Christianity

[Lacewing]

Here, as I fairly stated (without any offense or rudeness) is an outline of you *battle* you are engaged in. The idea you work with is rudimentary. It is a truly *reductive* idea and it leads you to a totally reductive position. You have devised a reductive formula that can be applied not only, say, in the domain of theology, but as the launching-point of a critique against any intellectual hierarchy. And you do this, as I poignantly suggest, from your 'grass-hut'.

You are such an arrogant fool.

The only thing you have demonstrated clearly in all of your ramblings is your desperate need to be right in thinking you 'know' (better than others), for which you are willing to distort and project and manipulate. You really believe it! Which is a fascinating display of the power and danger of belief when taken to certain extremes. Intertwined with ego, it is an intoxicated mess that misses everything else.

[henry quirk]

One great advantage of feminism ; it relieves macho men of their pressing need to be macho.

feminism has made many women crazy and many men eunuchs

much of what I say here...

...is applicable

just swap out racism and racist for sexism and sexist, color for sex, whitey for man, rejigger the sentences a little and it fits

somebody profits by creatin' a problem then sellin' the solution

[Immanuel Can]

One great advantage of feminism ; it relieves macho men of their pressing need to be macho.

feminism has made many women crazy and many men eunuchs

Feminism's told men that there's nothing special about them, that marriage doesn't matter, that monogamy and heterosexuality are oppressive, that children don't need fathers, that women provide for themselves (...or that government will do it anyway, so it's not on men to do that), that babies are preventable, and that they're not a treasure and a responsibility but a lump of tissue to which nobody can owe anything, that men are inherently evil just for being men, that a guy in a dress IS a woman, that a woman without breasts is totally a man just by imagining it, and that 50 Shades is great literature...

And now they're all complaining, "Where have all the good men gone?"

Does anyone even need to answer a question like that?

[Nick_A]

Here, as I fairly stated (without any offense or rudeness) is an outline of you *battle* you are engaged in. The idea you work with is rudimentary. It is a truly *reductive* idea and it leads you to a totally reductive position. You have devised a reductive formula that can be applied not only, say, in the domain of theology, but as the launching-point of a critique against any intellectual hierarchy. And you do this, as I poignantly suggest, from your 'grass-hut'.

You are such an arrogant fool.

The only thing you have demonstrated clearly in all of your ramblings is your desperate need to be right in thinking you 'know' (better than others), for which you are willing to distort and project and manipulate. You really believe it! Which is a fascinating display of the power and danger of belief when taken to certain extremes. Intertwined with ego, it is an intoxicated mess that misses everything else.

Question for you Lace: Is there a right way of thinking? We know there are a multitude of wrong ways producing wrong results and the opposite of our intent. They even produce wars. But is there theoretically a right way of thinking that can allow a person to leave "the Ship of Fools" described by Plato?

If there is no logical way to reason and all we live by is the duality of subjective associative thought or opinions, it is better to admit it, get some good scotch, and just go down with the ship. It makes no difference. Our future is turning in circles on the ship of fools. But what if there is a quality of reason that makes it possible to leave the ship of fools, to inwardly awaken, a quality of reason that could unite objective facts with universal values we fight so strongly to reject? Isn't a real man or woman one who has this aim for their life rather than the one who lives by subjective self justifying facts and subjective values? Are there such people who have transcended the world of opinions and experienced reality or freedom from Plato's Cave? Must our species as a whole just go down with the ship carrying the illusion that he is making progress? Apparently so. It is the way of mechanical animal life on earth: dust to dust.

[Nick_A]

One great advantage of feminism ; it relieves macho men of their pressing need to be macho.

feminism has made many women crazy and many men eunuchs

Feminism's told men that there's nothing special about them, that marriage doesn't matter, that monogamy and heterosexuality are oppressive, that children don't need fathers, that women provide for themselves (...or that government will do it anyway, so it's not on men to do that), that babies are preventable, and that they're not a treasure and a responsibility but a lump of tissue to which nobody can owe anything, that men are inherently evil just for being men, that a guy in a dress IS a woman, that a woman without breasts is totally a man just by imagining it, and that 50 Shades is great literature...

And now they're all complaining, "Where have all the good men gone?"

Does anyone even need to answer a question like that?

Feminism is right. They have adopted obligations men have abandoned to fear and PC. But who is a real Man? Some will say Joe Biden. I'm a traditionalist and stick with Paul on this rather than Joe Biden. A real man is one who can be all things to all people free from societal inhibitions rather than a mechanized creation of the Great Beast.

