Christianity

[Alexis Jacobi]

Are you susceptible to 'hysteria' now?
If yes, then WHY?
But, if no, then are you SURE?
In fact could you be subscribing and/or following 'hysteria' right now?

My impression of your annoying & obsessive manner of writing is that you have embodied a caricature of your own caricature. I don’t believe that you take yourself seriously. And for this reason I find that I can’t, either.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Everyone comes to these forums for their own purposes, certainly. And everyone will, or perhaps won’t, define what those purposes are. In my case I have a number of purposes. Presently however, I am trying to better understand what ‘conversion’ is. I could say ‘religious conversion’ but that would seem to exclude other sorts of conversion which are just as real, though resulting in different outcomes.

I am not certain what is meant by *salvation* and I am uncertain even that those who speak of it are certain of what they mean. On one hand it has been taken to mean literally a salvation from the conditions of the material world, the world of mutability. One can refer to the Eastern notions of ‘liberation from the rounds of births and deaths’ in order to shine light on the Christian concept. They are not unrelated. In order to understand, even superficially the Christian religion, one will have to know something about the Eastern mystery schools.

I do not think one can avoid considering, at least in some respect, the enthusiastic Christian religion as having a psychic or psychological relationshop to the cult of Dionysius. When Dionysius came all doors were broken open. The force and power of this god’s entrance overcame all obstacles. Whatever it was, it was irresistible.

Yet we are inclined — certainly here in the written form on this philosophy forum — to these Apollonian methods. So it seems to me that we have to face some not very pleasant facts about *the human world*. What moves people, what moves masses of people, is not idea but emotion and sentiment. You can lecture people until you are blue in the face (Apollonian endeavor) and get little result. But when a Dionysian preacher, or some demagogue, brings forth a social incantation thousands and millions are moved to action.

If you can bear to read the following — it is very interesting at the least — I think it sheds some light on the question of ‘conversion’. It is from a book by AD Nock by that name: Conversion: The Old and the New in Religion from Alexander the Great to Augustine of Hippo (1933). Nock here opens discussing the conversion of Lucius which took place in the eleventh book of The Golden Ass (or The Metamorphosis) by Apuleius (written in the 2nd century).

The hero of The Metamorphosis was transformed, through his dabbling in magic (in combo with sexual improprieties) into a donkey . . . And he is saved, as it were, by the goddess Isis.

Our survey of paganism has given us little reason to
expect that the adhesion of any individual to a cult
would involve any marked spiritual reorientation, any
recoil from his moral and religious past, any idea
of starting a new life. For adhesion to acquire the
emotional values of conversion special personal circum-
stances were necessary, and we find such in the story
told in the eleventh book of the Metamorphoses of
Apuleius.

This strange and beautiful work, written
under Marcus Aurelius, is based upon a Greek romance
telling how a young man was led by an amour into
careless dabbling in magic and was as a result changed
into the shape ofan ass. In the original story he regained
his shape thanks to the antidote (eating rose-leaves),
and the ending is burlesque. Apuleius gave to it a different
conclusion, in which there is more than a touch of autobiography.

We must follow it closely, for it is the high-water mark of the piety
which grew out of the mystery religions.

The hero, while still in the shape of an ass, awaking
in the night, invokes the aid of Isis, 'being sure that the
highest goddess is strong in the majesty that is all her
own, and that human affairs are wholly guided by her
providence, and that not only animals tame and wild
but also inanimate things are given life by the divine
will of her light and deity'. She appears to him in a
dream, tells him of herself, the object of the worship
paid by all the world to various divine names, and in which there is
speaks of her festival of the morrow and says:

'At my direction a priest on the very outskirts of the procession
will bear in his right hand a wreath of roses attached
to a sistrum (rattle). So without hesitation part the
crowd and haste to join the procession, relying on my
favour. Come close to the priest and gently, as though
you were kissing his hand, reach for the rose and rid
yourself of the skin of that animal that I have so long
hated. Do not fear any of my instructions as difficult,
for at this same moment at which I come to you I am
there also present and am enjoining on my priest in his
sleep what he must do. At my bidding the closely
packed throngs will make way for you....You will
remember absolutely and always keep stored in your
heart of hearts one thing,that the remaining course of
your life till you draw the last breath is made over to
me. It is right that you should owe all the existence
which is to be yours to her thanks to whom you have
returned to humanity. But your life will be happy,
nay glorious, under my protection, and when you have
accomplished your span and descended to the under-
world there also, even in the lower hemisphere, you
will as a dweller in the Elysian fields constantly adore
me whom you now see,shining in the darkness of
Acheron,reigning in the recesses of Styx, and you will
find me gracious toward you. And if by acts of diligent
obedience,faithful devotion, and steadfast self-disci-
pline you deserve well of my godhead,you shall know
that I and I alone have the power to prolong your life
beyond the bounds appointed by your fate.'

