Christianity

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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:11 amDo you understand what I'm saying? Do you think a particular structure is required?

More clarity beyond agenda and ego. More capability beyond agenda and ego. More clarity and capability through more balance and connection with all-of-life.

I am speaking of what I already experience at times, with extraordinary results being manifested, as many other people also experience for themselves. The current implications (for me) are of a naturally connected and synchronistic potential that human beings have access to. Sort of like a different channel we can tune to -- less 'talk radio' :lol: -- more in-depth insight, downloaded in an instant.
I can only say that in my own case 'structure' is required. Because I see my perception, or my structures of perception, as a lens. We see through our lens. In my own case I refer to 'the library' -- both as a concept and a real thing. The library being our compendium of knowledge. Since I am very involved in that, and language, literature and poetry (and scripture), I simply do not know what I would do with what you propose.

If what you refer to is something like Zen-perception, or by-passing structures of the mind, it is not my area so I don't have much to say about it. Having tried marijuana and some other milder psychotrophic substances, and gotten various (strange, compelling) insights, I think I can understand what you might be referring to.

It does seem to me that in one way or another you will have to (as you have attempted here) have to translate your realization into something communicable. But then, perhaps, you'd be back in the same position as many of us: trying to use language (or some other means) to communicate ideas.
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:51 pm I can only say that in my own case 'structure' is required. Because I see my perception, or my structures of perception, as a lens. We see through our lens. In my own case I refer to 'the library' -- both as a concept and a real thing. The library being our compendium of knowledge. Since I am very involved in that, and language, literature and poetry (and scripture), I simply do not know what I would do with what you propose.

If what you refer to is something like Zen-perception, or by-passing structures of the mind, it is not my area so I don't have much to say about it. Having tried marijuana and some other milder psychotrophic substances, and gotten various (strange, compelling) insights, I think I can understand what you might be referring to.

It does seem to me that in one way or another you will have to (as you have attempted here) have to translate your realization into something communicable. But then, perhaps, you'd be back in the same position as many of us: trying to use language (or some other means) to communicate ideas.
Yes. It is very interesting (to me) to see that understanding can come through so many means, and from so many directions. That is why I don't prescribe to anything in particular, and I think a lot of things 'work'. I definitely appreciate order and structure in areas of my life. Maybe I just don't tie my ideas of 'truth' to that? Truth seems bigger than any structure.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:14 pmYou're using "hermeneutics" in a very general way there, are you not? I think you're using it to refer to how anybody interprets anything, such as news events, perhaps. I don't think you're using it in a way limited to actual text, are you?
There is an interesting fellow -- Graeme MacQueen -- who studied comparative religion at Harvard. He is now involved in peace studies ["In 1989 he became founding Director of the Centre for Peace Studies at McMaster, after which he helped develop the B.A. programme in Peace Studies and co-directed (with $2 million in government, UN and NGO funding) peace-building projects in Sri Lanka, Gaza, Croatia and Afghanistan].

He is one of those who has a different view, based on his exegesis (of the sort that he employed in his academic discipline) of the *texts* that are available surrounding 9/11. And through his exegesis he came to very different conclusions. It was through a talk he gave I began to think that our entire present is a *text* requiring a hermeneutics.

[https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/tkel ... 7_14-07_00]

Note: I have no idea what happened at 9/11, and in fact no sufficient tools to be able to know. All that I can say about it is that so much confusing and conflicting information is presented, that in the end it seems to become impossible to know. That state of knowledge impossibility interests me as a topic in itself).
Last edited by Alexis Jacobi on Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:48 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:24 pm
I said that.

It's worse.
Queen Elizabeth, unlike Jesus of Nazareth , has not been deified.
"Deify" means "to raise to deity, from a lower inherent state." Jesus Christ is already Lord...he always has been, even for those people who don't know it yet.

You can't "deify God."

But which is worse: to insult Queen Elizabeth, or to insult God?
I don't like to hear people saying "My God!" about trivial matters.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:35 pm I am proposing that a prophylactic is required, but also interpretive aid. Spiritual help from above.
Can't argue with that.
owl of Minerva
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Re: Christianity

Post by owl of Minerva »

Response to Immanuel Can’s post dated: Thu Nov. 4, 2021

I am not going to respond to your post point-by-point because that would be going down the rabbit hole of religious orthodoxy and dogma. A place it is best to avoid.

Why, if believers acknowledge that there is one God, though worshiped in different ways in different times and climes, it becomes a matter always of my God is better than your God. If Krishna is an imposter and Christ is not, are there two different states of consciousness one for the East and one for the West? If there is one God why would one culture’s liberated Master be less liberated than another culture’s liberated Master? That must be puzzling to atheists and not make sense to them, apart from it not being rational.

It can be said that a person in the East who says: I am aware that I exist has a similar experience as a person in the West who says: I am aware that I exist. It follows that the experience of being liberated from the wheel of material life would be similar.

