Understanding the religious mindset

[henry quirk]

Does this idea of "purpose" have to be long-term, or can it be moment-to-moment?

Whims are moment-to-moment.

When you stand up from a chair, the "purpose" might be to go to the bathroom. That's not a whim.
When you pick up a pen, the "purpose" might be to write.
Especially as we can see in nature, there doesn't have to be any greater purpose than what is essentially divined or created from one moment to the next. Things are moving and flowing for reasons -- not by chance. That does not indicate a greater purpose.

A human's idea of purpose is for a human life. Such does not need to be applied to all else.
The Universe is not necessarily or even likely designed around humans and the limited way they think. There was a long time that humans weren't even on the Earth... they've been wiped out many times by nature... and there's no logical reason to believe that they are the pinnacle of all the creation they're aware of.

What is the purpose of a vast Universe of countless galaxies that we don't even occupy or need?
What was the purpose of the Earth long before we arrived on it?

Perhaps the problem for human beings is that we tend to think there's no value without purpose. Yet, "purpose" is made up. People have countless ideas about it. And even as we live our lives, many may see little or no point to life even if they want to imagine a greater purpose. It is possible to live a fulfilling life without imagining a greater purpose... so clearly, it's not needed. And since no one has or will be able to prove there's a greater purpose, what difference does it make? It's all just belief/imagination/claims at this point... and people don't seem to excel in/with life simply based on that. Actually, they may use such beliefs/claims as an excuse for "not living" their life more fully (or gratefully) while they have it, because they're waiting for the greater purpose which is to come. How much sense does that make?

As I say...

In a universe 93 billion light years across, mostly empty but for a smattering of matter (most of which is just electrons doin’ the tango with protons); in this vast empty place where organized matter is so rare as to make hydrogen ho-hum; in this Reality where living matter - insofar as we know - even rarer still, has spread out over the surface of one little dynamic rock and has given rise to remarkable self-directing, self-aware matter; in the midst of all this escalating specialness, two discrete parcels of matter are stalemated on the essential nature of the individual.

No matter the scale: we are special. Even more so: each of us is special. In this big old, mostly empty, universe, there’s only one of each of us (so much the same, so much not the same).

There’s your ‘magic’, plain as the nose on your face, and that there is fact, not feeling.

[Belinda]

Whims are moment-to-moment.

When you stand up from a chair, the "purpose" might be to go to the bathroom. That's not a whim.
When you pick up a pen, the "purpose" might be to write.
Especially as we can see in nature, there doesn't have to be any greater purpose than what is essentially divined or created from one moment to the next. Things are moving and flowing for reasons -- not by chance. That does not indicate a greater purpose.

A human's idea of purpose is for a human life. Such does not need to be applied to all else.
The Universe is not necessarily or even likely designed around humans and the limited way they think. There was a long time that humans weren't even on the Earth... they've been wiped out many times by nature... and there's no logical reason to believe that they are the pinnacle of all the creation they're aware of.

What is the purpose of a vast Universe of countless galaxies that we don't even occupy or need?
What was the purpose of the Earth long before we arrived on it?

Perhaps the problem for human beings is that we tend to think there's no value without purpose. Yet, "purpose" is made up. People have countless ideas about it. And even as we live our lives, many may see little or no point to life even if they want to imagine a greater purpose. It is possible to live a fulfilling life without imagining a greater purpose... so clearly, it's not needed. And since no one has or will be able to prove there's a greater purpose, what difference does it make? It's all just belief/imagination/claims at this point... and people don't seem to excel in/with life simply based on that. Actually, they may use such beliefs/claims as an excuse for "not living" their life more fully (or gratefully) while they have it, because they're waiting for the greater purpose which is to come. How much sense does that make?

As I say...

In a universe 93 billion light years across, mostly empty but for a smattering of matter (most of which is just electrons doin’ the tango with protons); in this vast empty place where organized matter is so rare as to make hydrogen ho-hum; in this Reality where living matter - insofar as we know - even rarer still, has spread out over the surface of one little dynamic rock and has given rise to remarkable self-directing, self-aware matter; in the midst of all this escalating specialness, two discrete parcels of matter are stalemated on the essential nature of the individual.

No matter the scale: we are special. Even more so: each of us is special. In this big old, mostly empty, universe, there’s only one of each of us (so much the same, so much not the same).

