger it posed to others. This meaning of idiocy achieves its force when contrasted with politēs (citizen) or public. Here we have a powerful opposition: the private individual versus the public citizen.
I think one of my larger arguments against *you-plural* is that I perceive you indeed as acting idiotically. I know that you conceive of yourself as acting out of higher reason but my assertion is that when one examines this one discovers, quite quickly in fact, that this is not at all the case. Your critiques are brutal (in the original sense of the word) and the parameters of your understanding excruciatingly limited. There is something deeply solipsistic in you and this is why I say you *write from your closet*. You have become exceedingly myopic -- militantly myopic -- that you have lost all insight into those things describable as 'common things' (κοινὰ τὰ τῶν φίλων) because -- and this is my interpretation -- your hatred has intensified to the degree it blinds you. And for this reason I employ those two metaphors : one of Gloucester "I stumbled when I saw" and the other of Blake where a poignant contrast is drawn between seeing with the eye and seeing through the eye. Thus I say that you have no capacity to see through the eye. The entire idea is suspect since you have only the 'physical eye' as a reference-point. And my point is that everything of meaning & value depends, nearly absolutely, on seeing through the eye. So if Blake is right in any sense at all it could be fairly sugested, as a starting point of conversation, that you are believing a lie even as you really imagine you are positing 'truth'.

This is all of it a curious paradox.

But there are further dimensions here. That you end up creating conditions of rudderlessness (rudderless ship) which, from the perspective of those you hold in open contempt, pose a danger about which you choose, through an effort of will, to remain ignorant. Half of what I have written recently is about that. But it goes in one idiotic ear and out the other and indeed it cannot *register* in you at any level.
An idiot is one whose self-centeredness undermines his or her citizen identity, causing it to wither or never to take root in the first place. Private gain is the goal, and the community had better not get in the way. An idiot is suicidal in a certain way, definitely self-defeating, for the idiot does not know that privacy and individual autonomy are entirely dependent on the community. As Aristotle wrote, “Individuals are so many parts all equally depending on the whole which alone can bring self-sufficiency.” Idiots do not take part in public life; they do not have a public life. In this sense, idiots are immature in the most fundamental way. Their lives are out of balance, disoriented, untethered, and unrealized. Tragically, idiots have not yet met the challenge of “puberty,” which is the transition to public life.
If I say that you seem 'illiterate' I do not mean that you have not come face-to-face with some books in your academic life -- you certainly have -- but I make the suggestion that you must never have read very well. I often refer to an Allen Ginsberg quote from the poem Howl : "What sphinx of cement and aluminum bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination?" Ginsberg loved Blake of course and though I would not reference Ginsberg as a source of wisdom per se the quote has validity. How did it come about that entire realms of knowing and knowledge (epistemes) became for you darkened areas? What idiotic defect manifests in you that it seems to block out the sun?

This is where (to bend the meaning expressed in the quoted passage) you seem like an underdeveloped child. It is a metaphor so don't get bent out of shape Wee Willy. It is a way of saying that there is a dimension of perception that you have closed yourself off from. But there are many brilliant Englishmen who never did cut themselves off as you have done. No, they kept these channels so it never could be said about them that some monster "bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination".

So my suggestion -- and note that I continually turn the harsh lens of examination around and apply it to you -- is that your own willed idiocy be closer examined.
Alexis de Tocqueville, writing 150 years before Mayor Kemmis, also described idiocy. All democratic peoples face a “dangerous passage” in their history, he wrote, when they “are carried away and lose all self-restraint at the sight of the new possessions they are about to obtain.” De Tocqueville's principle concern was that getting "carried away” causes citizens to lose the very freedom they are wanting so much to enjoy. “These people think they are following the principle of self-interest,” he continues, “but the idea they entertain of that principle is a very crude one; and the more they look after what they call their own business, they neglect their chief business, which is to remain their own masters.”

Just how do people remain their own masters? By maintaining the kind of community that secures their liberty. De Tocqueville’s singular contribution to our understanding of idiocy and citizenship is the notion that idiots are idiotic precisely because they are indifferent to the conditions and contexts of their own freedom. They fail to grasp the interdependence of liberty and community, privacy and puberty.
First, I fully admit that in the widest sense Christianity and Christians can definitely be critiqued. I am not at all closed to Nietzsche's points of critique in many areas. So what I say is that all of this are things that can be discussed. But I recognize a lower dimension of understanding and a higher level of understanding when it comes to the inner core of the Christian concepts. So it is quite fair to say there are many *morons* in our world who express themselves through their religious assertions (and who close many doors to other sorts of knowing) in a moronic fashion. Yet it is also entirely fair to say that there are very high-level Christians who reveal an entirely different sort of relationship. And that material as it were is found in the best of our traditions.

