Human Nature

[Sculptor]

Perhaps one of you fine gentleman [and if there are any ladies in the gallery] can explain the following...

One might assume that an adult should understand the plethora of benefits accruing to those who maintain a clean personal environment [and I am not talking about OCD-clean]. Just basic cleanliness [self and surrounding stuff].

If people do understand how this practice has greatly improved the quality of human life over the past couple of centuries, why do the vast majority of people hate to clean? Have you seen most people's homes/vehicles? Would it not make sense that performing such simple tasks that lead to so many benefits should be embraced? Are people that f****** lazy?

If they are not motivated enough to put forth the effort to be clean, what can one expect from the society full of these folks?

This has very little to do with human nature, but all to do with human culture.

Aside from that objection there is real logic to not want to clean.
It's generally a waste of time. The very most basic precautions are all you need. Humans are perfectly able to live healthily in a considerable amount of squalor as long as they cook their food. You can even use the same saucepan and frying pan without cleaning then if you want as the heat on each cycle of cooking will remove any harmful germs.
It is perfectly safe to never clean the toilet as long as you just wash your hands.
There is also plenty of evidence that low levels of exposure to dirt are good for you since it provides your immune system with the information it needs to continue to produce antibodies.

As for the quality of life improving..

It is not about personal and house cleaning. The big improvements have come about due to city planning and the provision of clean water combined with the development of germ theory which has taught us about a large range of water bourn diseases. Additionally germ theory has given us the knowledge how best to prepare food along the supply chain, with refrigeration =, preservatives, canning and so on.
Its the "evil" government that people like to attack that has made our food and water safe, as well as all the benefits of medical science.

I know people whose houses are spotless. They get as many ailments as anyone else.
So why waste your limited time on the fruitless obsessive activity of cleaning?
It will make not one jot of difference.

[Sculptor]

Sanford and son

-Imp

Steptoe and Son, never had a day's illness in their lives.

[Veritas Aequitas]

The normal distribution is simply a way to mass process. Sure you can apply it to things like height or blood type, but you cannot apply it to anything beyond that because other human factors consist of infinite variables.

Identity politics is a perfect end-game example of this type of thinking as it has been decided by those seeking political power that all [fill in the blank] are [fill in the blank]. This is incredibly lazy and ignorant thinking.

The Normal Distribution is merely a tool like a 'knife'.
There is a big difference between optimal use of any tool [e.g. the Normal Distribution] and its abuses.

The abuses of the Normal Distribution is prevalent across all aspects of society not just 'identity politics.' I have not read of identity politics applying [abusing] the Normal Distribution for their interests.

The Normal Distribution [ND] is very useful to counter a lot of political claims, e.g. race superiority, e.g. Nazism. That is, superiority in any human variable cannot be exclusively based on race.
Per ND there will be a continuum of super individuals on one extreme to very weak individuals on the other extreme of the curve within the group of Aryans [Germans]. Therefore Hitler cannot claim the Germans were superior as a whole.

Bad actors [almost all groups] will use any and every tool to further their cause [as we see playing out now]. Groups hate individuals because they are hard to process. This is why there is always the drive to put individuals in groups [by all institutions]. That way, you don't have to care about what any particular individual is or needs, you just give everybody the same #%$*! thing [and if they don't like, who cares?]. After all, wouldn't it be great to be a corporation like Verizon or T Mobile [having tens of millions of customers] and offering them just two or three plans? Why not a custom plan that might meet each individual's needs?

And how about health care? Everybody gets the same thing no matter what. Already had COVID [have plenty of homegrown antibodies] and don't need a vax, tough titties, you're going to get it anyway!

Groups and all their "tools" suck.

You are mixing too many variables here.

A tool is just a tool, so the critical point is whether the tool is useful with more pros than cons. Where there are more cons we have to deal with the users and take corrective actions. I believe the Normal Distribution has more pros than cons in general.

As for individuals versus groups, there are also pros and cons.
You seem to be anti-group which is dogmatic.
What is critical is we will leverage on either group or individual in the context for optimality, ultimately for the good of humanity.
If there are groups or individuals who are a threat to humanity, then corrective actions need to be taken [which is not easy, but humans are programmed for improvements in this area] with the necessary imputation of morality & ethics and other positive strategies.

I understand you are into Zen, but note Buddhism in general which focus on the Middle-Way.

