Religion is Man- Made

[Dontaskme]

Ah. So questions like "who is it that is suffering?" are of no value or interest to you right now.

The question has never been of any value to me.

If there's no value, then why have you repeatedly asked it of other people from your non-dualism platform, when they are relating their thoughts and experiences? Why don't you address all of the things you're claiming now, with the non-dualism responses you've been giving to everyone else for years?

There is value, I've already explained how and why the concept of value is formed. I do address all the things I am claiming now with nondual answers.


I don't understand what you are trying to tell me, I'm sorry but I do not know what you are saying now.

Lets be clear on one sure thing Lacy, reality is nondual. But if we are to claim we are the knower, then all I'm trying to get accross to you here, is that ONLY we are the ones responsible for what we know.

If pain and suffering is our creation, then why would we want to create that?

Is this too difficult to understand...it's all very simple for me.

The universe is a simple place, stars and planets just sit there in space and are very silent about it, it's all very simple way to be.

It's only humans that seem to want it all to be complicated.

If we know that pain and suffering is bad, and not really a good idea, why are being ok with this? That's all I'm asking ...

.

[Lacewing]

I'm absolutely fine here, as I've already mentioned this umpteen times already. Yep, I'm perfectly healthy and balanced here

Just full of hate, anger, contradictions, and wide mood swings.

So what's wrong with that?

What's wrong with anything?

Is there anything wrong or bad about what arises in sentient beings?

You've been saying so.

Have you ever felt anger, hate, the feeling of being contradictive, have you ever felt mood swings?

Sure! Although, not like the often long-term self-absorbed manic and extreme states you seem enraptured and tortured by.

Do these feelings sensations mean the person is unwell, unstable, unbalanced

Seems to be the case for you.

do these feelings make a person a bad person?

Depends, I suppose... but it doesn't seem like it makes them good.

do these feelings make a person a liar?

Lies make a person a liar, even if it's in the form of self-deception and denial.

What about if the person feeling these sensations, emotions and feelings is ok with them, but at the same time will be glad when they do not arise anymore, like when you are dead?

You're saying both -- you're not okay with them, and you are okay with them -- just as you hold and preach other contradictory views and claims which reveal your madness, which you sometimes acknowledge, and other times you say it's only what people see due to their "human conditioning".

Do you see where I am going with this?

I see where you've gone with it.

[Lacewing]

if we are to claim we are the knower, then all I'm trying to get accross to you here, is that ONLY we are the ones responsible for what we know.

If pain and suffering is our creation, then why would we want to create that?

Reasons probably vary -- but (according to you) if it's what you claim to know, you are the only one responsible for that, yes?

[Dontaskme]

Just full of hate, anger, contradictions, and wide mood swings.

So what's wrong with that?

What's wrong with anything?

Ok I'll try another approach...

Pain in my opinion is bad, it is wrong to say that pain is not a bad idea, pain is felt as an unpleasant sensation. A broken leg is not a good idea, try walking on a broken leg, the pain from trying to walk on a broken leg, is a hideous sensation.

This is not the same as having a mood swing, or being contradictive, or feeling angry, or feeling hatred for things, or being confused, upset or depressed, or feeling miserable.

When such emotions as anger, or hatred and all the other things I have mentioned arise in the body, the body is not in the same state of pain like the pain experienced when a screwdriver is embedded in your eyeball....emotions may cause a worrying anxiety or agitation...but not actual physical pain like I've described...and this is the pain I am referring to here.

Are we clear about this Lacewing?

Is there anything wrong or bad about what arises in sentient beings?

You've been saying so.

Yes, I said that pain is a bad idea. But I do not believe there is anything wrong with having the emotions I've described, which is not the same as the pain you get having a screwdriver embedded in your eyeball. And that's just one example of the pain I mean. There are many others, like being eaten half alive by a crocodile, do you think that would ok or wrong to experience being half eaten by a crocodile, or being shot by a gun, and then lying on the floor in a pool of blood and agony. Is it ok to have these experiences, or do you think it's wrong to have them, do you think it's not a very good idea to have them. . or are you ok about this and believe there is nothing wrong with being shot by a gun to the stomach and having to lie on the floor writhing in pain while gushing blood spills everywhere. Is this a good idea? is it ok to say there is nothing wrong with this experience?