There’s your ‘magic’, plain as the nose on your face, and that there is fact, not feeling.

I purpose this and that, just as do Henry, Lacewing, and all other reasonable beings. Reasonable beings are a minute fraction of all the beings that ever existed since time began and the huge majority these beings have been and are unreasoning beings.

In what way are we reasonable beings special? Is reason itself special? Are we special because we (and probably some of the more reasoning animals)are self aware? Are men special because we can be devils incarnate and often are?

[Atla]

Keep in mind, Lacewing, that according to Atla, you are clueless and beneath him when it comes to intelligence, and he is just trolling you for the fun of it.

Hmm. I don't know if that's what Atla thinks...

Well "atla" OBVIOUSLY said it.

Why the hell would I do that? I'm just picking on the lunatics.

And in case you didn't notice Age, I picked on you in a way which made you more or less reveal what you actually believe in. Was just curious that maybe you do actually have something new to stay. But everything you said so far, I've already considered before as a possibility.

[seeds]

Keep in mind, Lacewing, that according to Atla, you are clueless and beneath him when it comes to intelligence, and he is just trolling you for the fun of it.

Hmm. I don't know if that's what Atla thinks...

Well "atla" OBVIOUSLY said it.

Why the hell would I do that? I'm just picking on the lunatics.

Hmmm, let's see about that...

I have long suspected that I'm the only person left on this forum who is both intelligent and has a clue, but now I'm finally completely certain of it...

Seems like a pretty broad brush to me, and not just directed at the lunatics.
_______

[seeds]

Keep in mind, Lacewing, that according to Atla, you are clueless and beneath him when it comes to intelligence, and he is just trolling you for the fun of it.

Well if you really want to know, I'm 140-145 IQ range, which is considered borderline idiot. But I also seem to have some sort of acquired savantism which in my case seems to affect my abstract thinking (I can think with the unconscious brain which is kinda parallel and almost instantaneous, skipping "conscious thoughts" which almost all humans use). I've been called a genius many times throughout my life...

Yes, I'm sure that mom is very proud of her little man.

Unfortunately, even though you may indeed possess an IQ of 140-145, along with an acquired savantism, you nevertheless have been short-changed when it comes to simple common sense.

And that's because you seem to be utterly oblivious to the negative social ramifications of your comments as it relates to this...

Or, at the very least, they come-off as being preening little blowhards who make themselves look smaller and smaller with every self-aggrandizing boast.

Put down the "I'm the smartest person in the room" shovel, Atla, because you're just digging yourself into a deeper hole where people are compelled to look for (and point-out) your faults and delusions.

Furthermore, based on the following quote from an alternate thread,...

Took me a while to see clearly as well, and the form of nondualism I subscribe to may not even be that widespread, but I think it's "the" nondualism. Now of course the human ego is very much real in the sense that it's some kind of psychological structure in the human head, made of thoughts, emotions etc. What is illusory is the.. umm there is no good way to say it.. it's the illusion of the volitional, individual self-entity that "does" things, "has" things, and most importantly, "is or has consciousness somehow".

...it is obvious (to me, anyway) that you are trapped within a mental bubble (a "mindset") that is created from what seems to be your own unique interpretation of reality consisting of not just ordinary nondualism, but what you claim to be "the" nondualism.

Do you actually think that you've come up with something new?

I mean, the notion that a subjectively-based "self" (or "I Am-ness") is an illusion is not only as old as dirt, but it is also one of the most useless and counter-intuitive theories ever devised by, presumably, a subjectively-based "volitional self-entity."

Nondualism explains absolutely nothing in terms of how the unfathomable order of the universe came about.

Moreover, when it comes to everyday human needs and psychology, how would you use the concept of nondualism to comfort a mother who just lost a child to disease or accident?

The bottom line is that if you truly believe that if all of humanity were to understand what you (and only you) understand, then please explain to us how it would resolve the following issues:

• 1. In what way would it explain how the order of the universe was achieved?
  
  2. In what way would it provide the same kind of hope, comfort, and solace that billions of humans desperately need and derive from their respective religions?
  
  3. And lastly, in what way would it not simply be just another form of existential nihilism that suggests that there is no ultimate purpose to human life?

_______

[Atla]

Keep in mind, Lacewing, that according to Atla, you are clueless and beneath him when it comes to intelligence, and he is just trolling you for the fun of it.