He awakened straightway and pondered over all the
injunctions which he had received. The sun rose and
all nature seemed to rejoice. The procession took its
course and the priest in question appeared. Lucius did
not like to rush forward, but crept in, the people making
way. The priest, seeing all happen in accordance with
the orders which he had received from Isis, stopped
suddenly, put forth his right hand, and held the wreath
before the lips of Lucius, and he was a man again. The
throngs marvelled, the faithful paid homage to the
miracle. They raised their hands to heaven and with
loud harmonious voices bore witness to this manifest
goodness of the goddess. We know their cry, Great is
Isis and we know their mood; it is as at Lourdes when
the word goes forth that there is a cure.

Lucius, restored to human shape, was speechless
with depth of feeling. 'The priest, knowing somehow
by divine admonition all my misfortunes from the
beginning, although himself also profoundly stirred by
this striking miracle, signed to the people to give me
a linen garment to cover myself. ...When this was
done, with smiling and in truth unearthly face, in
wonder at the sight ofme, he spoke thus:

“After bearing many and various labours, after being driven about by
great tempests of Fortune and mighty storms you have
at last come,Lucius, to the harbour of calm and the
altar of mercy. Neither your birth nor your rank, nor
the learning which adorns you availed you at all,but
in the slippery time of youthful vigour you sank to the
pleasures of a slave and obtained a sorry reward for your
ill-starred inquisitiveness. But,however it was, the
blindness of Fortune,while torturing you with the
worst of perils, has with a malice which proved short-
sighted brought you to this pious happiness. Let her
go now and rage with her worst frenzy and seek some
other object for her cruelty: for hostile chance has no
power against those whose lives have been claimed as
hers by the majesty of our goddess. What profit did
spiteful Fortune derive from robbers or wild beasts or
slavery or the hardest of journeys, bringing you back
to where you started, or the daily fear of death? Now
you have been taken under the protection of Fortune,
yes,and a Fortune that sees, that by the splendour of
her radiance gives light even to the other gods. Put on
now a more cheerful countenance to match your white
raiment, join with glad steps the procession of the
goddess who is your deliverer. Let the irreligious see, let
them see and learn how wrong they are. Lo, Lucius freed
from his old woes by the providence of great Isis
triumphs joyously over his own fortune. Yet that you
may be safer and more protected, enrol in this holy
soldiering, to which you were but now bidden to pledge
yourself,and even now dedicate yourself to the follow-
ing of our religion and take on yourself the voluntary
yoke of service. For when you have begun to serve the
goddess, then you will the more perceive the fruit of the
liberty which is yours.''

[Janoah]

can God turn into a man, or into a mouse?

??? Mouse? What passage of Torah did you have in mind?

I didn't mean the Torah passage.
I meant your logic that "God can do everything."

[Janoah]

For who spoke to Abraham (Genesis 18) and Gideon (Judges 6)?

Man can hear the voice of God only in his own conscience.

God does not despise the material world.

Yes.
The deification of the material is contrary to conscience.

[Janoah]

Not to become subject wholly to the spirit of the Orient.

What interests me here is not politics (who become subject to whom), but the truth of the worldview, regardless of its authorship.

[Belinda]

Everyone comes to these forums for their own purposes, certainly. And everyone will, or perhaps won’t, define what those purposes are. In my case I have a number of purposes. Presently however, I am trying to better understand what ‘conversion’ is. I could say ‘religious conversion’ but that would seem to exclude other sorts of conversion which are just as real, though resulting in different outcomes.