Are we ok to want that sort of pain, is it ok to say there is nothing wrong with experiencing these experiences I've described?

This is the point I am trying to make...

[Dontaskme]

if we are to claim we are the knower, then all I'm trying to get accross to you here, is that ONLY we are the ones responsible for what we know.

If pain and suffering is our creation, then why would we want to create that?

Reasons probably vary -- but (according to you) if it's what you claim to know, you are the only one responsible for that, yes?

If I am the knower then yes, I am responsible for creating what I know....so all I'm saying to you is ...when I know that pain and suffering is not a good idea, I would also know I could stop being responsible for making more of it... by not imposing it on another human being by having a baby...right? ..

Would it be wrong to impose what I know through knowledge on another human being by having a baby, knowing that baby would also experience pain and suffering...or would it be ok to just have the baby, and there would be nothing wrong with that decision?

Are you with me so far?

[Dubious]

You're the one who wrote...

When men truly believe life is meaningless, they give themselves license to be monsters; and, they become fodder for other men pursuing power.

...talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I only corrected another piece of HQ/IC hypocrisy and stupdity as proven by history. But you and IC are theists of one kind or another which means whatever data history provides doesn't matter.

As always, Dub, you're right on target...

...so yes, I am right on target...and it was so easy to do!

Not yelling, just highlighting!

Never mind that the average schmo has no interest in persecutin' his neighbor

Would that include the average schmo who doesn't even bother to think whether there's any meaning to life and just gets on with it?

(and: never mind that these leaders are usually twistoids who ought not ever hold any power, over any one, at any time).

Does that include your hero Trump the Demented, who, if he considers it expedient, would just as easily shit on the heads of all his worshipers and praise him even more for having been worthy of such a blessing?

[Dubious]

As for suffering, there are many ways to die painlessly.

Is that true? From what I've read the only way to die painlessly, meaning without trauma, is to die in one's sleep. Of course, some ways are less painful than others, but none are qualified to be without pain of some sort. The only other way I know is euthanasia, but that requires medical assistance. So, as a matter of interest, what are some of the ways to die painlessly committed as a thoroughly private event?

[henry quirk]

Would that include the average schmo who doesn't even bother to think whether there's any meaning to life and just gets on with it?

Are you such a person?

[Dubious]

Again, you're the one who wrote...

Never mind that the average schmo has no interest in persecutin' his neighbor

To which, in context, the logical response would be...
Would that include the average schmo who doesn't even bother to think whether there's any meaning to life and just gets on with it?

...to which you reply:

Are you such a person?

Whether I am or not really has nothing to do with it. The question is what it is! Why not just respond to a very normal question in response to your statement. That's what debate is all about.

[henry quirk]

DAM wrote:If we know that pain and suffering is bad, and not really a good idea, why are being ok with this? That's all I'm asking ...

Cuz, most people, most of the time, prefer livin' to oblivion; cuz most people, most of the time, have reasons to live. They have goals, agendas, hopes, dreams, intentions, purposes, meaning. Most people aren't nihilists.

In other words: most folks want to be alive, see value in livin', perhaps see value in the struggles that are a natural part of livin'. Most folks wanna put off their end points to as far down the road as possible...not cuz they fear death, but becuz they love livin'.

Now, accordin' to that stellar organization, the world health organization, 700,000 off themselves yearly (that's a global figure). That's a grievous number, but, in comparison to a growin' world population that's currently almost 8 billion, it's a blip. That's .08 percent of the population who choose to off themselves compared to the other 99.92 who choose to live, many who fight every day to live against odds firmly stacked against them.

I'm not one to make appeals to the wisdom of the crowd, but I have to wonder: what are the odds that billions are wrong and you're right?

