Aye, indeed. I’ve had my final awakening, I reached the impasse, and now I’m finally at peace. My aim is to keep it sane by poking out the insane…there’s nothing like a good old gouging out the puss when it comes to human hypocrisy.Atla wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:44 pmYou've become quite the keeper of sanity DAMDontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:55 pmUntil you learn to have respect and regard for other peoples opinions, until you learn to love others as you would love yourself, do unto others as you would want them to do to you, treat others how you would want to be treated, only then will you have the authority to inform others what is Actual philosophy.attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:52 pm
The fact that U are permitted to spout your drivel across a forum that is supposed to represent a love of "WISDOM" is testament that there is a complete disregard for actual ''PHILOSOPHY''....on this forum, ergo RL feed me in.
Until then, you'll just remain a kunt.
.![]()
Reality is Inaccessible
Re: Reality is Inaccessible
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Re: Reality is Inaccessible
Ok, 1 more time Veritas...(one who sees dicks and balls in Scandinavia!)
If reality is NOT what we perceive conciously and is indeed, "INACCESIBLE" - then define Reality, because as it stand - in your account it DOES NOT EXIST.
What you refer to as 'mere personal opinion' are exactly the same as that massive list of so called 'philosophers' that you provided have.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:29 amIf you are not going to budge without providing any objective justification that is merely a personal opinion. Philosophically there is nothing to rationalize with what is mere personal opinions.attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:32 amEr, yes we can. I don't care what a bunch of 'philosophers' that you hold in some regard on the matter have to say about it.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:17 am
We cannot be absolute certain that "Reality is what our consciousness perceives".
Reality ultimately is what we perceive consciously, and I ain't gonna budge on that.
If reality is NOT what we perceive conciously and is indeed, "INACCESIBLE" - then define Reality, because as it stand - in your account it DOES NOT EXIST.
Re: Reality is Inaccessible
Does Sculptor know Sculptor is a philosophical realist, or is this a sorting hat sorta thing? I don't know what I am. I believe what we see is "the really real objective noumena-cat-in-itself" - or else, the existence of the cat, the light reflected from it, my sensory perception - and the consequent changes in my brain, are all objective physical processes.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:43 amMy post is not about Kant but rather your ignorance is labelling someone with Objectivism when that is not the case.Vitruvius wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:21 amYou lost me at Noumena! If you have to write a book 850 pages long, and make up words - such that the reader has no choice but to buy in by learning your jargon, you're not really a philosopher. You're a cult leader. The cult of Kant is not for me thank you!Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:37 am
Here is Sculptor's perspective [as a Philosophical Realist] as I understand it.
[I don't agree with it in the Ultimate Sense as highlighted in the OP].
Note;
- 1. Sculptor is a Philosophical Realist.
2. When Sculptor 'sees' a cat, there is an objective cat in reality out there.
3. What is perceived is the phenomena-cat as a representation of the really real objective noumena-cat-in-itself.
4. What is inaccessible is the really-real objective noumena-cat-in-itself.
5. The noumena-cat is always separated from the phenomena cat due to the inherent human conditions to grasp its reality via intermediate elements.
6. The above is the same with all of reality, thus reality-in-itself is inaccessible. But this inaccessible-reality nevertheless exists as an independent really-real-objective-reality 'out there.'which imply the really-real-objective-reality will always and eternally be inaccessible.
- [Philosophical] Realists tend to believe that whatever we believe now is only an approximation of reality but that the accuracy and fullness of understanding can be improved..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
Only its approximation can be improved but humans can never know 100% what reality really is.
The ultimate philosophical question is;
is there such a supposedly external independent really-real-objective-reality as claimed by the Philosophical Realists?
My answer is no, but my claim is not of Subjectivism.
Subjectivism claims what is real is ONLY in the mind, e.g. Berkeley's subjective Idealism and other similar others. Subjectivism do not recognize the existence of any noumena-cat-in-itself but only perceptions. Esse is Percipi.
Btw, in general, one is either a philosophical realist or anti-philosophical realist.
If you claim reality and its things exist externally and independent of the human mind [human conditions] then you are a Philosophical Realist and you must then agree with Sculptor.
There is no other way [rare exceptions] unless you are a typical subjectivist, idealists, and the likes who claimed things are all in the mind only.