[simplicity]

Actually letting go is not that difficult at all. Once you learn how to let go properly then letting go is actually an extremely very simple and easy thing to do.

You might want to have a chat with the historical Buddha about this one.

The benefits of being able to go with the flow/change are innumerable and supported by the aphorism, "One must give everything up in order to get everything."

Once one does give up ALL assuming and believing, then SEEING thee actual Truth of things becomes almost instantaneous.

Yes, but get rid of the "almost."

[simplicity]

Perhaps one of you fine gentleman [and if there are any ladies in the gallery] can explain the following...

One might assume that an adult should understand the plethora of benefits accruing to those who maintain a clean personal environment [and I am not talking about OCD-clean]. Just basic cleanliness [self and surrounding stuff].

If people do understand how this practice has greatly improved the quality of human life over the past couple of centuries, why do the vast majority of people hate to clean? Have you seen most people's homes/vehicles? Would it not make sense that performing such simple tasks that lead to so many benefits should be embraced? Are people that f****** lazy?

If they are not motivated enough to put forth the effort to be clean, what can one expect from the society full of these folks?

This has very little to do with human nature, but all to do with human culture.

Aside from that objection there is real logic to not want to clean.
It's generally a waste of time. The very most basic precautions are all you need. Humans are perfectly able to live healthily in a considerable amount of squalor as long as they cook their food. You can even use the same saucepan and frying pan without cleaning then if you want as the heat on each cycle of cooking will remove any harmful germs.
It is perfectly safe to never clean the toilet as long as you just wash your hands.

Whatever works for you.

As for the quality of life improving..

It is not about personal and house cleaning. The big improvements have come about due to city planning and the provision of clean water combined with the development of germ theory which has taught us about a large range of water bourn diseases. Additionally germ theory has given us the knowledge how best to prepare food along the supply chain, with refrigeration =, preservatives, canning and so on.
Its the "evil" government that people like to attack that has made our food and water safe, as well as all the benefits of medical science.

I know people whose houses are spotless. They get as many ailments as anyone else.
So why waste your limited time on the fruitless obsessive activity of cleaning?
It will make not one jot of difference.

Again, I was not referring to obsessive cleaning, just the basics.

As a physician, I have a lot of first hand experience when it comes to people and their personal habits. Many people need to up their efforts.

As an aside, don't you feel better when you frequent establishments that are clean and well taken care of? I do understand the charm of the traditional local hardware stores that had everything thrown about in a disorderly manner [as opposed to the sterile Home Depot model], but on the whole, I'll go with clean and orderly over not-so-clean and chaotic 99% of the time.

[simplicity]

You are mixing too many variables here.

A tool is just a tool, so the critical point is whether the tool is useful with more pros than cons. Where there are more cons we have to deal with the users and take corrective actions. I believe the Normal Distribution has more pros than cons in general.

Well, I am all for guns, but I am not sure that people bopping down the street with them is such a good idea.

As for individuals versus groups, there are also pros and cons.
You seem to be anti-group which is dogmatic.

I have always enjoyed Nietzsche's take on groups...

"In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."

What is critical is we will leverage on either group or individual in the context for optimality, ultimately for the good of humanity.
If there are groups or individuals who are a threat to humanity, then corrective actions need to be taken [which is not easy, but humans are programmed for improvements in this area] with the necessary imputation of morality & ethics and other positive strategies.

I understand the way it might be on planet Utopia, but here on planet Earth, not so much.

I understand you are into Zen, but note Buddhism in general which focus on the Middle-Way.

I know I should never participate in these forums, but it's not as harmful as drugs, not as expensive as women, and uses less natural resources than fancy cars [one of my other vices].

Man cannot live by impermanence alone...

[Lacewing]

Nice post.

Letting go is the most difficult task we humans confront and a state few will ever achieve. The benefits of being able to go with the flow/change are innumerable and supported by the aphorism, "One must give everything up in order to get everything."

Thank you. Yes, the idea of "giving up everything in order to get everything" can easily sound unfathomable. It reminds me of a book I read that said something like... "Lesson 1: Forget everything you've been told." People who might take this literally would be horrified. But I recognized it as a call to step off the immobilizing positions I held. After all, how much of that was made-up to suit one thing or another? And if it was preventing me from realizing how much more there was to work with, it was best to give that up.

