Religion is Man- Made

[henry quirk]

Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen. -Richard Lewontin, evolutionary biologist & atheist (RIP)

...an unabashed admission that it's not evidence, or scientific method, that demands materialism and atheism but instead: an absolute devotion to materialism and its sibling, atheism demands a sterile, amoral Reality.

We don't follow the evidence: we only accept evidence that supports our view.

[Dubious]

The point is simple: true or not, it's entirely irrelevant to the truthfulness of the argument/opinion/information in question.

...technically you're right...

Yep.

oh wait, here's some more...

[Age]

All I want is for the pain, and suffering in the world to stop. Especially the suffering of animals, but how can we make it stop, we can’t can we?

I just want it all to stop.

As I see it, all you can do, is to make the pain stop inside yourself (by understanding who suffers and what causes suffering) - that is good enough.
There is no need to heal the world, only heal yourself.
Its like being in an aeroplane - you are in an emergency - the oxygen masks drop out of the ceiling - you FIRST put a mask on yourself. Once this has been accomplished, then ask the question if the world still needs healing - and if so, how you can work towards this goal without adding further suffering to the world (as all suffering is internal - within thought - also your own internal suffering adds to the suffering of the world)
Also, don't mistake physical pain for suffering: pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional.

Now this last sentence is presented in a much more succinct way, compared to how I was wording it.

[Age]

If its only a truth about the speaker then there must be a reason why it is true.

The point is simple: true or not, it's entirely irrelevant to the truthfulness of the argument/opinion/information in question.

No doubt that's what you believe and technically you're right...again, up to a point. But if it's within the nature of one's character to obfuscate, distort and completely ignore valid questions as you've done through all through your prolific posts and continue to in spite of being told by many then obviously, by any criteria, the speaker has a major credibility gap in whatever he or she says.

If debate is a type of mental sport and sports invariably have rules, you would be disqualified from any supervised debate in the first 15 minutes.

But if obfuscation was a type of mental sport, then instead of being disqualified in the first 15 minutes "immanuel can" would be the outright winner, well within this forum at least.

Again I noticed there is no reply to the question posed; what is the fate of the religious of the world whose version of divinity or exceptionality may incorporate Jesus as only one instance of such an entity? Hinduism or Islam for instance. Even Buddhism, which is more a philosophy of redemption than a true religion.

"immanuel can" may be completely incapable of reply directly to this question posed, but the True, Right, and Correct answer is OBVIOUS.

Can't blame you for not responding. There is no logic to justify your conviction that only belief in Jesus can save. To counter that is nearly impossible without yielding to the belief that any such belief itself is absurd...in which case there is no argument; all duplicity no-longer necessary.

"immanuel can" can NOT respond to a lot of clarifying questions posed to what they say because if they did OPENLY and Honestly, then they would HAVE TO CONTRADICT what they have previously said and stated was true.

[Age]

The point is simple: true or not, it's entirely irrelevant to the truthfulness of the argument/opinion/information in question.

...technically you're right...

Yep.

But morally and justifiably 'you' are NOT.

[Age]

Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural.

But there is NO "real" struggle between ANY ACTUAL thing.

Thee ONLY 'struggle' that Truly exists is between the what ACTUALLY EXISTS and the way 'you', human beings, LOOK AT 'that'.

We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.

If that is what 'you', human beings, do, then I suggest 'you' do OTHERWISE.

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen. -Richard Lewontin, evolutionary biologist & atheist (RIP)

...an unabashed admission that it's not evidence, or scientific method, that demands materialism and atheism but instead: an absolute devotion to materialism and its sibling, atheism demands a sterile, amoral Reality.

We don't follow the evidence: we only accept evidence that supports our view.

And this is WHY I suggest to NEVER hold onto a view as though it is true, right, and/or correct unless, OF COURSE, thee ACTUAL PROOF for that view has ALREADY been obtained.

[Dontaskme]

liar

your lunacy

miseries like you.


your garbage

You're a bad person

the equally loony

the equally bad

OK, fair enough, you are entiled to make that judgement of my character, but know that how I am perceived by you there, has no impact on this one here, because only I know the real truth of my character, and that is my power.