As such Sculptor is not a subjectivist nor hold on to subjectivism.
My stance is empirical realism [totally different from philosophical realism] thus not subjectivism.
Surely what you mean is apperception; which is to say, understanding of perception - and clearly that depends on what you know about cats. If you've never seen a cat before, your apperception will be radically different from someone who is familiar with cats - while the physical perceptions are the same. A taxidermist - for example, would have a very different apperception of the same physical perceptions of a cat, than would a little girl, or Sculptor - because of their very different states of knowledge about cats.
In this way, one can maintain the subjective observer, without sacrificing the accuracy of perception to reality, or denying the overwhelming commonality of perception amongst people. i.e. we both see a cat, but I see a cat that reminds me of aunty Doris, whereas, the same physical perceptions remind you of the bloody thing that takes its constitutional on your lawn. There is a subjective observer - what there isn't, is subjective perception. Perception occurs in physical reality, and the physical equipment developed by evolution is, and must be - accurate to what actually exists.
a) because otherwise we couldn't have survived, and...
b) in order to explain the commonality of perception. (art, traffic lights etc)
The essential nature of the subject - the ghost in the machine, the consciousness, that which understands - remains an imponderable question in this approach; and that's how it seems to be in real life. So what's the sorting hat have to say about that?
Re: Reality is Inaccessible
That remains a mystery (unless the 3rd party intelligence reveals the truth)
Re: Reality is Inaccessible
To say an object is independent of the mind is to in fact observe it as part of the mind given the negative limits which defined it (ie what the object is not) are in fact observed as part of the mind given they are observed through the mind.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:24 amAs I had presented, if the person hold on to Philosophical Realism as defined, i.e.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:36 amIf reality is inaccessible then we already have access to said reality by observing its limits thus leading to a paradox.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:19 am
If we reflect more deeply into the statement, "Reality is inaccessible",
it is actually an impossibility and eternally that we will NEVER ever access that really real reality 'out there'.
As such, what we have is only a humanly-projected-thought-reality where whatever is corresponded to it is questionable.
Just as Russell had asserted 'Perhaps there is no real table at all"
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32814
it is likely there is no such humanly-projected-thought-reality
The philosophical point is humans by default are "programmed" and compelled to think and reasoned out that there must be an ultimate reality [which upon reflection is impossible to be accessed].
Such a default 'program' to reason out an inaccessible and impossible ultimate has its pros and cons.
One of the pros is that thinking of the ultimate do facilitate survival [esp. the earlier primal days] and evolution of the self in driving and striving for further knowledge. It is also therapeutic.
But the cons is that such an empty projected thought of reality leaves room for most to be compelled to reify [making reality out of nothing] it as a Being with consciousness, i.e. God.
Since according to you "Reality is inaccessible" you have no grounds to argue against the claim that God exists as real. So certain theists has a free hand to kill non-believers because their "really-real" God command them to do so while you and your likes remain helpless to counter their claims.
While clinging to an illusory God is therapeutic for the majority it has also brought forth VERY terrible sufferings to humanity and the individuals.
This is where some savants thousands of years ago were enlightened to understand there is no such humanly really real projected reality out there in the first place. Therefrom they dig deep philosophically to cultivate 'detachment' to such an ultimate inaccessible reality to avoid the terrible sufferings in clinging to something that is illusory.
This is where Eastern Philosophy came in since >10,000 or >5000 years ago and that is brought forth to the present while it had also influenced Western Philosophy.
This detachment is from the supposedly-ultimate-reality and not detaching from the real empirical world.
The current resistance to the above besides the theists are the Philosophical Realists and other realists who are still clinging to that inaccessible-reality-in-thought dogmatically and aggressively defending it like there is no tomorrow.
Views?then logically, such a reality is inaccessible as I had demonstrated above.
- [Philosophical] Realism can also be a view about the properties of reality in general, holding that reality exists independent of the mind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
There is no paradox if we reflect more deeply, i.e.
to claim that reality is directly accessible then one has to be an anti-Philosophical_Realist who can justify reality is accessible, e.g. Kantian Empirical Realism.
So which are you, a philosophical realist [as defined above] or anti-Philosophical_Realist?
