An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

[Age]

I agree that we choose when there are options available. But how could we choose when the past defines the future? The answer to this question is important since if you believe in determinism then there is only one option available at any given time.

Do you believe in determinism "bahman"?

Sure, yes when it comes to the way that matter behaves.

So, we AGREE here.

But I think that the marginal state could exist when there are options in the system.

To you, are there options "in the system" or not?

If either yes or no, then what is 'the system', to you?

[bahman]

Yes we KNOW that this is what you BELIEVE is true.

And, there could not possibly be ANY thing else other than what you ALREADY BELIEVE is true, correct?

When, and IF, you ever STOP BELIEVING this, then we can discuss things further, but until then enjoy YOUR BELIEF here.

So you think, under determinism, you could have options? If yes then how? Could you give an example?

1. I have already addressed this "bahman".

2. There is NOT just determinism. BOTH 'the ability to choose' AND 'determinism' exists. As I explained earlier.

3. 'Options' can be different from 'choices', in that 'options' are provided to you whereas you decide 'choices'.

An example of an 'option' is when you are in the water at a beach with waves. There exists the option of whether to go over the wave or to go under the wave. So, you do have options. Another example of option is if you have more than one piece of clothing, then there is an option, and if you have more than one particular type of food before you, then there exists another option.

You need to explain how options are feasible under determinism when only one option is possible. There is no solution to this problem unless you accept the existence of the marginal state.

[bahman]

Do you believe in determinism "bahman"?

Sure, yes when it comes to the way that matter behaves.

So, we AGREE here.

But I think that the marginal state could exist when there are options in the system.

To you, are there options "in the system" or not?

Not always. The system behaves deterministically until it reaches a marginal state.

If either yes or no, then what is 'the system', to you?

You don't have an option (except moving your arms for example) when you fall. So your center of mass fall and behaves deterministically.

[Age]

So you think, under determinism, you could have options? If yes then how? Could you give an example?

1. I have already addressed this "bahman".

2. There is NOT just determinism. BOTH 'the ability to choose' AND 'determinism' exists. As I explained earlier.

3. 'Options' can be different from 'choices', in that 'options' are provided to you whereas you decide 'choices'.

An example of an 'option' is when you are in the water at a beach with waves. There exists the option of whether to go over the wave or to go under the wave. So, you do have options. Another example of option is if you have more than one piece of clothing, then there is an option, and if you have more than one particular type of food before you, then there exists another option.

You need to explain how options are feasible under determinism when only one option is possible.

But I do NOT have to do any such thing, and this is because I am NOT saying that only determinism exists.

Also, thousands, millions, or even trillions of 'options' can be and ARE available/feasible under determinism. 'Options' are what 'you', human beings, have to you to choose from. However, under a solely deterministic version of the Universe only one of those MANY options could be and will be CHOSEN.

But considering the Fact that the Universe is NOT solely deterministic the last sentence is moot.

There is no solution to this problem unless you accept the existence of the marginal state.

LOL There is NO 'problem', from my perspective. ALSO, you have NOT even presented ANY 'problem' here YET either.

Anyway, your, so-called, "marginal state" where matter laughably can NOT move any longer is an IMPOSSIBLE state. So, WHY you would 'try to' go down this line of thinking is bewildering, well to me anyway.

[Age]

Sure, yes when it comes to the way that matter behaves.

So, we AGREE here.

But I think that the marginal state could exist when there are options in the system.

To you, are there options "in the system" or not?

Not always. The system behaves deterministically until it reaches a marginal state.

SO, the answer is YES.

If either yes or no, then what is 'the system', to you?

You don't have an option (except moving your arms for example) when you fall. So your center of mass fall and behaves deterministically.

Is this meant to be answering the question, 'What is 'the system'?'

If yes, then HOW, EXACTLY?


Now, what we have is "bahman" states that 'options' do ACTUALLY EXIST, in "some system" that we are YET to find out and discover what that "system" ACTUALLY IS or refers to, EXACTLY.

[bahman]

1. I have already addressed this "bahman".

2. There is NOT just determinism. BOTH 'the ability to choose' AND 'determinism' exists. As I explained earlier.

3. 'Options' can be different from 'choices', in that 'options' are provided to you whereas you decide 'choices'.