I am not certain what is meant by *salvation* and I am uncertain even that those who speak of it are certain of what they mean. On one hand it has been taken to mean literally a salvation from the conditions of the material world, the world of mutability. One can refer to the Eastern notions of ‘liberation from the rounds of births and deaths’ in order to shine light on the Christian concept. They are not unrelated. In order to understand, even superficially the Christian religion, one will have to know something about the Eastern mystery schools.

I do not think one can avoid considering, at least in some respect, the enthusiastic Christian religion as having a psychic or psychological relationshop to the cult of Dionysius. When Dionysius came all doors were broken open. The force and power of this god’s entrance overcame all obstacles. Whatever it was, it was irresistible.

Yet we are inclined — certainly here in the written form on this philosophy forum — to these Apollonian methods. So it seems to me that we have to face some not very pleasant facts about *the human world*. What moves people, what moves masses of people, is not idea but emotion and sentiment. You can lecture people until you are blue in the face (Apollonian endeavor) and get little result. But when a Dionysian preacher, or some demagogue, brings forth a social incantation thousands and millions are moved to action.

If you can bear to read the following — it is very interesting at the least — I think it sheds some light on the question of ‘conversion’. It is from a book by AD Nock by that name: Conversion: The Old and the New in Religion from Alexander the Great to Augustine of Hippo (1933). Nock here opens discussing the conversion of Lucius which took place in the eleventh book of The Golden Ass (or The Metamorphosis) by Apuleius (written in the 2nd century).

The hero of The Metamorphosis was transformed, through his dabbling in magic (in combo with sexual improprieties) into a donkey . . . And he is saved, as it were, by the goddess Isis.

Our survey of paganism has given us little reason to
expect that the adhesion of any individual to a cult
would involve any marked spiritual reorientation, any
recoil from his moral and religious past, any idea
of starting a new life. For adhesion to acquire the
emotional values of conversion special personal circum-
stances were necessary, and we find such in the story
told in the eleventh book of the Metamorphoses of
Apuleius.

This strange and beautiful work, written
under Marcus Aurelius, is based upon a Greek romance
telling how a young man was led by an amour into
careless dabbling in magic and was as a result changed
into the shape ofan ass. In the original story he regained
his shape thanks to the antidote (eating rose-leaves),
and the ending is burlesque. Apuleius gave to it a different
conclusion, in which there is more than a touch of autobiography.

We must follow it closely, for it is the high-water mark of the piety
which grew out of the mystery religions.

The hero, while still in the shape of an ass, awaking
in the night, invokes the aid of Isis, 'being sure that the
highest goddess is strong in the majesty that is all her
own, and that human affairs are wholly guided by her
providence, and that not only animals tame and wild
but also inanimate things are given life by the divine
will of her light and deity'. She appears to him in a
dream, tells him of herself, the object of the worship
paid by all the world to various divine names, and in which there is
speaks of her festival of the morrow and says:

'At my direction a priest on the very outskirts of the procession
will bear in his right hand a wreath of roses attached
to a sistrum (rattle). So without hesitation part the
crowd and haste to join the procession, relying on my
favour. Come close to the priest and gently, as though
you were kissing his hand, reach for the rose and rid
yourself of the skin of that animal that I have so long
hated. Do not fear any of my instructions as difficult,
for at this same moment at which I come to you I am
there also present and am enjoining on my priest in his
sleep what he must do. At my bidding the closely
packed throngs will make way for you....You will
remember absolutely and always keep stored in your
heart of hearts one thing,that the remaining course of
your life till you draw the last breath is made over to
me. It is right that you should owe all the existence
which is to be yours to her thanks to whom you have
returned to humanity. But your life will be happy,
nay glorious, under my protection, and when you have
accomplished your span and descended to the under-
world there also, even in the lower hemisphere, you
will as a dweller in the Elysian fields constantly adore
me whom you now see,shining in the darkness of
Acheron,reigning in the recesses of Styx, and you will
find me gracious toward you. And if by acts of diligent
obedience,faithful devotion, and steadfast self-disci-
pline you deserve well of my godhead,you shall know
that I and I alone have the power to prolong your life
beyond the bounds appointed by your fate.'