To say an object is dependent upon the mind is to in fact observe it as existing outside the mind given a principle which defined said object (and the mind by default) is what guides the mind (ie the principle exists beyond the mind as directing it much in the same manner of the mind being the subset of said principle).
The philosophical realist vs the antiphilosophical realist stance is a false dichotomy given not only do they define the mind (either apophatically by stating what the mind is not, or cataphatically by stating what the mind is) but both end in contradiction when left on there own terms.
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Reality is Inaccessible
Generally [note], either you are a Philosophical Realist [things exist independent of mind] or Idealist [ things exists in Mind].Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:15 pmWhat "way" is that "very logical"?Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:41 am for whatever is perceived, there must be 'the perceived' which is inaccessible.
In a way this is very logical.
If you don't agree with the above,
I am aware you are not an Idealist.
Since you are a Philosophical Realist, whatever you perceived in Mind must correspond to some thing perceived outside your mind.
Isn't that logical in accordance to being a Philosophical Realist?
If as above that-which-is-perceived is independent and outside your mind, then it is logical there is a reality gap which is inaccessible.Um, no, and lol re assuming a "reality gap."then the independent things out there must be inaccessible because of the reality gap.
In this case you are insulting your own intelligence due to ignorance of your own dilemma as demonstrated above.It is either or, so you have to resolve your own dilemma.
The only "dilemma" I'd say I have is people claiming silly things on boards like this.
You are either a Philosophical Realist or Idealist, "you cannot have your cake and eat it [too]."
In my case [not general] I can resolve the dilemma via Empirical Realism & Transcendental Idealism complementariness.
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Reality is Inaccessible
If you have not read Russell Problem of Philosopher,Vitruvius wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:57 amDoes Sculptor know Sculptor is a philosophical realist, or is this a sorting hat sorta thing? I don't know what I am. I believe what we see is "the really real objective noumena-cat-in-itself" - or else, the existence of the cat, the light reflected from it, my sensory perception - and the consequent changes in my brain, are all objective physical processes.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:43 amMy post is not about Kant but rather your ignorance is labelling someone with Objectivism when that is not the case.Vitruvius wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:21 am
You lost me at Noumena! If you have to write a book 850 pages long, and make up words - such that the reader has no choice but to buy in by learning your jargon, you're not really a philosopher. You're a cult leader. The cult of Kant is not for me thank you!
Surely what you mean is apperception; which is to say, understanding of perception - and clearly that depends on what you know about cats. If you've never seen a cat before, your apperception will be radically different from someone who is familiar with cats - while the physical perceptions are the same. A taxidermist - for example, would have a very different apperception of the same physical perceptions of a cat, than would a little girl, or Sculptor - because of their very different states of knowledge about cats.
In this way, one can maintain the subjective observer, without sacrificing the accuracy of perception to reality, or denying the overwhelming commonality of perception amongst people. i.e. we both see a cat, but I see a cat that reminds me of aunty Doris, whereas, the same physical perceptions remind you of the bloody thing that takes its constitutional on your lawn. There is a subjective observer - what there isn't, is subjective perception. Perception occurs in physical reality, and the physical equipment developed by evolution is, and must be - accurate to what actually exists.
a) because otherwise we couldn't have survived, and...
b) in order to explain the commonality of perception. (art, traffic lights etc)
The essential nature of the subject - the ghost in the machine, the consciousness, that which understands - remains an imponderable question in this approach; and that's how it seems to be in real life. So what's the sorting hat have to say about that?
Read Chapter 1 which is relevant to the above point;
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Prob ... /Chapter_1
What are your view on that?
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Reality is Inaccessible
I had presented what Philosophical Realism is claiming as above;Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:37 pmTo say an object is independent of the mind is to in fact observe it as part of the mind given the negative limits which defined it (ie what the object is not) are in fact observed as part of the mind given they are observed through the mind.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:24 amAs I had presented, if the person hold on to Philosophical Realism as defined, i.e.then logically, such a reality is inaccessible as I had demonstrated above.
- [Philosophical] Realism can also be a view about the properties of reality in general, holding that reality exists independent of the mind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
There is no paradox if we reflect more deeply, i.e.
to claim that reality is directly accessible then one has to be an anti-Philosophical_Realist who can justify reality is accessible, e.g. Kantian Empirical Realism.