An example of an 'option' is when you are in the water at a beach with waves. There exists the option of whether to go over the wave or to go under the wave. So, you do have options. Another example of option is if you have more than one piece of clothing, then there is an option, and if you have more than one particular type of food before you, then there exists another option.

You need to explain how options are feasible under determinism when only one option is possible.

But I do NOT have to do any such thing, and this is because I am NOT saying that only determinism exists.

Also, thousands, millions, or even trillions of 'options' can be and ARE available/feasible under determinism. 'Options' are what 'you', human beings, have to you to choose from. However, under a solely deterministic version of the Universe only one of those MANY options could be and will be CHOSEN.

But considering the Fact that the Universe is NOT solely deterministic the last sentence is moot.

There is no solution to this problem unless you accept the existence of the marginal state.

LOL There is NO 'problem', from my perspective. ALSO, you have NOT even presented ANY 'problem' here YET either.

Anyway, your, so-called, "marginal state" where matter laughably can NOT move any longer is an IMPOSSIBLE state. So, WHY you would 'try to' go down this line of thinking is bewildering, well to me anyway.

Does matter always behave deterministically? If yes, then you have a problem with your hand. If no, then how?

[bahman]

So, we AGREE here.



To you, are there options "in the system" or not?

Not always. The system behaves deterministically until it reaches a marginal state.

SO, the answer is YES.

If either yes or no, then what is 'the system', to you?

You don't have an option (except moving your arms for example) when you fall. So your center of mass fall and behaves deterministically.

Is this meant to be answering the question, 'What is 'the system'?'

If yes, then HOW, EXACTLY?


Now, what we have is "bahman" states that 'options' do ACTUALLY EXIST, in "some system" that we are YET to find out and discover what that "system" ACTUALLY IS or refers to, EXACTLY.

Do you have any option when you are falling down from a building (except moving your arms for example)?

[Belinda]

Age wrote:

What else is there to determinism, to you?

(I've already addressed your other points, Age. )

If you say so.

Besides simple causal chains in a time sequence from past events, there are also ongoing causes such as climate, the human shapers of public opinion such as the BBC or Murdoch newspapers, the force of gravity, metabolism of all living beings, and so forth.

ALL of which are just simple causal chains as well, correct?

Yes, but in a causal chain causes finish before their effects happen e.g.in billiard ball events. Many causes persist long after their effects happen, and these causes go on to be partial causes of other effects. E.g. personality; an individual may be a sunny personality who causes others to smile and feel happy time after time. Or an individual may suffer a life -changing injury which is a continuing cause of many events in his life. Some causes such as physical forces are so much part of the pattern of nature that for all we know these forces never end and are partial causes of effect after effect to the end of time.

[Age]

You need to explain how options are feasible under determinism when only one option is possible.

But I do NOT have to do any such thing, and this is because I am NOT saying that only determinism exists.

Also, thousands, millions, or even trillions of 'options' can be and ARE available/feasible under determinism. 'Options' are what 'you', human beings, have to you to choose from. However, under a solely deterministic version of the Universe only one of those MANY options could be and will be CHOSEN.

But considering the Fact that the Universe is NOT solely deterministic the last sentence is moot.

There is no solution to this problem unless you accept the existence of the marginal state.

LOL There is NO 'problem', from my perspective. ALSO, you have NOT even presented ANY 'problem' here YET either.

Anyway, your, so-called, "marginal state" where matter laughably can NOT move any longer is an IMPOSSIBLE state. So, WHY you would 'try to' go down this line of thinking is bewildering, well to me anyway.

Does matter always behave deterministically?

Yes.

If yes, then you have a problem with your hand.

Do I REALLY?

If yes, then what EXACTLY is that supposed 'problem', to you?

If no, then how?

Hiw could it be a no, you just informed us that I did have, correct?

[Age]

Not always. The system behaves deterministically until it reaches a marginal state.

SO, the answer is YES.

You don't have an option (except moving your arms for example) when you fall. So your center of mass fall and behaves deterministically.

Is this meant to be answering the question, 'What is 'the system'?'

If yes, then HOW, EXACTLY?


Now, what we have is "bahman" states that 'options' do ACTUALLY EXIST, in "some system" that we are YET to find out and discover what that "system" ACTUALLY IS or refers to, EXACTLY.

Do you have any option when you are falling down from a building (except moving your arms for example)?