Well if you really want to know, I'm 140-145 IQ range, which is considered borderline idiot. But I also seem to have some sort of acquired savantism which in my case seems to affect my abstract thinking (I can think with the unconscious brain which is kinda parallel and almost instantaneous, skipping "conscious thoughts" which almost all humans use). I've been called a genius many times throughout my life...

Yes, I'm sure that mom is very proud of her little man.

Unfortunately, even though you may indeed possess an IQ of 140-145, along with an acquired savantism, you nevertheless have been short-changed when it comes to simple common sense.

And that's because you seem to be utterly oblivious to the negative social ramifications of your comments as it relates to this...

Or, at the very least, they come-off as being preening little blowhards who make themselves look smaller and smaller with every self-aggrandizing boast.

Put down the "I'm the smartest person in the room" shovel, Atla, because you're just digging yourself into a deeper hole where people are compelled to look for (and point-out) your faults and delusions.

Furthermore, based on the following quote from an alternate thread,...

Took me a while to see clearly as well, and the form of nondualism I subscribe to may not even be that widespread, but I think it's "the" nondualism. Now of course the human ego is very much real in the sense that it's some kind of psychological structure in the human head, made of thoughts, emotions etc. What is illusory is the.. umm there is no good way to say it.. it's the illusion of the volitional, individual self-entity that "does" things, "has" things, and most importantly, "is or has consciousness somehow".

...it is obvious (to me, anyway) that you are trapped within a mental bubble (a "mindset") that is created from what seems to be your own unique interpretation of reality consisting of not just ordinary nondualism, but what you claim to be "the" nondualism.

Do you actually think that you've come up with something new?

I mean, the notion that a subjectively-based "self" (or "I Am-ness") is an illusion is not only as old as dirt, but it is also one of the most useless and counter-intuitive theories ever devised by, presumably, a subjectively-based "volitional self-entity."

Nondualism explains absolutely nothing in terms of how the unfathomable order of the universe came about.

Moreover, when it comes to everyday human needs and psychology, how would you use the concept of nondualism to comfort a mother who just lost a child to disease or accident?

The bottom line is that if you truly believe that if all of humanity were to understand what you (and only you) understand, then please explain to us how it would resolve the following issues:

• 1. In what way would it explain how the order of the universe was achieved?
  
  2. In what way would it provide the same kind of hope, comfort, and solace that billions of humans desperately need and derive from their respective religions?
  
  3. And lastly, in what way would it not simply be just another form of existential nihilism that suggests that there is no ultimate purpose to human life?

_______

Dude what the hell are you talking about?

If I say that this version of nondualism is not "as widespread", then I'm not saying that I'm the only one who understands it. I'd say I'm not even the only one on this forum.

OF COURSE nondualism explains absolutely nothing in terms of how the unfathomable order of the universe came about.

What does it have to do with everyday human psychological needs?

What you are saying is like: dual-aspect theory can't cure cancer, therefore how dare people suggest it?

[attofishpi]

Yes, it would be nice to think of God as a Goddess - when it has me in heaven at times and makes love to my entire being - indeed sexual ecstasy that it can 'inflict' is ...mmm... - but it appears the dude is Gay or at least bi after all -

You know what the coolest thing about atheism is? (Aside from making fun of theists, and then congratulating each other for it, with smug looks on our faces?

Smug looks on your faces? - I'd imagine you were born with one and at least since this is mostly text based as a forum, we don't have to look at your stupid facial expressions.

Interesting that the silly atheists as yourself (there are or at least have been, plenty of reasonable atheists that I have debated for 10yrs here, that stick rationally to the subject matter, without regurgitating words such as 'delusional' and 'fantasies' - but unfortunately, they left the forum since it became overun with stupid generational nutrionless fried chicken munching morons from the US - (I think you must be one of them).

You are not grounded in reasonable debate (a requirement on a philosophy forum), whether you agree with a concept or not, you should attack the nature of the opposition argument as to whether it is plausible, not think you actually have an ounce of wit and can just resort to being a troll, since actually - you are not funny - even if I also was an atheist, you just sound like a boring moron.

And then celebrating it all with a good ol' round of baby eating.

I'd imagine you'd deep fry that too.

To explain the mind-boggling improbability of our universe, atheists often end up believing in an infinite multiverse. (They try to support this belief with things like String theory, which has no experimental evidence going for it whatsoever.)