I wish such freedom and clarity and potential for everyone... if that's what they want.

From my experience, it is fascinating to live in the world as an observer as well as a participant. There is more capability. We can still "play out" all kinds of things. I can watch myself, and not take things too seriously. Sometimes I forget... and then when I notice, it's not a big deal. It's like "Ah, yes. Ha ha." There is more appreciation for all of it, because it is not perceived as any certain limitation. Rather, I see it as creations of all types, and people who are engaging in all kinds of ways. How much more effective and happy might people be, I wonder, if they were being an observer as well as a participant? At the same time, there is nothing wrong with living one's life fully intoxicated on a certain stage (even though I make fun of it a lot). There must be people in the audience throwing tomatoes too... it's all part of the show and the fun.

How much of that show do we create, I wonder, by clinging to it?

[simplicity]

From my experience, it is fascinating to live in the world as an observer as well as a participant. There is more capability. We can still "play out" all kinds of things. I can watch myself, and not take things too seriously. Sometimes I forget... and then when I notice, it's not a big deal. It's like "Ah, yes. Ha ha." There is more appreciation for all of it, because it is not perceived as any certain limitation. Rather, I see it as creations of all types, and people who are engaging in all kinds of ways. How much more effective and happy might people be, I wonder, if they were being an observer as well as a participant? At the same time, there is nothing wrong with living one's life fully intoxicated on a certain stage (even though I make fun of it a lot). There must be people in the audience throwing tomatoes too... it's all part of the show and the fun.

I once heard a Zen master say...the most intelligent and insightful person's entire comprehension pales in comparison with any average person's moment of clarity...

How much of that show do we create, I wonder, by clinging to it?

100%...the intellectual is clinging, by definition.

[Age]

Actually letting go is not that difficult at all. Once you learn how to let go properly then letting go is actually an extremely very simple and easy thing to do.

You might want to have a chat with the historical Buddha about this one.

Here is another example of just how believing things are true is the very reason why some people can not let go and find letting go difficult.

It is the very act of believing, which is what is preventing and stopping you from letting go.

Letting go, for me anyway, is NOT difficult at all.

The benefits of being able to go with the flow/change are innumerable and supported by the aphorism, "One must give everything up in order to get everything."

Once one does give up ALL assuming and believing, then SEEING thee actual Truth of things becomes almost instantaneous.

Yes, but get rid of the "almost."

Why get rid of the "almost"?

Every thing observed is not seen instantly, this is because every thing seen is a distance away from thee seeing.

[Conde Lucanor]

Perhaps one of you fine gentleman [and if there are any ladies in the gallery] can explain the following...

One might assume that an adult should understand the plethora of benefits accruing to those who maintain a clean personal environment [and I am not talking about OCD-clean]. Just basic cleanliness [self and surrounding stuff].

If people do understand how this practice has greatly improved the quality of human life over the past couple of centuries, why do the vast majority of people hate to clean? Have you seen most people's homes/vehicles? Would it not make sense that performing such simple tasks that lead to so many benefits should be embraced? Are people that f****** lazy?

If they are not motivated enough to put forth the effort to be clean, what can one expect from the society full of these folks?

I don't see how is this related to "human nature". Cleaning is a learned human behavior and the standards of cleanliness vary in time, location and different strata of socialization or individual action. That's all that is needed to understand why some people think of cleanliness differently.

[Age]

Nice post.

Letting go is the most difficult task we humans confront and a state few will ever achieve. The benefits of being able to go with the flow/change are innumerable and supported by the aphorism, "One must give everything up in order to get everything."

Thank you. Yes, the idea of "giving up everything in order to get everything" can easily sound unfathomable. It reminds me of a book I read that said something like... "Lesson 1: Forget everything you've been told." People who might take this literally would be horrified. But I recognized it as a call to step off the immobilizing positions I held. After all, how much of that was made-up to suit one thing or another? And if it was preventing me from realizing how much more there was to work with, it was best to give that up.

I wish such freedom and clarity and potential for everyone... if that's what they want.