So which are you, a philosophical realist [as defined above] or anti-Philosophical_Realist?
To say an object is dependent upon the mind is to in fact observe it as existing outside the mind given a principle which defined said object (and the mind by default) is what guides the mind (ie the principle exists beyond the mind as directing it much in the same manner of the mind being the subset of said principle).
The philosophical realist vs the antiphilosophical realist stance is a false dichotomy given not only do they define the mind (either apophatically by stating what the mind is not, or cataphatically by stating what the mind is) but both end in contradiction when left on there own terms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
If you don't agree with Philosophical Realism then you are literally an anti-Philosophical_Realism. You cannot deny this literary.
Your points above makes you anti-Philosophical_Realist.
Not all anti-Philosophical Realists claim reality is dependent on the mind, but generally the mind is involved somehow.
Re: Reality is Inaccessible
"In the search for certainty, it is natural..."Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:53 am
If you have not read Russell Problem of Philosopher,
Read Chapter 1 which is relevant to the above point;
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Prob ... /Chapter_1
What are your view on that?
There's your problem. The search for certainty is not at all natural. It's not reasonable, despite claims to the contrary - as this passage illustrates:
"It seems to me that I am now sitting in a chair, at a table of a certain shape, on which I see sheets of paper with writing or print. By turning my head I see out of the window buildings and clouds and the sun. I believe that the sun is about ninety-three million miles from the earth; that it is a hot globe many times bigger than the earth; that, owing to the earth's rotation, it rises every morning, and will continue to do so for an indefinite time in the future.
I believe that, if any other normal person comes into my room, he will see the same chairs and tables and books and papers as I see, and that the table which I see is the same as the table which I feel pressing against my arm. All this seems to be so evident as to be hardly worth stating, except in answer to a man who doubts whether I know anything. Yet all this may be reasonably doubted, and all of it requires much careful discussion before we can be sure that we have stated it in a form that is wholly true."
No, it may not 'reasonably' be doubted. It may doubted - as in Descartes' powerful demon, deceiving him to believe he has a body, and senses with which to experience the world, but it is not reasonable. It's skeptical doubt - beyond reason as defined by Occam's razor. The reasonable person lives with epistemic uncertainty. Only subjectivism requires absolute certainty - and makes a fiction of everything that can most reasonably be known, in order to establish certainty apropos of nothing but 'I think therefore I am.'
Descartes wrote Meditations while Galileo was on trial for the heresy of using scientific method to establish truth in contradiction of Biblical orthodoxy. The Church banned Galileo's works, while Descartes was granted an appointment to the royal court of Queen Christina of Sweden; and Western philosophy followed in this course, blowing smoke up the pampered arses of aristocrats - whose privilege was based on the Divine Rights of Kings. Subjectivism is no threat to religious dogma - or thereby, political power justified with reference to God, because subjectivism maintains the subjective/spiritual - in denial of the objective/mundane. If you imagine evil demons are tricking you; creating your sensory experience of an objective reality, then you can say 'perhaps, there really is no table' - but you can't call that reasonable doubt.
The reasonable explanation assumes that what we experience exists, and that sensory perception is essentially accurate to (not comprehensive of) what exists, for otherwise we could not navigate the world. Further, there's an apparent commonality of perception among people that allows for art and traffic lights, etc - and all this overwhelming evidence is cast aside quite unreasonably by subjectivism; because, the assumption of an evil demon deceiving you, creates more questions than it answers - and as Occam states, "It is vain to do with more that which can be done with fewer."
The simplest explanation is the best, and it is simpler to assume what we experience via the senses exists objectively - independently of our experience of it, than it is to imagine a all powerful demon creating a false reality we only seem to experience. Indeed, it's a natural phase in the cognitive development of infants that we learn object permanence. Further, it's inconceivable evolution would create senses that are inaccurate to reality - because they serve a survival function, and the design is only passed on insofar as they serve that purpose.