So I am interested in how it has come about that you have lost all self-restraint at the sight of the new possessions you set about to obtain through your enormous rejectionism and negationism. In this sense you demonstrate the 'dangerous passage' that we face not insofar as you could have valid criticism of Christian religionists, but that you blindly tear at things you do not sufficiently understand. It is a classic error really. And I suggest it is a defining error that needs to be seen and better understood.

What did Tocqueville mean when he spoke of what can undermine or extinguish their liberty? Liberty in a (higher) Christian sense is a wide territory of concern. Idiotas like you, and idiotas also like Belinda (I am here employing your own term in a conscious reversal), have largely lost (or severed) the always recognized connection between inner, spiritual liberty and outer political liberty. This is a topic of real consequence today, yet it is not something that you talk about. I suspect you are unaware that when the conceptual path to the higher dimension of *the Christian possibility* is foiled that there are all sorts of ramifications and symptoms that become manifest. Thus 'remaining one's own master' is the topic and how one does this the subject of conversation.

So I could go on in this vein of course. I do what I can with what I am offered.
Last edited by Alexis Jacobi on Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:33 amI think if you really apply yourself, you may work your way up to this...
👏🏻 Clap Clap Clap 👏🏻

Fair as forum insults go.

I would describe you in these musical terms.

Where you present yourself, milk curdles . . . 😂

Here, listen to this enough times and it may begin to uncurdle you. (E-flat major can do this and more).
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Sculptor
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Re: Christianity

Post by Sculptor »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:34 pm
Dubious wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:33 amI think if you really apply yourself, you may work your way up to this...
👏🏻 Clap Clap Clap 👏🏻

Fair as forum insults go.

I would describe you in these musical terms.

Where you present yourself, milk curdles . . . 😂

Here, listen to this enough times and it may begin to uncurdle you. (E-flat major can do this and more).
I'm puzzling to see how that Satie could "curdle" anyone. It might be a cure for insomnia though.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:56 pmI'm puzzling to see how that Satie could "curdle" anyone. It might be a cure for insomnia though.
Oh just having a bit of fun -- as if people and what they say and think and their *position* could be reduced to or expressed through asserting that they perform in a certain musical scale. Some positions, literally, just repeat & repeat & repeat without much variation. To be 'vexed' in French is to become frustrated and angered.

But in regard to the musical mechanics of Vexations it is composed in the augmented 4th which is also known as tritone or diabolus in musica (the devil in music).
Erik Satie’s strange piano piece Vexations probably dates from around 1893 or 1894. It begins with a slowly moving 18-note theme. Then the theme repeats, this time harmonized in the right hand by two voices moving mostly in parallel tritones. Following a second statement of the single-line theme, the tritone harmonization is then inverted. Simple as that, except that Satie asks you to play Vexations 840 times. Actually, it’s more of a suggestion than an imperative. Satie’s inscription (in French) translates: “In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious immobilities.” In any event, Noriko Ogawa spares us 840 repetitions, opting instead for a mere 142.
More on Diabolus in Musica:
Everyone knows the sounds of Halloween: creaky floorboards, howling winds, the amplified sound of a beating heart. But back in the day, the devil was said to exist in a particular musical tone. For centuries, it was called the devil's interval — or, in Latin, diabolus in musica. In music theory, it's called the "tritone" because it's made of three whole steps.

"The reason it's unsettling is that it's ambiguous, unresolved," says Gerald Moshell, Professor of Music at Trinity College in Hartford, Conn. "It wants to go somewhere. It wants to settle either here, or [there]. You don't know where it'll go, but it can't stop where it is."

There used to be rules against writing music that contained this interval. Moshell says that during the Renaissance, all music had one purpose: to be beautiful and express the majesty of God. Anything otherwise was studiously avoided. But once music was no longer shackled to the church, it was free to express all kinds of tension. The devil's interval was ideal for that.

From classical to jazz to rock and even Broadway musicals, the tritone conveys feelings ranging from forbidden love and longing to fear and defiance.
Danse macabre . . .
Zig, zig, zig, Death in a cadence,
Striking with his heel a tomb,
Death at midnight plays a dance-tune,
Zig, zig, zig, on his violin.
The winter wind blows and the night is dark;
Moans are heard in the linden trees.
Through the gloom, white skeletons pass,
Running and leaping in their shrouds.
Zig, zig, zig, each one is frisking,
The bones of the dancers are heard to crack—
But hist! of a sudden they quit the round,
They push forward, they fly; the cock has crowed.
Another example of the interval
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:34 pm
Dubious wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:33 amI think if you really apply yourself, you may work your way up to this...
👏🏻 Clap Clap Clap 👏🏻

Fair as forum insults go.