From my experience, it is fascinating to live in the world as an observer as well as a participant. There is more capability. We can still "play out" all kinds of things. I can watch myself, and not take things too seriously. Sometimes I forget... and then when I notice, it's not a big deal. It's like "Ah, yes. Ha ha." There is more appreciation for all of it, because it is not perceived as any certain limitation. Rather, I see it as creations of all types, and people who are engaging in all kinds of ways. How much more effective and happy might people be, I wonder, if they were being an observer as well as a participant? At the same time, there is nothing wrong with living one's life fully intoxicated on a certain stage (even though I make fun of it a lot). There must be people in the audience throwing tomatoes too... it's all part of the show and the fun.

How much of that show do we create, I wonder, by clinging to it?

Only those who have not yet gained true and full understanding would "throw tomatoes at others".

Your way of judging and ridiculing "others" just because they do not do, nor view, things the way you do just shows how wrong "your way" ACTUALLY IS.

You "throw tomatoes" at those people who expect "others" to do, and look at, things "their way", that is; the way they say is the best, which is exactly what you continuously do here. That is say and claim that "your way" is the best way, which all "others" should do also. The hypocrisy is blinding.

[Sculptor]

Perhaps one of you fine gentleman [and if there are any ladies in the gallery] can explain the following...

One might assume that an adult should understand the plethora of benefits accruing to those who maintain a clean personal environment [and I am not talking about OCD-clean]. Just basic cleanliness [self and surrounding stuff].

If people do understand how this practice has greatly improved the quality of human life over the past couple of centuries, why do the vast majority of people hate to clean? Have you seen most people's homes/vehicles? Would it not make sense that performing such simple tasks that lead to so many benefits should be embraced? Are people that f****** lazy?

If they are not motivated enough to put forth the effort to be clean, what can one expect from the society full of these folks?

This has very little to do with human nature, but all to do with human culture.

Aside from that objection there is real logic to not want to clean.
It's generally a waste of time. The very most basic precautions are all you need. Humans are perfectly able to live healthily in a considerable amount of squalor as long as they cook their food. You can even use the same saucepan and frying pan without cleaning then if you want as the heat on each cycle of cooking will remove any harmful germs.
It is perfectly safe to never clean the toilet as long as you just wash your hands.

Whatever works for you.

As for the quality of life improving..

It is not about personal and house cleaning. The big improvements have come about due to city planning and the provision of clean water combined with the development of germ theory which has taught us about a large range of water bourn diseases. Additionally germ theory has given us the knowledge how best to prepare food along the supply chain, with refrigeration =, preservatives, canning and so on.
Its the "evil" government that people like to attack that has made our food and water safe, as well as all the benefits of medical science.

I know people whose houses are spotless. They get as many ailments as anyone else.
So why waste your limited time on the fruitless obsessive activity of cleaning?
It will make not one jot of difference.

Again, I was not referring to obsessive cleaning, just the basics.

As a physician, I have a lot of first hand experience when it comes to people and their personal habits. Many people need to up their efforts.

Most cops think everyone is a crook, because they only ever see perps.

As an aside, don't you feel better when you frequent establishments that are clean and well taken care of? I do understand the charm of the traditional local hardware stores that had everything thrown about in a disorderly manner [as opposed to the sterile Home Depot model], but on the whole, I'll go with clean and orderly over not-so-clean and chaotic 99% of the time.

It's only important for places that sell food and drinks; Pharmacists too, otherwise meh

[simplicity]

Here is another example of just how believing things are true is the very reason why some people can not let go and find letting go difficult.

It is the very act of believing, which is what is preventing and stopping you from letting go.

Letting go, for me anyway, is NOT difficult at all.

If one wishes to communicate on a forum such as this, then one must visit the dark side. What is your definition of "letting go?"

Why get rid of the "almost"?

Every thing observed is not seen instantly, this is because every thing seen is a distance away from thee seeing.

If you can stop conceptual thought, you have gone as far as you can go.

When you return to The One, ...

[simplicity]

I don't see how is this related to "human nature". Cleaning is a learned human behavior and the standards of cleanliness vary in time, location and different strata of socialization or individual action. That's all that is needed to understand why some people think of cleanliness differently.

I don't think so. If you take a large group of people who have similar socialization, you will find a large disparity in cleaning habits. Some people are into it, some people are not [for all kinds of reasons].

[simplicity]

Most cops think everyone is a crook, because they only ever see perps.

I've known my fair share of cops and most seem pretty much like everybody else.

It's only important [cleanliness] for places that sell food and drinks; Pharmacists too, otherwise meh

Well, you are certainly on the right planet.