But thanks for the harsh critisism, your displeasures and grievances. Water off a ducks back.

[Dontaskme]

9B7F38E1-E3AB-4E13-91D3-5773EA1D448A.jpeg
...yeah, I'm talkin' to you.

Sentimental garbage, human wishful thinking at best. Weak minded.

Reality: You have NO power. Not a jot.

Only the brave, the strong and the intelligent see the hell that is sentient life for what it really is.

You're sentimental mush is hopeless. . nice try, but you lose again. Every body loses. . in the end.

[Dontaskme]

Also, don't mistake physical pain for suffering: pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional.

Thanks for the cliché Alex.

I used to say things like that to myself all the time, but then one day, I just suddenly got hit with the reality of it all. It's real, suffering is real, it's really happening. It's not something that can be ignored in the hope it will go away, suppression is futile.

Pain and suffering come as one whole package, they cannot be separated out. To believe they can is a form of mindless denial.
I really believe that the majority of people simply cannot handle the real truth of their life situation, insofar as they will do and say just about anything to support it, and deny it's hopeless futilty. It's as though, their fame, their successes, their money and wealth is what gives them their sense of security and well being, it's like a distraction from what's really happening, it's like they refuse to accept the reality for what it is.
Then there's that other silly old wifes tale that pain is good for you. But for me, this was seen as more denial as to the true nature of what it means to be a sentient feeling being.

So that is why I was instinctively drawn to 'Nonduality' from a very young age, around 6 - 7 years old, because this knowledge was my only defence mechanism against what I innately knew in my own mind, and that was life was a very cruel deal. Nonduality became my only refuge.

I latched on very early in life a stark knowing that this journey that I was about to embark on was indeed going to be one hell of a bumpy ride. I instinctively knew also that there was absolutely nothing that I could ever do about this awful realisation. I was very aware of my surroundings, too aware, I would notice things that others seemed oblivious to, I could never understand how others just seemed to miss what I could see so plainly and clearly.

Nonduality was my way of blocking it out, but in the end, I realised I was only fooling myself to think this could be blocked out, because it can't, it can only be endured. But what Nonduality did confirm for me, is that no one is responsible for the carnage that is sentient life. So I guess that was a relief to discover there wasn't any thing that could claim, or take blame or be shamed for this mess. That's when I knew it's all mindless.

Anyways, just rambling again....like I do.

PS...I guess in the end Alex, what I did do is I stopped pretending that lifes a good deal, it was very liberating. Facing reality for what it actually is, and not what people wishfully want it to be. I stopped pretending, and that's when I became as real as real could be.

[Belinda]

All I want is for the pain, and suffering in the world to stop. Especially the suffering of animals, but how can we make it stop, we can’t can we?

I just want it all to stop.

As I see it, all you can do, is to make the pain stop inside yourself (by understanding who suffers and what causes suffering) - that is good enough.
There is no need to heal the world, only heal yourself.
Its like being in an aeroplane - you are in an emergency - the oxygen masks drop out of the ceiling - you FIRST put a mask on yourself. Once this has been accomplished, then ask the question if the world still needs healing - and if so, how you can work towards this goal without adding further suffering to the world (as all suffering is internal - within thought - also your own internal suffering adds to the suffering of the world)
Also, don't mistake physical pain for suffering: pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional.

What DAM said is like the oxygen mask. The oxygen of pity.

[Dontaskme]

The oxygen of pity.

That there is even the very idea of pity in the world is deserving of pity. It's a pitiful dilemma.

[AlexW]

I used to say things like that to myself all the time, but then one day, I just suddenly got hit with the reality of it all. It's real, suffering is real, it's really happening. It's not something that can be ignored in the hope it will go away, suppression is futile.

Pain and suffering come as one whole package, they cannot be separated out. To believe they can is a form of mindless denial.

Well... I am not so sure about that - at least it worked differently for me...