Orthodoxy and dogma, and proprietary hostage taking of the supposedly one God is a area that most rational people would rather stay clear of, because it is a quagmire.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:16 pmOrthodoxy and dogma, and proprietary hostage taking of the supposedly one God is a area that most rational people would rather stay clear of, because it is a quagmire.
Yet one could say that rational, responsible people have to enter into the consideration of the issue, and they have to make incisive decisions. It is a question of clear seeing and sound use of reason.

The actual 'religion of Krishna' (if Vaishnavism is taken as an example) is a religion that revolves around the literal worship of murtis (dollies effectively) of Krishna and Radha: dressing them up, feeding them elaborate foods which become 'prashadam' (blessed food), and rituals of worship that begin at the break of day and extend to the final hours of the night. It is idolotry compunded I am afraid to say. It has its beauty nonetheless. It has its spiritual and philosophical depth too. Aldous Huxley extolled the Bhagavad Gita with some good reasoning. Still, it is all based on notions of 'offerings' and 'sacrifices'. All of the religions of India, of those I am aware of, involve ritualism of this sort. Sri Aurobindo has taken it to an advanced intellectual level however, that much must be said.

The religion of Christianity, and Christian thought, has so far superseded Vedic thought in India as to be incomparable in reach and scope. See for example The Oxford Companion to Christian Thought. It is arranged like an encyclopedia with entires under different categories.

From the comments:
  • "A couple of things I have loved about this 'book' (an insufficient word, more accurate would be to describe it as a reference tool, a library of human ideas and thought). Foremost is its sheer comprehensiveness, every subject and topic of Christian thought is covered by an expert in the field and with an accompanying further reading section. In addition are subjects dealing with other religions and Christianity's theological relationship with them (a paucity in today's world which often competes with a comparison with culture and history)."
  • "From this expertise therefore emerges the most erudite and enlightening of commentary - another of its strengths. From this authoritativeness is an indispensible guide for any Christian living in the modern world. He who seeks to understand the place of Christianity in the modern world, where it has come from and hints of where it is going. I myself gained solace from the issues of faith which have been previously discussed and treated by eminent theologians from centuries past."
Christian thought, though it is accurate and fair to say few today seem to understand this, is extremely wide-reaching, totally relevant to concerns and issue of the day, and utterly fundamental to ourselves, our life, our culture and civilization. I will agree that Vedic thought is very very interesting, and touches on very interesting ideas & concepts (the Bhagavad Gita is a relevant and important document, to say the very least) but the scope and breadth of Christian thought -- the application of ideas, the ethical breadth -- pales that of the thought that informs East-Indian categories.

This is not a question of cultural chauvinism, though some might paint it like this. I would assert that were you ever to examine the book I referenced you would yourself see what I mean.

The 'revelation' out of which Christianity arose is factually and really of another category. I am uncertain why it is like this, or how it turned out like this, yet I do believe that if the question were examined with openness that what I propose here would be the proper conclusion (it is what I have come to obviously).

If this is so the *source* must be considered.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:37 pm
Age wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:25 am Talk about one thinking 'they know'.
Hi Age. I thought I would just check-in to see if you've expanded your perspective beyond claiming to know what other people think... and nope, it's still your same old projections.

Everything I say is a possibility for consideration... that is all.
So, when you write things like; "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine." What you ACTUALLY MEAN IS, that this is NOT necessarily true AT ALL, and that the Universe may not be strange AT ALL nor stranger than we can imagine AT ALL, correct?

Your Honest answer here will be much appreciated.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:37 pm You have shown repeatedly that you don't understand this.
And, EVERY thing I say is a possibility for consideration. Do you understand this?

You have repeatedly shown that you do not.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:37 pm Your interpretations/conclusions of what you think you know about me are consistently wrong.
Will you provide ANY examples?

If no, then WHY NOT?

But if yes, then GREAT.

We will, at least, have some thing to LOOK AT and CONSIDER.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:37 pm Yet, you appear to have such familiarity and sureness of your projections -- and since they clearly don't apply to me or what I'm thinking -- they must be about you somehow!
Well you can have this PROJECTION if you so wish.

Also, if ANY one would like to CHALLENGE or QUESTION me on my, supposed, 'projections', then PLEASE do.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:37 pm Your misunderstandings and projections are tiresome to deal with, and that's why I stopped talking with you.
LOL And you KEEP SAYING that you have stopped talking with me.

You have also alleged that you have me on your ignore list.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:37 pm So, at this point in time, I can see that I've still got no interest in reading your nonsense claims.
Yet here you are claiming that I am making 'projections' and misunderstanding things, of which you could ONLY do by reading what I write.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:37 pm Maybe I'll check back in another month or so to see if you've discovered how to interact without blasting all of your inaccuracies onto other people for them to deal with.
ONCE AGAIN, here we have ANOTHER EXAMPLE of you making claims but NOT backing up NOR supporting them.

When have I EVER made ("blasted") one inaccuracy, let alone inaccuracies, onto people?