1 Corinthians

19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Obviously there are very few men in the world and apparently not enough to inspire those with the potential to be real men: those Plato called philosopher kings.

[henry quirk]

Nick,

“Middle class America is no less violent than any other people. They seem passive because they’re results oriented. They rise not out of blood frenzy but to solve the otherwise insoluble. Their methods of choice are good will, cooperation, forbearance, negotiation and finally, appeasement, roughly in that order. Only when these fail to end the abuse do they revert to blowback. And they do so irretrievably. Once the course is set and the outcome defined, doubt is put aside. The middle class is known, condemned actually, for carrying out violence with the efficiency of an industrial project where bloody destruction at any scale is not only in play, it’s a metric. Remorse is left for the next generation, they’ll have the leisure for it. We’d like to believe this is merely dark speculation. History says it isn’t.” – The Late Ol’ Remus

we're about done with appeasement

all those quiet men, the ones you say have abandoned their obligations, they're startin' to get noisy

[promethean75]

"Obviously there are very few men in the world and apparently not enough to inspire those with the potential to be real men"

The gravity of the irony of this situation is enough to make madmen out of those precious few who do have the intellect and experience to truly understand it. I would explain how all this is irreversibly linked to religion, capitalism, and consumerism... but you wouldn't get it.

[Alexis Jacobi]

You are such an arrogant fool.

You are of course entitled to your opinions.

And though that sort of statement is not an argument (!) it may be illustrative of something underlying (what I discern is) your battle. The fight must turn personal. Why?

I will offer my apology if you think I have you pegged incorrectly. But as I say (and I mean it) I am not very concerned about persons (the persons holding the ideas and opinions) and am for more interested in the determining ideas. And what I discern stands behind and directs some part of your ideas is ‘the specter of nihilism’.

And you are not alone. If my perception is right nihilism is the prevalent disease that infects our present (and I am not immune either — even in some ways especially).

So my larger battle is against nihilism, certainly not you.

The only thing you have demonstrated clearly in all of your ramblings is your desperate need to be right in thinking you 'know' (better than others), for which you are willing to distort and project and manipulate. You really believe it! Which is a fascinating display of the power and danger of belief when taken to certain extremes. Intertwined with ego, it is an intoxicated mess that misses everything else.

In a certain sense you are right, but for different reasons than what you suppose. You, as the exponent of certain ideas, want and need to be certain about your position. Similar to others who have participated in this thread and against certain ‘absolute truths’ that haunt you. The origin or root of nihilism is incapacity to accept certain fundamental truths which are part-and-parcel of Christianity in its largest sense. So in all you write it (seems to) boil down to a violent struggle against Truth of that order.

The notion of that order of Truth is intolerable! It must be defeated.

And in me the same battle goes on — as it does in all of us — yet I struggle against those who define and defend nihilistic positions as a matter of (spiritual) survival.

So while I do not have to be right about some smallish, minor details, it is true that I definitely need to be right (to be situated in what is right and true) in the largest and most important things.

Can you talk more about the ‘intoxicated mess’? What is that?

The ‘display of power’ thing also interests me. Because power is definitely manifesting itself all around us and seems to be doing all possible to put down truth. We live in days of the manifestation of intense authoritarianism.

And my own view is that the essence of it resides in a spirit of nihilism. It takes aim . . .

[uwot]

One great advantage of feminism ; it relieves macho men of their pressing need to be macho.

feminism has made many women crazy and many men eunuchs

Feminism's told men that there's nothing special about them...

Mr Can's primary objection to feminism is a claim he attributes to it that in order to be in the top half of specialness, men actually have to do some work. Just having balls doesn't immediately promote you above the bollockless.

...that marriage doesn't matter...

It is not the only opportunity available to women.

...that monogamy and heterosexuality are oppressive...

The people who insist they are the only options are oppressive.

...that children don't need fathers...

That no father is better than a bad father.

...that women provide for themselves...

That they might be able to provide some service so valued that they could at the same time raise children.

...(...or that government will do it anyway, so it's not on men to do that)...

A responsible society will provide at least the minimum for its citizens.

...that babies are preventable...

Do the maths. If the number of children you have is fewer than the occasions your wife consented to vaginal sex, then babies are preventable.

...and that they're not a treasure and a responsibility but a lump of tissue to which nobody can owe anything...