Years ago I went through some pretty intense psychological suffering (I wouldn't call it pain, as I would rather reserve the word for physical sensations).
This suffering first paralysed me, then, in some effort to survive, drove me to find a solution... it felt like drowning while clinging on to whatever piece of floating device one might find... but nothing seemed to work... until I started to honestly investigate the suffering itself. Where does it come from, who is the one that suffers etc etc... as you can surely appreciate, this kind of investigation has the potential to take one on a "spiritual journey" which, in my case, ended with the experience and realisation of "no-self" (for a lack of a better word...).
I hoped this would be the end of suffering, but alas, it was not so... one realisation - if not lived and integrated fully (especially being permanently aware of ones thoughts) - it is not more than another trophy in the cabinet of spiritual achievements (not worth much more than the plastic its made from).
Living with physical pain (for some years now) taught me this lesson. At first I suffered from the pain, then, again, I investigated it, found it to be not much different to many other physical sensation - what really made it unbearable was actually not the sensation but the accompanying thoughts.
Thoughts of suffering, of how bad the pain is, how debilitating, how nothing, not even painkillers, seemed to work to stop it. Yet, once becoming more and more aware of the thoughts of suffering, they gradually resided and with them, also the pain became less debilitating (in a small way, it felt like when I had a motorbike accident - some 5 years ago. I broke too many bones to mention, in the ambulance they gave me some kind of morphine injection and the pain... well... it didn't vanish, I could still feel it... yet, the thoughts of suffering vanished and with it the "problem").

Now, after telling you this story, I hope you understand better where I am coming from. Yes, pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional, sounds like a pretty dumb thing to say - our history of "suffering pain" seem to be proof against it - yet, once you subtract all thoughts from the pain, the suffering simply vanishes (no matter how intense the pain). Of course, with intense pain happening, its not unlikely that thoughts of suffering will arise, yet, it will diminish and eventually vanish as soon as these thoughts are seen for what they are and caught as soon as they arise.

I guess in the end Alex, what I did do is I stopped pretending that lifes a good deal, it was very liberating. Facing reality for what it actually is, and not what people wishfully want it to be. I stopped pretending, and that's when I became as real as real could be.

I guess thats all we can do - be real, live in reality and not in hopeful ideas. Thats also why I think that "hope" - as much as it is seen as one of the best things mankind has to offer - is actually a curse. You hope in fear for something to happen or not to happen - it leads to suffering and destroys life which is always best lived here/now.

[Dontaskme]

Now, after telling you this story, I hope you understand better where I am coming from. Yes, pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional, sounds like a pretty dumb thing to say - our history of "suffering pain" seem to be proof against it - yet, once you subtract all thoughts from the pain, the suffering simply vanishes (no matter how intense the pain). Of course, with intense pain happening, its not unlikely that thoughts of suffering will arise, yet, it will diminish and eventually vanish as soon as these thoughts are seen for what they are and caught as soon as they arise.

Thanks for sharing the story that is your experience of pain.

It still doesn't convince me that life is worth the price we pay for it.

I wouldn't want to live my life all over again knowing what I know now, not ever. But no one has the choice to be born. We do have the choice not to impose the unborn to this painful life, but for the unborn, there is zero choice or consent. I just don't think we have the right to drag new life into the world knowing what we know about it, just because we say it's ok, just because we think it's worth it.

We have the intelligence to realise that what we have to experience is not a good idea, and that we can stop it any time we like. Once again I have to repeat, it seems we are ok with pain and suffering, we are ok with making more of it, we love our pain and suffering. And to me, that's really really dumb, but then other people might think my opinion is dumb, so having any opinion at all about the experience of what it is to be alive is hopeless.

Also, to say that pain is unavoidable, but suffering is optional, is like saying: eating a strawberry chocolate cupcake is not an enjoyable experience, the enjoyment is purely optional. It's irrational, because a cupcake is usually very enjoyable. It's like saying, an orgasm is unavoidable, but the pleasure is optional. The point is, people make up all kinds of crap to justify life for sentient creatures is a good idea, when it's plainly gross and extremely crude and the result of mindless dumb forces beyond any things control. The dinosaur era proved this fact. Millions and millions of years of useless carnage. Humanity then showed up a few seconds ago in relation to how long sentient life has been occurring, and as if by magic, suddenly everything is perfect and sweet and worth it. Everything is known, and we've got it all figured out...and yet no one has ever been alive before, but they seem to know truth.