There are LOTS of options. BUT, even if there were NONE what is the ACTUAL point that you want to get to here eventually?

[Age]

Age wrote:



(I've already addressed your other points, Age. )

If you say so.

Besides simple causal chains in a time sequence from past events, there are also ongoing causes such as climate, the human shapers of public opinion such as the BBC or Murdoch newspapers, the force of gravity, metabolism of all living beings, and so forth.

ALL of which are just simple causal chains as well, correct?

Yes, but in a causal chain causes finish before their effects happen e.g.in billiard ball events. Many causes persist long after their effects happen, and these causes go on to be partial causes of other effects. E.g. personality; an individual may be a sunny personality who causes others to smile and feel happy time after time. Or an individual may suffer a life -changing injury which is a continuing cause of many events in his life. Some causes such as physical forces are so much part of the pattern of nature that for all we know these forces never end and are partial causes of effect after effect to the end of time.

How could there be ANY thing that is NOT of the pattern of nature?

[Belinda]

If you say so.


ALL of which are just simple causal chains as well, correct?

Yes, but in a causal chain causes finish before their effects happen e.g.in billiard ball events. Many causes persist long after their effects happen, and these causes go on to be partial causes of other effects. E.g. personality; an individual may be a sunny personality who causes others to smile and feel happy time after time. Or an individual may suffer a life -changing injury which is a continuing cause of many events in his life. Some causes such as physical forces are so much part of the pattern of nature that for all we know these forces never end and are partial causes of effect after effect to the end of time.

How could there be ANY thing that is NOT of the pattern of nature?

I can't know what you refer to by "of that pattern of nature". However if you mean what I'd mean by "of that pattern of nature" then my answer there is nothing, except nature itself, that is not of that nature.

[bahman]

But I do NOT have to do any such thing, and this is because I am NOT saying that only determinism exists.

Also, thousands, millions, or even trillions of 'options' can be and ARE available/feasible under determinism. 'Options' are what 'you', human beings, have to you to choose from. However, under a solely deterministic version of the Universe only one of those MANY options could be and will be CHOSEN.

But considering the Fact that the Universe is NOT solely deterministic the last sentence is moot.



LOL There is NO 'problem', from my perspective. ALSO, you have NOT even presented ANY 'problem' here YET either.

Anyway, your, so-called, "marginal state" where matter laughably can NOT move any longer is an IMPOSSIBLE state. So, WHY you would 'try to' go down this line of thinking is bewildering, well to me anyway.

Does matter always behave deterministically?

Yes.

If yes, then you have a problem with your hand.

Do I REALLY?

If yes, then what EXACTLY is that supposed 'problem', to you?

I have repeated this a few times. If the system is deterministic the future is determined by the past which means that you don't have options.

If no, then how?

Hiw could it be a no, you just informed us that I did have, correct?

Ok.

[bahman]

SO, the answer is YES.


Is this meant to be answering the question, 'What is 'the system'?'

If yes, then HOW, EXACTLY?


Now, what we have is "bahman" states that 'options' do ACTUALLY EXIST, in "some system" that we are YET to find out and discover what that "system" ACTUALLY IS or refers to, EXACTLY.

Do you have any option when you are falling down from a building (except moving your arms for example)?

There are LOTS of options. BUT, even if there were NONE what is the ACTUAL point that you want to get to here eventually?

I mean do you have the option not to fall.

[Age]

Yes, but in a causal chain causes finish before their effects happen e.g.in billiard ball events. Many causes persist long after their effects happen, and these causes go on to be partial causes of other effects. E.g. personality; an individual may be a sunny personality who causes others to smile and feel happy time after time. Or an individual may suffer a life -changing injury which is a continuing cause of many events in his life. Some causes such as physical forces are so much part of the pattern of nature that for all we know these forces never end and are partial causes of effect after effect to the end of time.

How could there be ANY thing that is NOT of the pattern of nature?

I can't know what you refer to by "of that pattern of nature".

I just repeated what you said, which, by the way, was "of the pattern of nature".

However if you mean what I'd mean by "of that pattern of nature" then my answer there is nothing, except nature itself, that is not of that nature.

To me there is NOTHING but Nature, Itself. In other words, ALL-THAT-EXISTS is NATURAL and thus a part of Nature.