According to christianity, the huge majority of babies will not please god sufficiently, and god, who is responsible for their creation, will surrender responsibility for all but roughly 70 years of eternity to the devil, who will torture nearly every baby that was ever born, forever. And god allows it.

...that men are inherently evil just for being men...

If that bothers you, then so should the account of man's fall in Genesis. That "men are inherently evil just for being men" is precisely what the bible teaches. Were that not so, there is no need for Jesus. It's your favourite book, Mr Can; don't you understand it?

...that a guy in a dress IS a woman, that a woman without breasts is totally a man just by imagining it...

That you know what you are talking about. Everybody fools themselves some of the time.

...and that 50 Shades is great literature...

Mr Can, few people claim that 50 Shades is great literature. That there is a consensus among feminists that it is, even for someone who believes in miracles, would be hard to support.

And now they're all complaining, "Where have all the good men gone?"

Does anyone even need to answer a question like that?

I think the onus is on you to demonstrate that all, or even some feminists are asking that question.

[Nick_A]

Nick,

“Middle class America is no less violent than any other people. They seem passive because they’re results oriented. They rise not out of blood frenzy but to solve the otherwise insoluble. Their methods of choice are good will, cooperation, forbearance, negotiation and finally, appeasement, roughly in that order. Only when these fail to end the abuse do they revert to blowback. And they do so irretrievably. Once the course is set and the outcome defined, doubt is put aside. The middle class is known, condemned actually, for carrying out violence with the efficiency of an industrial project where bloody destruction at any scale is not only in play, it’s a metric. Remorse is left for the next generation, they’ll have the leisure for it. We’d like to believe this is merely dark speculation. History says it isn’t.” – The Late Ol’ Remus

we're about done with appeasement

all those quiet men, the ones you say have abandoned their obligations, they're startin' to get noisy

I agree with the process as described in Ecclesiastes 3. Unfortunately I believe America is in the process dying. The principles and values essential to sustain it are lost in favor of Secular PC.

3 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

When a culture begins to change it is just following universal laws or the cycles of nature: to be born, to live, to mature, and die. A culture is a living being and reacts to the same laws which is why Plato called it the Beast. It reacts to laws as do other beasts. Only the individual within the beast has the potential to consciously ACT as opposed to mechanically REACTING.

This is the great mistake many in philosophy make. They assume that a mechanical reaction is just a conscious act. But it isn't which is why so many are unaware of the great laws which explain why nature turns in circles to satisfy its lawful needs. The Christ brought consciousness as a human attribute into the world for those open to it which is why he had to be hated.

Of course America has to change and lose its value for freedom. It is nature's way and what the Great Beast must obey. But as I've learned, what is possible for the individual is not possible for the collective. I don't necessarily have to go down with the ship. I can become part of the way out and human conscious evolution rather than being lost in the battle of opinions..

[henry quirk]

Nick,

I believe America is in the process dying.

nah...there are too many Americas: this a a big piece of land...there's never been a seamless, cohesive American nation on it...instead there's somewhere between five and seven Americas and most aren't dyin'

what is dyin' is The United States of America...rather, that myth is dyin', cuz there's never been such an animal, not really

and what's dyin' is a particular iteration of The State (whether as unintended consequence or intended result is another topic entirely)

finally, what's dyin' is the illusion of Camelot and with it the idea we'll be saved

The principles and values essential to sustain it are lost in favor of Secular PC.

not everywhere, no

the cities are hives for it, are dyin' becuz of it: okay, let 'em go

in between the cities: things aren't nearly so bleak, so buck up, guy

I don't necessarily have to go down with the ship.

of course not...you never had to

just be aware, as I point out above: there's more than one ship, and most aren't founderin', and where the sailin' is successful it's cuz the captain and crew are bein' ignored or challenged

some of us reject the old boss and ain't lookin' for a new one

[Nick_A]

Nick,

I believe America is in the process dying.

nah...there are too many Americas: this a a big piece of land...there's never been a seamless, cohesive American nation on it...instead there's somewhere between five and seven Americas and most aren't dyin'

what is dyin' is The United States of America...rather, that myth is dyin', cuz there's never been such an animal, not really

and what's dyin' is a particular iteration of The State (whether as unintended consequence or intended result is another topic entirely)

finally, what's dyin' is the illusion of Camelot and with it the idea we'll be saved

The principles and values essential to sustain it are lost in favor of Secular PC.