We invented our knowledge, we made up reasons and meaning, and it is this knowledge that seems to be our only saving grace, except for the word extinction, that seems to be the hardest word to understand, it's like the dirty word.. so be it.

.

[Age]

Also, don't mistake physical pain for suffering: pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional.

Thanks for the cliché Alex.

I used to say things like that to myself all the time, but then one day, I just suddenly got hit with the reality of it all. It's real, suffering is real, it's really happening. It's not something that can be ignored in the hope it will go away, suppression is futile.

Pain and suffering come as one whole package, they cannot be separated out. To believe they can is a form of mindless denial.

This body can injure itself, and 'pain' exist, but there certainly does NOT HAVE TO BE ANY 'suffering' AT ALL.

Pain is just pain. There certainly does NOT have to be ANY 'suffering' associated with that.

If the thumb of that body is hit with a hammer, would 'you' ALWAYS go instantly into 'suffering', and remain 'suffering' for EVERY moment there is some sort of 'pain' existing in that thumb?

I really believe that the majority of people simply cannot handle the real truth of their life situation, insofar as they will do and say just about anything to support it, and deny it's hopeless futilty.

Of course 'you', people, are in DENIAL of thee ACTUAL Truth sometimes. There is NO doubt about this, but what is this 'hopeless futility' perspective in relation to, EXACTLY?

It's as though, their fame, their successes, their money and wealth is what gives them their sense of security and well being, it's like a distraction from what's really happening, it's like they refuse to accept the reality for what it is.

Of course 'you', adult human beings, use fame, success, money, and wealth for some sort of security and well being, at times, but this is ONLY because of the DISHONESTY and ABUSE that 'you' were born into and brought up in, however, what is REALLY happening, and, what is the REALITY, as IT IS?

Then there's that other silly old wifes tale that pain is good for you.

That is just a saying used by adult beings to 'try to' "justify" their abusive behaviors upon "others", especially upon children.

But for me, this was seen as more denial as to the true nature of what it means to be a sentient feeling being.

So, what IS the 'true nature' of what it means to be a sentient feeling being?

So that is why I was instinctively drawn to 'Nonduality' from a very young age, around 6 - 7 years old, because this knowledge was my only defence mechanism against what I innately knew in my own mind, and that was life was a very cruel deal.

COULD, what ACTUALLY BE, is that your OWN experiences, especially in childhood, were VERY CRUEL, and that has left you LOOKING AT and SEEING Life, Itself, as being VERY CRUEL?

Nonduality became my only refuge.

So, is this WHY 'you' are ADDICTED to the nonduality story, which you have made YOUR STORY?

I latched on very early in life a stark knowing that this journey that I was about to embark on was indeed going to be one hell of a bumpy ride.

Have you noticed that 'you' and "lacewing" are more or less in the EXACT SAME situation or circumstances?

I instinctively knew also that there was absolutely nothing that I could ever do about this awful realisation.

Well, as a child, OF COURSE there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that you could do in relation to what period or country/culture that body was born into and was brought up in. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING a child can do to STOP the ABUSE that it HAS TO ENDURE, and has to LEARN TO SURVIVE IN the best way it can. BUT, as an adult, there is NOTHING ELSE you can BLAME. A Truly responsible adult is RESPONSIBLE for ALL of the thinking, thoughts, and internal feelings/emotions within the body and EVERY mis/behavior of the body.

As an Truly responsible adult there is NO use in complaining, and there is ACTUALLY A LOT you can do to CHANGE and MAKE the 'world' a MUCH BETTER PLACE for ALL CHILDREN, forever more.

You just need to discover, or learn, and understand HOW to do this, and then just do what it takes to make this happen. I have ALREADY EXPLAINED HOW this is possible, and ACTUALLY WILL come to fruition.

I was very aware of my surroundings, too aware, I would notice things that others seemed oblivious to, I could never understand how others just seemed to miss what I could see so plainly and clearly.

Have you worked it out?

WHY 'you' could do that, and they" could NOT, is VERY OBVIOUS.

