Why is slavery wrong?

[henry quirk]

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clarifyin' edit: I know why slavery is wrong (and it most certainly is wrong)...this thread is about why you think or know slavery is wrong (or why slavery is a-ok by you)...it started as goof as against another, amoralist, member who dances hard and fast to avoid declarn' slavery wrong (cuz she knows that if slavery is not wrong, then she has no justification to oppose it beyond I don't wanna be a slave!)...it's become a rather picayune example of what I already knew: this place overflows with amoralists who deny a moral reality while, at the same time, they just can't bring themselves to say slavery? well there's no reason why men shouldn't treat other men as property!

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Why is anything 'wrong'? Someone decided it was and the idea gradually caught on. It went out of fashion, just as there are things people find acceptable today that will horrify people in the future.

[henry quirk]

Why is anything 'wrong'? Someone decided it was and the idea gradually caught on. *It went out of fashion, just as there are things people find acceptable today that will horrify people in the future.

*No, it did not.

Is this your answer? Slavery isn't wrong (or right): it's just currently out of fashion?

[Dontaskme]

It's only wrong if it's not consensual.

Do we breed children just to own and molest them for our own personal pleasure as if they were our own little pet plaything...or do we allow them to be the owner of their own unique being without ever interfering or expecting or wanting anything back in return from them.

How we treat others is how we've been treated and then chosen to either repeat the actions, or change the actions. Learnt behavior starts from the moment we are born. Ultimately, we either consent to slavery, or we don't. There are always two sides to the tight-rope that is the walk of life where the pulling and pushing of opposites end up being the cause of all tension.


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[Walker]

Why is anything 'wrong'? Someone decided it was and the idea gradually caught on. *It went out of fashion, just as there are things people find acceptable today that will horrify people in the future.

*No, it did not.

Is this your answer? Slavery isn't wrong (or right): it's just currently out of fashion?

While walking past a news report about worldwide slavery the other night I saw images of many men in literal cages sitting around waiting for something, but I didn’t stick around to see or hear the details. The gist I gathered in the time it took to walk by is that apparently there’s lots of involuntary slavery going on around the world.

3 distinctions
There’s Master
There’s slave
There’s Voluntary Servitude (servituders?)
(everyone who is not a slave)


“You gotta serve somebody.”* – Bob Dylan
“Service makes pure.” – Joni Mitchell.

* Evidence that's common knowledge.

[henry quirk]

DAM.

Do we breed children just to own and molest them for our own personal pleasure as if they were our own little pet plaything...or do we allow them to be the owner of their own unique being without ever interfering or expecting or wanting anything back in return from them.

well, whacky as it may sound: I don't own or molest my kid, and, I also interfere in his less-sensible plans and have definite expectations of him

parenting is guidance, education, and love...and protection

when he was six: he wanted to climb on the roof and jump off with his homemade parachute

I put the kibosh on that quick: dead or crippled ain't how I want him

It's only wrong if it's not consensual.

who, sanely, consents to bein' a slave?

[Terrapin Station]

Why is anything 'wrong'? Someone decided it was and the idea gradually caught on. *It went out of fashion, just as there are things people find acceptable today that will horrify people in the future.

*No, it did not.

Is this your answer? Slavery isn't wrong (or right): it's just currently out of fashion?

What it is for something to be ethically wrong or right is for someone to disapprove or approve of it, for them to have a preference against or for it. Re what winds up instantiated socially, which is what vegetariantaxidermy was addressing, does indeed wind up being a "fashion" of sorts.

[henry quirk]

Why is anything 'wrong'? Someone decided it was and the idea gradually caught on. *It went out of fashion, just as there are things people find acceptable today that will horrify people in the future.

*No, it did not.

Is this your answer? Slavery isn't wrong (or right): it's just currently out of fashion?

What it is for something to be ethically wrong or right is for someone to disapprove or approve of it, for them to have a preference against or for it. Re what winds up instantiated socially, which is what vegetariantaxidermy was addressing, does indeed wind up being a "fashion" of sorts.

I think you give veg too much credit

[Dontaskme]

DAM.

Do we breed children just to own and molest them for our own personal pleasure as if they were our own little pet plaything...or do we allow them to be the owner of their own unique being without ever interfering or expecting or wanting anything back in return from them.

well, whacky as it may sound: I don't own or molest my kid, and, I also interfere in his less-sensible plans and have definite expectations of him

parenting is guidance, education, and love...and protection

when he was six: he wanted to climb on the roof and jump off with his homemade parachute

I put the kibosh on that quick: dead or crippled ain't how I want him

Of course I agree, we as parents are responsible to keep child out of harms way. But then allow the child to go it's own way according to how it wants to express itself as a unique individual that will be it's own business that no one else should interfere with.

______________

It's only wrong if it's not consensual.

who, sanely, consents to bein' a slave?

Same could be said about slavery, who would consent to slavery? You talk about slavery as if it's an actual experience.

[Immanuel Can]

Well, we'd better narrow the scope, or you're going to get a whole lot of irrelevant input, I suspect.

"Service" isn't slavery, of course, since you can serve somebody voluntarily, and many do. I don't think we can object to anybody freely choosing to do somebody a service or work for a cause they believe in, paid or not.

I also don't think you mean what people call "wage slavery," where you're paid, and perhaps even pretty well, but you're perhaps annoyed that it's not enough. I assume you wouldn't include that, either.

But unless I miss my understanding, you're talking about involuntary, chattel-type slavery...the sort of thing once practiced in the Caribbean, or by the Southern Democrats in the US, and still practiced now by Mexican cartels, or in parts of Africa and Asia, and in the Islamic world. Are you also including the many types of informal slavery that do not involve the approval of a particular social ethos, but may instead operate as a kind of underground...like sex slavery or child slavery? Kidnapping with forced, essentially unpaid labour...that kind of thing?

Have I got that right?

Or did you want the scope much broader? Did you just want to see what people would "throw out there"? Let me not derail the train with anything irrelevant here...

[henry quirk]

You talk about slavery as if it's an actual experience.

it is

right now, as I type, tens of thousands of men, women, and children are forced to labor for, to service, others

human trafficking is an industry: you won't find it on the nasdaq (any more than you'll find the billion-dollar illicit drug industry on the index), but a big chunk of the global economy is slave trade

anyway: no, no sane person wants to be a slave, to be owned, to be property

[henry quirk]

you're talking about involuntary, chattel-type slavery

bingo

[Immanuel Can]

you're talking about involuntary, chattel-type slavery

bingo

Got it.

So the objection, "It's consensual" is irrelevant, because you're not considering that case. And so is the objection, "Service is slavery," because service isn't included either.

The question comes down to, "Why is involuntary, chattel-type slavery wrong (for the enslaver to do)?"

And I wonder what everybody will say to that...

[Dontaskme]

You talk about slavery as if it's an actual experience.

it is

right now, as I type, tens of thousands of men, women, and children are forced to labor for, to service, others

human trafficking is an industry: you won't find it on the nasdaq (any more than you'll find the billion-dollar illicit drug industry on the index), but a big chunk of the global economy is slave trade

anyway: no, no sane person wants to be a slave, to be owned, to be property

But then aren’t those who are forced into slavery consenting to being forced into slavery?

[Immanuel Can]

...aren’t those who are forced into slavery consenting to being forced into slavery?

I can't even figure out how this question is supposed to make sense, DAM.

"Being forced" and "consenting" are opposite propositions.