It's understandable that the Church adopted an antithetical relationship to science; and understandable that philosophy justified that stance - but it's a mistake. It's difficult to illustrate, because it didn't happen - but had the Church welcomed Galileo as discovering the means to understand the word of God made manifest in Creation, science would have been pursued, and integrated into politics, economics and society, and technology would have been developed and applied rationally, and we would have limitless clean energy - and would not have nuclear weapons. Having undermined science as truth however, technology has been applied for the power and profit of governments and industry - in competition with other ideologically defined groups, and so here we are - all threatened by climate change, and unable to reconcile the scientific reality with the ideological reality.
This is why it's important to recognise this as a mistake; because the opposite side of this coin - accepting science as truth and acting accordingly, is key to solving climate change. Naturally, one would focus this perspective like a laser on what is most fundamentally, and systematically necessary to a sustainable future, but recognising this error allows us to do an end run around our ideological identities and purposes, accept a scientific understanding of reality in common, and on that basis - drill into the hot molten interior of the earth, and provide the world with limitless clean energy to fight climate change.
Last edited by Vitruvius on Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.
- Terrapin Station
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Re: Reality is Inaccessible
What you'd need to do here is present the logical argument, where it needs to literally be logic, for "there must be 'the perceived' which is inaccessible."Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:49 amGenerally [note], either you are a Philosophical Realist [things exist independent of mind] or Idealist [ things exists in Mind].Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:15 pmWhat "way" is that "very logical"?Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:41 am for whatever is perceived, there must be 'the perceived' which is inaccessible.
In a way this is very logical.
If you don't agree with the above,
I am aware you are not an Idealist.
Since you are a Philosophical Realist, whatever you perceived in Mind must correspond to some thing perceived outside your mind.
Isn't that logical in accordance to being a Philosophical Realist?
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Reality is Inaccessible
You got it wrong above as you did not read the point carefully,Vitruvius wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:55 am"In the search for certainty, it is natural..."Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:53 am
If you have not read Russell Problem of Philosopher,
Read Chapter 1 which is relevant to the above point;
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Prob ... /Chapter_1
What are your view on that?
There's your problem. The search for certainty is not at all natural. It's not reasonable, despite claims to the contrary - as this passage illustrates:
- "It seems to me that I am now sitting in a chair, at a table of a certain shape, on which I see sheets of paper with writing or print. By turning my head I see out of the window buildings and clouds and the sun. I believe that the sun is about ninety-three million miles from the earth; that it is a hot globe many times bigger than the earth; that, owing to the earth's rotation, it rises every morning, and will continue to do so for an indefinite time in the future.
I believe that, if any other normal person comes into my room, he will see the same chairs and tables and books and papers as I see, and that the table which I see is the same as the table which I feel pressing against my arm. All this seems to be so evident as to be hardly worth stating, except in answer to a man who doubts whether I know anything. Yet all this may be reasonably doubted, and all of it requires much careful discussion before we can be sure that we have stated it in a form that is wholly true."
note the full statement is;
"In the search for certainty, it is natural to begin with our present experiences,.. "
It did not state 'it is natural to search for certainty.'
What the above implied is, if one were to search for certainty driven by whatever the reason, then, "it is natural to begin with our present experiences,.. "
The point above aside, I believe ALL humans are "programmed" to search for certainty to facilitate survival, thus, in that sense it is natural. Until Hume and others, all humans has this certainty and they want that certainty, the Sun will rise tomorrow and other certainties that they have expected.
After Hume and upon evidences that what we perceived and expect are not what it seem to be, we can 'reasonably' doubt.No, it may not 'reasonably' be doubted. It may doubted - as in Descartes' powerful demon, deceiving him to believe he has a body, and senses with which to experience the world, but it is not reasonable. It's skeptical doubt - beyond reason as defined by Occam's razor. The reasonable person lives with epistemic uncertainty. Only subjectivism requires absolute certainty - and makes a fiction of everything that can most reasonably be known, in order to establish certainty apropos of nothing but 'I think therefore I am.'
Didn't you read the whole Chapter 1 [it is a short one] where Russell gave his reason why it may be reasonably doubted.
You should counter the reason he gave instead if flying off tangent to the above.