He awakened straightway and pondered over all the
injunctions which he had received. The sun rose and
all nature seemed to rejoice. The procession took its
course and the priest in question appeared. Lucius did
not like to rush forward, but crept in, the people making
way. The priest, seeing all happen in accordance with
the orders which he had received from Isis, stopped
suddenly, put forth his right hand, and held the wreath
before the lips of Lucius, and he was a man again. The
throngs marvelled, the faithful paid homage to the
miracle. They raised their hands to heaven and with
loud harmonious voices bore witness to this manifest
goodness of the goddess. We know their cry, Great is
Isis and we know their mood; it is as at Lourdes when
the word goes forth that there is a cure.

Lucius, restored to human shape, was speechless
with depth of feeling. 'The priest, knowing somehow
by divine admonition all my misfortunes from the
beginning, although himself also profoundly stirred by
this striking miracle, signed to the people to give me
a linen garment to cover myself. ...When this was
done, with smiling and in truth unearthly face, in
wonder at the sight ofme, he spoke thus:

“After bearing many and various labours, after being driven about by
great tempests of Fortune and mighty storms you have
at last come,Lucius, to the harbour of calm and the
altar of mercy. Neither your birth nor your rank, nor
the learning which adorns you availed you at all,but
in the slippery time of youthful vigour you sank to the
pleasures of a slave and obtained a sorry reward for your
ill-starred inquisitiveness. But,however it was, the
blindness of Fortune,while torturing you with the
worst of perils, has with a malice which proved short-
sighted brought you to this pious happiness. Let her
go now and rage with her worst frenzy and seek some
other object for her cruelty: for hostile chance has no
power against those whose lives have been claimed as
hers by the majesty of our goddess. What profit did
spiteful Fortune derive from robbers or wild beasts or
slavery or the hardest of journeys, bringing you back
to where you started, or the daily fear of death? Now
you have been taken under the protection of Fortune,
yes,and a Fortune that sees, that by the splendour of
her radiance gives light even to the other gods. Put on
now a more cheerful countenance to match your white
raiment, join with glad steps the procession of the
goddess who is your deliverer. Let the irreligious see, let
them see and learn how wrong they are. Lo, Lucius freed
from his old woes by the providence of great Isis
triumphs joyously over his own fortune. Yet that you
may be safer and more protected, enrol in this holy
soldiering, to which you were but now bidden to pledge
yourself,and even now dedicate yourself to the follow-
ing of our religion and take on yourself the voluntary
yoke of service. For when you have begun to serve the
goddess, then you will the more perceive the fruit of the
liberty which is yours.''

After a man learns to be sceptical about all goddesses, that scepticism will not go away, even if the man dies in his effort to hold on to it. Isis offered a return to the fold. I believe the occasion of the conversion should not be Dionysian. Hitler was superbly Dionysian! The present prime minister of the UK appeals to the daft Dionysian element in the British public how else could Boris be allowed to remain in office? Trump has not an Apollonian bone in his body.
The Roman Catholic Church in its wisdom provided opportunities for popular misrule. Does anyone seriously want Dionysian rulers?

Revising the occasion of conversion; the world is in such a dangerous state of dissolution that it's hard to not wish for a miracle.However there are so many charlatans that we need to be sceptical perhaps more especially when the situation is urgent and dangerous.

[Alexis Jacobi]

From Lucretius: De Rerum Natura:

“ ...nothing is more blissful than to occupy the heights effectively fortified by the teaching of the wise, tranquil sanctuaries from which you can look down upon others and see them wandering everywhere in their random search for the way of life, competing for intellectual eminence, disputing about rank, and striving night and day with prodigious effort to scale the summit of wealth and to secure power. O minds of mortals, blighted by your blindness! Amid what deep darkness and daunting dangers life’s little day is passed! To think that you should fail to see that nature importantly demands only that the body may be rid of pain, and that the mind, divorced from anxiety and fear, may enjoy a feeling of contentment!”

[Belinda]

From Lucretius: De Rerum Natura:

“ ...nothing is more blissful than to occupy the heights effectively fortified by the teaching of the wise, tranquil sanctuaries from which you can look down upon others and see them wandering everywhere in their random search for the way of life, competing for intellectual eminence, disputing about rank, and striving night and day with prodigious effort to scale the summit of wealth and to secure power. O minds of mortals, blighted by your blindness! Amid what deep darkness and daunting dangers life’s little day is passed! To think that you should fail to see that nature importantly demands only that the body may be rid of pain, and that the mind, divorced from anxiety and fear, may enjoy a feeling of contentment!”