I would describe you in these musical terms.

Where you present yourself, milk curdles . . . 😂

Here, listen to this enough times and it may begin to uncurdle you. (E-flat major can do this and more).
The video was not available in my area. You may want to submit another sample. In the meantime, this is how I would only partially describe myself in music, since music itself can be a philosophy.

In my more mystical, contemplative moments...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23cLITk ... rt_radio=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZfR3JzCV8I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBqwAGj5fDA

or depending on mood....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRgADKjcp9E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly6FOhS8Z_w
uwot
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Re: Christianity

Post by uwot »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:29 pm
uwot wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:42 pmI think you are an idiot, and I realised that quite some time ago.
So, as you may have noticed I try to *work with what I am given* and I find that, inadvertently, you provide me with material to work with. So I try to take what I am given and work with it. Such is the case with the term *idiot*.

This for you is a very real term -- you actually do mean to say that those who do not and will not come under the influence of your (reductive) ideas and who, like you, abandon what I can call an *entire territory* of value & meaning -- are to be labeled by you as idiots.
Well Gus, an example of an idiot is someone who can be told repeatedly that I like stories and have no objection to people believing them, but who blunders on with their own story which ignores that crucial piece of information. As someone who tries to "*work with what I am given*", have you considered trying to work with the one thing I keep telling you?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

uwot wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:53 amWell Gus ...
When I insisted that Wee Willy church go with me . . .

It is part of the apprenticeship. But really Willy! such blasphemies!

I'm off on a bikepacking trip but when I get back I will post a translation.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:25 pm . . . since music itself can be a philosophy.
How would you go about describing that? Music as philosophy?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

A serious house on serious earth it is,
In whose blent air all our compulsions meet,
Are recognised, and robed as destinies.
And that much never can be obsolete,
Since someone will forever be surprising
A hunger in himself to be more serious,
And gravitating with it to this ground,
Which, he once heard, was proper to grow wise in,
If only that so many dead lie round.

-- Philip Larkin, Church Going
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:08 pm
Dubious wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:25 pm . . . since music itself can be a philosophy.
How would you go about describing that? Music as philosophy?
That is a big topic. Everything in the universe vibrates at different frequencies. Music is an expression of the power of vibrations and its effect on the human psych. From the music of the spheres down to the music of earthly expressions having both negative an positive effects, it is all qualities of vibrations.

The purpose of the Christian choir is to achieve the complimentary vibration of men and women free of emotion to reveal the wholeness of human being.
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:56 pm That is a big topic. Everything in the universe vibrates at different frequencies,
... the White Queen said to Alice.
More impossible things to believe before breakfast.
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:50 pm
Nick_A wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:56 pm That is a big topic. Everything in the universe vibrates at different frequencies,
... the White Queen said to Alice.
More impossible things to believe before breakfast.
What is it that inspires a little thought beyond conditioned preconceptions provokes such negativity? I know you don't understand that all matter in the universe vibrates. The days of the simple "I don't understand this" is now met with negative intellectual sarcasm as though you do understand. Is it any wonder why only a few can understand Christianity? Their negativity prevents it
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:12 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:50 pm
Nick_A wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:56 pm That is a big topic. Everything in the universe vibrates at different frequencies,
... the White Queen said to Alice.
More impossible things to believe before breakfast.
What is it that inspires a little thought beyond conditioned preconceptions provokes such negativity? I know you don't understand that all matter in the universe vibrates. The days of the simple "I don't understand this" is now met with negative intellectual sarcasm as though you do understand. Is it any wonder why only a few can understand Christianity? Their negativity prevents it
It's odd actually, that it is Christians who do not understand Christianity. Just like those Melanesia Cargo Cults, the only ones who believe in them are those who do hot understand they are just empty superstitions that accomplish nothing, just Christianity, which is a bit more sophisticated, but every bit as absurd.

As for believing, "everything in the universe vibrates," it's just empty words. What does, "vibrate," mean? Vibration is always the consequence of some set of forces--it doesn't just happen. Actually nothing in the universe vibrates except under unique conditions and unless the force that generates the vibration continues, all vibrations are self-damping. You are right, somebody really does hot understand vibrations.
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:01 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:12 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:50 pm ... the White Queen said to Alice.
What is it that inspires a little thought beyond conditioned preconceptions provokes such negativity? I know you don't understand that all matter in the universe vibrates. The days of the simple "I don't understand this" is now met with negative intellectual sarcasm as though you do understand. Is it any wonder why only a few can understand Christianity? Their negativity prevents it
It's odd actually, that it is Christians who do not understand Christianity. Just like those Melanesia Cargo Cults, the only ones who believe in them are those who do hot understand they are just empty superstitions that accomplish nothing, just Christianity, which is a bit more sophisticated, but every bit as absurd.