Give me references to support your point, "Only subjectivism requires absolute certainty"
The above is off tangent from my perspective.Descartes wrote Meditations while Galileo was on trial for the heresy of using scientific method to establish truth in contradiction of Biblical orthodoxy. The Church banned Galileo's works, while Descartes was granted an appointment to the royal court of Queen Christina of Sweden; and Western philosophy followed in this course, blowing smoke up the pampered arses of aristocrats - whose privilege was based on the Divine Rights of Kings. Subjectivism is no threat to religious dogma - or thereby, political power justified with reference to God, because subjectivism maintains the subjective/spiritual - in denial of the objective/mundane. If you imagine evil demons are tricking you; creating your sensory experience of an objective reality, then you can say 'perhaps, there really is no table' - but you can't call that reasonable doubt.
The reasonable explanation assumes that what we experience exists, and that sensory perception is essentially accurate to (not comprehensive of) what exists, for otherwise we could not navigate the world. Further, there's an apparent commonality of perception among people that allows for art and traffic lights, etc - and all this overwhelming evidence is cast aside quite unreasonably by subjectivism; because, the assumption of an evil demon deceiving you, creates more questions than it answers - and as Occam states, "It is vain to do with more that which can be done with fewer."
The simplest explanation is the best, and it is simpler to assume what we experience via the senses exists objectively - independently of our experience of it, than it is to imagine a all powerful demon creating a false reality we only seem to experience. Indeed, it's a natural phase in the cognitive development of infants that we learn object permanence. Further, it's inconceivable evolution would create senses that are inaccurate to reality - because they serve a survival function, and the design is only passed on insofar as they serve that purpose.
It's understandable that the Church adopted an antithetical relationship to science; and understandable that philosophy justified that stance - but it's a mistake. It's difficult to illustrate, because it didn't happen - but had the Church welcomed Galileo as discovering the means to understand the word of God made manifest in Creation, science would have been pursued, and integrated into politics, economics and society, and technology would have been developed and applied rationally, and we would have limitless clean energy - and would not have nuclear weapons. Having undermined science as truth however, technology has been applied for the power and profit of governments and industry - in competition with other ideologically defined groups, and so here we are - all threatened by climate change, and unable to reconcile the scientific reality with the ideological reality.
This is why it's important to recognise this as a mistake; because the opposite side of this coin - accepting science as truth and acting accordingly, is key to solving climate change. Naturally, one would focus this perspective like a laser on what is most fundamentally, and systematically necessary to a sustainable future, but recognising this error allows us to do an end run around our ideological identities and purposes, accept a scientific understanding of reality in common, and on that basis - drill into the hot molten interior of the earth, and provide the world with limitless clean energy to fight climate change.
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Reality is Inaccessible
I have provided the argument here;Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:23 pmWhat you'd need to do here is present the logical argument, where it needs to literally be logic, for "there must be 'the perceived' which is inaccessible."Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:49 amGenerally [note], either you are a Philosophical Realist [things exist independent of mind] or Idealist [ things exists in Mind].
I am aware you are not an Idealist.
Since you are a Philosophical Realist, whatever you perceived in Mind must correspond to some thing perceived outside your mind.
Isn't that logical in accordance to being a Philosophical Realist?
Russell: Perhaps There is no Table at all
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32814
Btw, you have not proven there is a really real thing existing independently out there.
For simplicity sake, demonstrate how do you justify the ultimate reality of the table you are writing on is accessible. Note 'ultimate reality' not just common sense reality and other variations.
Re: Reality is Inaccessible
That's a consequence of knowing things; that one is then able to explain how they relate to each other!
It's a thing in philosophy!
How do you imagine that's possible? Are you asking I list, and exclude every other epistemic philosophy ever? Clearly, scientific method doesn't require certainty, or presume to arrive at certain knowledge. Certainty is a false virtue; a windmill for religious philosophers to tilt at, while real knowledge was produced by a method of reasonable doubt.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:54 am Give me references to support your point, "Only subjectivism requires absolute certainty"
Then you'd be completely and utterly, 100% wrong. The human mind doesn't await certainty of knowledge, because it's built to survive in the wild. Reacting to perceptual clues that suggest a predator, I could be wrong - but I'd survive if I were right, so the evolutionary advantage does not lie with certainty. Awaiting certainty of knowledge will get you killed.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:54 amThe point above aside, I believe ALL humans are "programmed" to search for certainty to facilitate survival, thus, in that sense it is natural. Until Hume and others, all humans has this certainty and they want that certainty, the Sun will rise tomorrow and other certainties that they have expected.