We will WAIT to SEE if, this time, you will provide ANY thing to back up and support your claim here.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:15 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:43 am I know where my debts lie.
You have a debt to some ethnic group?

...and no one understands where racism comes from!
I KNOW where 'racism' comes from. But, then again, 'racism' to you may mean something completely different.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:37 pm Immanuel Can wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:14 am
But God can condescend to reveal Himself in human form, as Torah also says He has done. For who spoke to Abraham (Genesis 18) and Gideon (Judges 6)?

I think you're too influenced by Gnosticism, Janoah. God does not despise the material world.
I agree. Nobody can visualise God unless they personify or otherwise reify His transcendent virtues.
One of the very reasons WHY you claim that "nobody can visualize God' is REVEALED within that expressed thought.

By the way, God is EXTREMELY EASY and SIMPLE to visualize.
Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:37 pm The downside of this fact is the perpetual fight not to idolise the personification or reification. I understand that Xianity has this covered by the doctrine that Jesus Christ is both human and divine.

I agree with IC's second point that God does not despise the material world . The material world, human bodies and so forth are frequently disparaged by some religionists who believe mind is separable from and superior to matter.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:59 pm Sure. And we can all be inspired and transformed by all kinds of ideas, people, and experiences. There are (and have been) amazing people all over this planet, throughout all time periods.
Name one person who is (or has not been) amazing, to you.

Also, is there ANY person who could not inspire you?
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:47 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:59 pmSure. And we can all be inspired and transformed by all kinds of ideas, people, and experiences. There are (and have been) amazing people all over this planet, throughout all time periods.
I want to make one specific comment to this because it is an idea that you work with often. I would say that it is a *core* idea that runs through your entire perspective.

You refer to something general and non-specific as a sort of counter-proposition to what is specific and definite, and also limited and, it must be said, limiting.

So when I read what you write I can say, yes, I certain grasp what you are saying. And in a sense you are right indeed. It is possible to entertain, think about, experience, come under the influence of, live in, live out of, a nearly infinite number of different possibilities. You could (I could, we could) leave our own culture and take up residence in a completely unfamiliar place, with completely different traditions, and yes, we could ‘be inspired and transformed’ by them.

Yet what you propose operates in this discussion, in a sense, like an abstraction. It is true except that in reality, and in general, no person or people live in relation to an infinite array of possibilities. They usually live within the limits and parameters of specific views.
And let us not forget that it is 'specific views', themselves, which is what limits the infinite.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:47 pm It may be that what separates our points-of-view is that, in my case, I have decided on a particular area of focus. That is why I refer all the time to *Occidental Paideia*. The issue then becomes one of valuation, no? The assigning of values but also the assigning, or the recognition, of hierarchies. If I say to you that one thing (some one thing) is better or superior to another I assume you will question the assertion. It might be a suspicious assertion given your orientation.

So if push came to shove (as the popular saying goes) I would not say that one tradition is ‘superior’ or ‘better’ than another, but rather that I can only work with the one that has (as I say) made me me. I guess I would say that I prefer to focus within that one. But it is also true that I do not have those other abstract options (because they are abstractions).
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:01 pm
Janoah wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:26 pm In any case, popularity is not the main criterion of truth for me.
So, in other words, the majority are just the stupid or wretched masses who don't know or do anything worthwhile? I suppose that is certainly possible. It seems to be a common theme with much of philosophy and religion.
WHY did you make such an ASSUMPTION and JUMP to such a CONCLUSION here?

This was OBVIOUSLY NOT what was being said and meant.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:46 pm
Alexis, I appreciate the thoughtful effort you are putting into our discussion. All of this above, that you have 'identified' can be further condensed down (from my perspective) to the issue of people claiming that the ideas they identify with are the only or the highest truth that applies to everyone else, which is used to separate others from that if they don't agree, and is used to dismiss broader capability/potential that flows through all. That's really the gist of what I care about challenging.
If you REALLY cared about challenging 'that' "lacewing", then 'you' would challenge "yourself" first.

As it is 'you' who is one of the biggest offenders of claiming that the idea that you identify with is the only or the highest truth, and this can be CLEARLY SEEN in the way you write.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:19 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote:
-------in reality, and in general, no person or people live in relation to an infinite array of possibilities. They usually live within the limits and parameters of specific views.
That's a static view of how people live. People really live dynamically from past to future, even towards the most banal of everyday activities . Cultures evolve. True, the natal culture exerts its inertia even during the age of individualism.
Living dynamically from past to future involves learning, creativity, and ability to accept that cognitive dissonance spurs one to create; so evolves a culture that holds the hearts and minds of the people who are born into it.

Besides cultural evolution there is also revolution which is caused by some great lop-sidedness of power relations. Revolution is closely linked to reformation. Reformation including by individuals like Jesus of Nazareth, Martin Luther, and several scientific or technological giants
What I observed here is "alexis jacobi" just saying that "in general" (meaning mostly or usually) persons or people do not live in relation to an infinite array of possibilities (but rather they live within an array of possibilities, which they have become accustomed to and used to).
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