___________________________________________
The very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting]rom the inception if the human race until the coming if Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion which was already in existence began to be called Christian. -ST. AUGUSTINE, Retractiones

There is one Christianity. What you see in the world is just devolutions of Christianity into man made interpretations known as Christendom. There are many paths of Christendom but just one Christianity.

As for believing, "everything in the universe vibrates," it's just empty words. What does, "vibrate," mean? Vibration is always the consequence of some set of forces--it doesn't just happen. Actually nothing in the universe vibrates except under unique conditions and unless the force that generates the vibration continues, all vibrations are self-damping. You are right, somebody really does hot understand vibrations.

You have already made up your mind. You wrote nothing in the universe vibrates. I said all matter vibrates. For people to communicate they must open their mind to what another is saying. But we cannot do this and prefer to condemn it without even understanding the depth of an idea.
The great Third Hermetic Principle--the Principle of Vibration--embodies the truth that Motion is manifest in everything in the Universe--that nothing is at rest--that everything moves, vibrates, and circles. This Hermetic Principle was recognized by some of the early Greek philosophers who embodied it in their systems. But, then, for centuries it was lost sight of by the thinkers outside of the Hermetic ranks. But in the Nineteenth Century physical science re-discovered the truth and the Twentieth Century scientific discoveries have added additional proof of the correctness and truth of this centuries-old Hermetic doctrine.
It is easy to ridicule what we don't understand. Some others prefer the joy of contemplation which leads to understanding the deeper idea of Christianity.
“One must not think slightingly of the paradoxical…for the paradox is the source of the thinker's passion, and the thinker without a paradox is like a lover without feeling: a paltry mediocrity.” Soren Kierkegaard
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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:01 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:01 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:12 pm

What is it that inspires a little thought beyond conditioned preconceptions provokes such negativity? I know you don't understand that all matter in the universe vibrates. The days of the simple "I don't understand this" is now met with negative intellectual sarcasm as though you do understand. Is it any wonder why only a few can understand Christianity? Their negativity prevents it
It's odd actually, that it is Christians who do not understand Christianity. Just like those Melanesia Cargo Cults, the only ones who believe in them are those who do hot understand they are just empty superstitions that accomplish nothing, just Christianity, which is a bit more sophisticated, but every bit as absurd.

___________________________________________
The very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting]rom the inception if the human race until the coming if Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion which was already in existence began to be called Christian. -ST. AUGUSTINE, Retractiones

There is one Christianity. What you see in the world is just devolutions of Christianity into man made interpretations known as Christendom. There are many paths of Christendom but just one Christianity.

As for believing, "everything in the universe vibrates," it's just empty words. What does, "vibrate," mean? Vibration is always the consequence of some set of forces--it doesn't just happen. Actually nothing in the universe vibrates except under unique conditions and unless the force that generates the vibration continues, all vibrations are self-damping. You are right, somebody really does hot understand vibrations.

You have already made up your mind. You wrote nothing in the universe vibrates. I said all matter vibrates. For people to communicate they must open their mind to what another is saying. But we cannot do this and prefer to condemn it without even understanding the depth of an idea.
The great Third Hermetic Principle--the Principle of Vibration--embodies the truth that Motion is manifest in everything in the Universe--that nothing is at rest--that everything moves, vibrates, and circles. This Hermetic Principle was recognized by some of the early Greek philosophers who embodied it in their systems. But, then, for centuries it was lost sight of by the thinkers outside of the Hermetic ranks. But in the Nineteenth Century physical science re-discovered the truth and the Twentieth Century scientific discoveries have added additional proof of the correctness and truth of this centuries-old Hermetic doctrine.
It is easy to ridicule what we don't understand. Some others prefer the joy of contemplation which leads to understanding the deeper idea of Christianity.
“One must not think slightingly of the paradoxical…for the paradox is the source of the thinker's passion, and the thinker without a paradox is like a lover without feeling: a paltry mediocrity.” Soren Kierkegaard
Believe what you like, especially if you are truly happy with your life. I have no interest in changing your views. Are you totally satisfied with your life, without any regret, dispair, or guilt? If so, good for you. If your life is not complete, if you are dissatsified with any aspect of it, perhaps you need to change some of your thinking, but that's entirely your concern, not mine.
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