not everywhere, no

the cities are hives for it, are dyin' becuz of it: okay, let 'em go

in between the cities: things aren't nearly so bleak, so buck up, guy

I don't necessarily have to go down with the ship.

of course not...you never had to

just be aware, as I point out above: there's more than one ship, and most aren't founderin', and where the sailin' is successful it's cuz the captain and crew are bein' ignored or challenged

some of us reject the old boss and ain't lookin' for a new one

I believe that freedom or the goal of American values requires the voluntary acceptance of values necessary to sustain it. For example the ideal of the nuclear family being sacrificed to PC values assures the inability for the family to deal with problems. Is equality under the law essential for freedom regardless of its place in America? I would say yes. The dominant government says no. Simone Weil wrote

The notion of obligations comes before that of rights, which is subordinate and relative to the former. A right is not effectual by itself, but only in relation to the obligation to which it corresponds, the effective exercise of a right springing not from the individual who possesses it, but from other men who consider themselves as being under a certain obligation towards him. Recognition of an obligation makes it effectual. An obligation which goes unrecognized by anybody loses none of the full force of its existence. A right which goes unrecognized by anybody is not worth very much.

It makes nonsense to say that men have, on the one hand, rights, and on the other hand, obligations. Such words only express differences in point of view. The actual relationship between the two is as between object and subject. A man, considered in isolation, only has duties, amongst which are certain duties towards himself. Other men, seen from his point of view, only have rights. He, in his turn, has rights, when seen from the point of view of other men, who recognize that they have obligations towards him. A man left alone in the universe would have no rights whatever, but he would have obligations.

In a sentiment that calls to mind Einstein’s beautiful letter to the Queen of Belgium, in which he contemplated the existence of “something eternal that lies beyond the hand of fate and of all human delusions,” Weil adds:

The notion of rights, being of an objective order, is inseparable from the notions of existence and reality. [The obligation] always involves to a certain extent the taking into account of actual given states and particular situations. Rights are always found to be related to certain conditions. Obligations alone remain independent of conditions. They belong to a realm situated above all conditions, because it is situated above this world.

The voluntary acceptance of obligations requires a quality of conscience that America is quickly losing in the battle over rights. The victory in the battle for rights assures assures the loss of freedom and the adoption of tyranny through the loss of conscience.

This is a mechanical process governed by mechanical laws. The leopard cannot change its spots yet communism depends on accepting this myth of change through revolution. Change requires grace with the government must reject and support a sinking ship of fools since they are part of it.

"Humanism was not wrong in thinking that truth, beauty, liberty, and equality are of infinite value, but in thinking that man can get them for himself without grace." Simone Weil

It is only possible through Christian principles inviting grace and freedom that could make the principles and goals of America possible. But who knows what that is anymore and why it has been reduced to impotent secular Christendom.

[promethean75]

Christianity is dying because the world is growing up, and neither has that nonsense ever been a foundation for anything other than passifying people, making them a nervous, emotional wreck, and putting money into the pockets of parasites like that Osteen fuck.

Any normative behavior, culture, custom and practice that human beings have ever participated in, was already made possible and built in the human ethos through evolutionary means. Christianity has never done anything but proselytize - take possession of - everything good man already was or had the potential to be.... then claimed that man needed it to become or remain what it already was. It is the greatest hustle in the history of the erf.

There is a reason why these two parasites - Christianity and capitalism - have such a rich history together. They're like a dynamic duo of deception (henceforth the 'DDD').

...

What a crude intellect is good for.-- The Christian church is an encyclopaedia of prehistoric cults and conceptions of the most diverse origin, and that is why it is so capable of proselytizing: it always could, and it can still go wherever it pleases, and it always found, and always finds something similar to itself to which it can adapt itself and gradually impose upon it a Christian meaning. - Friedrich 'The Moustache' Nietzsche

[henry quirk]

ya know, Nick, I kinda got the feelin' you aren't actually readin' and respondin' to my posts

[promethean75]

Little tip for all the scripture quoters. When you use scripture to bolster your argument, your reasoning is ultimately circular and begging the question.

You say the Bible is an authority, then quote scripture. You say the scripture is an authority because it's in the Bible.

I didn't really have to point this out, did I?

If you are trying to prove that the Bible has any more significance than as a collection of stories, fables and myths - only a few of which have any historical accuracy, anyway - you need something external to the Bible's content to do so.