[Dubious]

If we know that pain and suffering is bad, and not really a good idea, why are being ok with this? That's all I'm asking ...

Cuz, most people, most of the time, prefer livin' to oblivion; cuz most people, most of the time, have reasons to live. They have goals, agendas, hopes, dreams, intentions, purposes, meaning. Most people aren't nihilists.

In other words: most folks want to be alive, see value in livin', perhaps see value in the struggles that are a natural part of livin'. Most folks wanna put off their end points to as far down the road as possible...not cuz they fear death, but becuz they love livin'.

Now, accordin' to that stellar organization, the world health organization, 700,000 off themselves yearly (that's a global figure). That's a grievous number, but, in comparison to a growin' world population that's currently almost 8 billion, it's a blip. That's .08 percent of the population who choose to off themselves compared to the other 99.92 who choose to live, many who fight every day to live against odds firmly stacked against them.

I'm not one to make appeals to the wisdom of the crowd, but I have to wonder: what are the odds that billions are wrong and you're right?

Who are you talking to? I have no idea what you're talking about or how it refers to anything I said or you said.

[henry quirk]

If we know that pain and suffering is bad, and not really a good idea, why are being ok with this? That's all I'm asking ...

Cuz, most people, most of the time, prefer livin' to oblivion; cuz most people, most of the time, have reasons to live. They have goals, agendas, hopes, dreams, intentions, purposes, meaning. Most people aren't nihilists.

In other words: most folks want to be alive, see value in livin', perhaps see value in the struggles that are a natural part of livin'. Most folks wanna put off their end points to as far down the road as possible...not cuz they fear death, but becuz they love livin'.

Now, accordin' to that stellar organization, the world health organization, 700,000 off themselves yearly (that's a global figure). That's a grievous number, but, in comparison to a growin' world population that's currently almost 8 billion, it's a blip. That's .08 percent of the population who choose to off themselves compared to the other 99.92 who choose to live, many who fight every day to live against odds firmly stacked against them.

I'm not one to make appeals to the wisdom of the crowd, but I have to wonder: what are the odds that billions are wrong and you're right?

Who are you talking to? I have no idea what you're talking about or how it refers to anything I said or you said.

that's for DAM, not you

your answer is comin'

[henry quirk]

I thought we might play a bit, but you're so eager, so...

Would that include the average schmo who doesn't even bother to think whether there's any meaning to life and just gets on with it?

The average schmo thinks about meaning. There's no such thing as a person who isn't interested in meaning ('cept for the true nihilists who are sociopaths).

Now, make sumthin' of that...if you can.

[Dubious]

If we know that pain and suffering is bad, and not really a good idea, why are being ok with this? That's all I'm asking ...

Cuz, most people, most of the time, prefer livin' to oblivion; cuz most people, most of the time, have reasons to live. They have goals, agendas, hopes, dreams, intentions, purposes, meaning. Most people aren't nihilists.

In other words: most folks want to be alive, see value in livin', perhaps see value in the struggles that are a natural part of livin'. Most folks wanna put off their end points to as far down the road as possible...not cuz they fear death, but becuz they love livin'.

Now, accordin' to that stellar organization, the world health organization, 700,000 off themselves yearly (that's a global figure). That's a grievous number, but, in comparison to a growin' world population that's currently almost 8 billion, it's a blip. That's .08 percent of the population who choose to off themselves compared to the other 99.92 who choose to live, many who fight every day to live against odds firmly stacked against them.

I'm not one to make appeals to the wisdom of the crowd, but I have to wonder: what are the odds that billions are wrong and you're right?

Who are you talking to? I have no idea what you're talking about or how it refers to anything I said or you said.

that's for DAM, not you

your answer is comin'

Take your time; still no answer

[henry quirk]

I thought we might play a bit, but you're so eager, so...

Would that include the average schmo who doesn't even bother to think whether there's any meaning to life and just gets on with it?

The average schmo thinks about meaning. There's no such thing as a person who isn't interested in meaning ('cept for the true nihilists who are sociopaths).

Now, make sumthin' of that...if you can.