Nonduality was my way of blocking it out, but in the end, I realised I was only fooling myself to think this could be blocked out, because it can't, it can only be endured. But what Nonduality did confirm for me, is that no one is responsible for the carnage that is sentient life. So I guess that was a relief to discover there wasn't any thing that could claim, or take blame or be shamed for this mess. That's when I knew it's all mindless.

But it is you adults who have CAUSED and are CREATING 'the mess'.

The reason WHY you SEE that adults are NOT to be blamed for 'this mess' is mostly because of the WAY that 'you' were abused as a child, and, partly because 'you' are an adult, "yourself", now.

Anyways, just rambling again....like I do.

When one has been abused the way you had, and as much as you had, then it HAS TO come out and be released somewhere, at sometime.

PS...I guess in the end Alex, what I did do is I stopped pretending that lifes a good deal, it was very liberating. Facing reality for what it actually is, and not what people wishfully want it to be. I stopped pretending, and that's when I became as real as real could be.

We will have to wait, and see.

[Age]

I used to say things like that to myself all the time, but then one day, I just suddenly got hit with the reality of it all. It's real, suffering is real, it's really happening. It's not something that can be ignored in the hope it will go away, suppression is futile.

Pain and suffering come as one whole package, they cannot be separated out. To believe they can is a form of mindless denial.

Well... I am not so sure about that - at least it worked differently for me...

Years ago I went through some pretty intense psychological suffering (I wouldn't call it pain, as I would rather reserve the word for physical sensations).
This suffering first paralysed me, then, in some effort to survive, drove me to find a solution... it felt like drowning while clinging on to whatever piece of floating device one might find... but nothing seemed to work... until I started to honestly investigate the suffering itself. Where does it come from, who is the one that suffers etc etc... as you can surely appreciate, this kind of investigation has the potential to take one on a "spiritual journey" which, in my case, ended with the experience and realisation of "no-self" (for a lack of a better word...).
I hoped this would be the end of suffering, but alas, it was not so... one realisation - if not lived and integrated fully (especially being permanently aware of ones thoughts) - it is not more than another trophy in the cabinet of spiritual achievements (not worth much more than the plastic its made from).
Living with physical pain (for some years now) taught me this lesson. At first I suffered from the pain, then, again, I investigated it, found it to be not much different to many other physical sensation - what really made it unbearable was actually not the sensation but the accompanying thoughts.
Thoughts of suffering, of how bad the pain is, how debilitating, how nothing, not even painkillers, seemed to work to stop it. Yet, once becoming more and more aware of the thoughts of suffering, they gradually resided and with them, also the pain became less debilitating (in a small way, it felt like when I had a motorbike accident - some 5 years ago. I broke too many bones to mention, in the ambulance they gave me some kind of morphine injection and the pain... well... it didn't vanish, I could still feel it... yet, the thoughts of suffering vanished and with it the "problem").

Once becoming AWARE of the thoughts, which are always coming and going within the body, and NOTICING them more and more, is VERY ENLIGHTENING in the spiritual journey.

Now, after telling you this story, I hope you understand better where I am coming from. Yes, pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional, sounds like a pretty dumb thing to say - our history of "suffering pain" seem to be proof against it - yet, once you subtract all thoughts from the pain, the suffering simply vanishes (no matter how intense the pain).

EVERY thing, in relation to human beings, is CONTROLLED through thought.

Of course, with intense pain happening, its not unlikely that thoughts of suffering will arise, yet, it will diminish and eventually vanish as soon as these thoughts are seen for what they are and caught as soon as they arise.

Yes, catching thoughts during their rise, BEFORE they take over, and control, is the sign of how thee Truly responsible One is growing, maturing, or is just evolving past the human being stage of Existence, and into the next stage of evolving into KNOWING Thy Self.

I guess in the end Alex, what I did do is I stopped pretending that lifes a good deal, it was very liberating. Facing reality for what it actually is, and not what people wishfully want it to be. I stopped pretending, and that's when I became as real as real could be.

I guess thats all we can do - be real, live in reality and not in hopeful ideas. Thats also why I think that "hope" - as much as it is seen as one of the best things mankind has to offer - is actually a curse. You hope in fear for something to happen or not to happen - it leads to suffering and destroys life which is always best lived here/now.