But we all need a sliver of neuroticism to get us motivated.

[Immanuel Can]

This [i.e. reincarnation]was accepted by the Church,

What historians call "the Church" is usually Constantine's "church," which is to say, Roman Catholicism.

I will let Catholics here say what they accept and do not; and I will leave them to make "saints" of Clement, Origien or Jerome (though their usage of the word "saint" is in no way Biblical at all...in fact, it's contra-Biblical).

But I am a Christian, and not a Catholic. And the Church I recognize started about three centuries before the Catholics got going, and long before Constantine, or Clement, Origen and Jerome. In fact, it was the Church that the emperors all persecuted, not the other one, the one they celebrated after the compromise with Roman paganism Constantine arranged.

So this idea that some old dude, whatever his name, thought reincarnation was okay means nothing to the point. The Church of which Christ spoke never accepted any such thing. And if they ever had, it would only have indicated that for a time, the Church had lost its way; for the Biblical account will support no reincarnation at all, as I already pointed out in my last message, with an associated quotation. Here's another:

"...when a few years have come I shall go the way from which I shall not return." (Job. 16:22)

And I can give you more, if you doubt.

When men say something and it disagrees with what God says, there is never any question who is wrong. Men know nothing about the afterlife, save what God Himself tells them.

Now, you can argue that reincarnation is real. You can argue that person X or Y has supported your view. You can argue that the Bible is wrong in what it says about the afterlife. But the one thing you can't say is that the Bible teaches reincarnation, or that any real Christian can believe in it.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Here is an interesting view of a Dionysian festival.

[Immanuel Can]

I meant your logic that "God can do everything."

This is nothing I ever said, or that Torah would allow. I'm afraid you've ingested an idea about God from pop culture; I don't think it's worth defending.

There are various things that Torah says God cannot do. He cannot lie, cannot sin, cannot be untrue to Himself, cannot fail in what He purposes, cannot break His word, and so on. So when we say, "God can do anything," we must not foolishly imagine that means he can be untrue to Himself or draw a round square, or do anything ridiculous, unholy or self-contradictory. There is no claim in the Bible He ever does any such thing, or that He has to, in order to be who He is.

He is God. He alone is always able to act in accordance with His own nature. Indeed, He never acts otherwise. He is the Faithful God.

[Immanuel Can]

For who spoke to Abraham (Genesis 18) and Gideon (Judges 6)?

Man can hear the voice of God only in his own conscience.

Apparently not. Men like Moses and Abraham spoke to God, as Torah says, "face to face."

The deification of the material is contrary to conscience.

The denigration of the material is contrary to Torah. When God created the world, Torah says repeatedly that "God saw that it was good." If you say that the material is inherently not good, then you are denying Torah, obviously.

Which you are volitionally free to do, of course: but let's not pretend after that that Torah agrees.

[Alexis Jacobi]

The Roman Catholic Church in its wisdom provided opportunities for popular misrule. Does anyone seriously want Dionysian rulers?

I have spent some years now reading Catholic sources, from the Breviary through Catholic philosophers like Gertrud von le Fort and I find that much of the philosophy is excellent. Well-reasoned, sensible, socially directed, intelligent. I admire much Protestant Christian philosophy of course as well.

Revising the occasion of conversion; the world is in such a dangerous state of dissolution that it's hard to not wish for a miracle. However there are so many charlatans that we need to be sceptical perhaps more especially when the situation is urgent and dangerous.

I doubt anyone writing on this forum now would disagree with what you are saying.

[Janoah]

For who spoke to Abraham (Genesis 18) and Gideon (Judges 6)?

Man can hear the voice of God only in his own conscience.

as Torah says,

To believe what is written in the Torah, or in another book, and how to understand what is written, a person can decide only based on his conscience, if he is not a robot or a parrot.

[Immanuel Can]

To believe what is written in the Torah, or in another book, and how to understand what is written, a person can decide only based on his conscience, if he is not a robot or a parrot.

A person can read, and decide what God is saying. Then he can decide to hear the word of God, or to ignore it.

But after that, he can't say he hasn't heard it.

"Shema, Yisrael."