Now in an infinite multiverse, most universes are uninhabited, and some universes are inhabited by talking monkeys, who post nonsense on philosophy boards.

I know, so why don't you fuck off.

I'm 140-145 IQ range

That must be annoying having a ticket number where you have now got to queue behind at least another 139 people, what for your vaccine?
The fact that you cannot read your ticket number to discern whether in fact you are number 140, 141, 142, 143, 144 or 145 is testament to your lack of reading comprehension.
Nevermind, if they don't call any of those numbers after number 139, ask someone that is not an inbred from your particular neighbourhood-since they may be able to count beyond the number 139 and manage to add 6 more numbers -for the people called and inform you your ticket is now invalid (like your brain) - in which case, go walk back to your trailer, or go to the reception and ask for another number and ask the clerk precisely "What number do I Queue at, because I have difficulty reading numbers).

(Hey, I'm just trying to help ok?)

But I also seem to have some sort of acquired savantism which in my case seems to affect my abstract thinking

Ya, most of us, as you describe 'talking monkeys' don't consider an inability to read numbers off of a ticket number as 'abstract' thinking, but why don't you start a thread and educate us all, prove you have indeed something of some savant quality. (because as a self admitted TROLL of 'theists', you are pretty fucking witless, rather repetitive and extremely boring.)

I've been called a genius many times throughout my life.

Was this after you worked out how to record your own voice and play it back to yourself? (many many times)

I've finished unifying all scientific knowledge save the unimportant details some 5-10 years ago, now I just have to keep up-to-date. I usually run 5-6 dimensional universe simulations in my mind to try to figure out the best explanation for why we are here. The best we humans can do is use Occam's razor, but you guys aren't even using it for your theories.

Occam's razor - is that ALL ya got!!! FFS.

[Atla]

Yes, it would be nice to think of God as a Goddess - when it has me in heaven at times and makes love to my entire being - indeed sexual ecstasy that it can 'inflict' is ...mmm... - but it appears the dude is Gay or at least bi after all -

You know what the coolest thing about atheism is? (Aside from making fun of theists, and then congratulating each other for it, with smug looks on our faces?

Smug looks on your faces? - I'd imagine you were born with one and at least since this is mostly text based as a forum, we don't have to look at your stupid facial expressions.

Interesting that the silly atheists as yourself (there are or at least have been, plenty of reasonable atheists that I have debated for 10yrs here, that stick rationally to the subject matter, without regurgitating words such as 'delusional' and 'fantasies' - but unfortunately, they left the forum since it became overun with stupid generational nutrionless fried chicken munching morons from the US - (I think you must be one of them).

You are not grounded in reasonable debate (a requirement on a philosophy forum), whether you agree with a concept or not, you should attack the nature of the opposition argument as to whether it is plausible, not think you actually have an ounce of wit and can just resort to being a troll, since actually - you are not funny - even if I also was an atheist, you just sound like a boring moron.

And then celebrating it all with a good ol' round of baby eating.

I'd imagine you'd deep fry that too.

To explain the mind-boggling improbability of our universe, atheists often end up believing in an infinite multiverse. (They try to support this belief with things like String theory, which has no experimental evidence going for it whatsoever.)

Now in an infinite multiverse, most universes are uninhabited, and some universes are inhabited by talking monkeys, who post nonsense on philosophy boards.

I know, so why don't you fuck off.

I'm 140-145 IQ range

That must be annoying having a ticket number where you have now got to queue behind at least another 139 people, what for your vaccine?
The fact that you cannot read your ticket number to discern whether in fact you are number 140, 141, 142, 143, 144 or 145 is testament to your lack of reading comprehension.
Nevermind, if they don't call any of those numbers after number 139, ask someone that is not an inbred from your particular neighbourhood-since they may be able to count beyond the number 139 and manage to add 6 more numbers -for the people called and inform you your ticket is now invalid (like your brain) - in which case, go walk back to your trailer, or go to the reception and ask for another number and ask the clerk precisely "What number do I Queue at, because I have difficulty reading numbers).

(Hey, I'm just trying to help ok?)

But I also seem to have some sort of acquired savantism which in my case seems to affect my abstract thinking

Ya, most of us, as you describe 'talking monkeys' don't consider an inability to read numbers off of a ticket number as 'abstract' thinking, but why don't you start a thread and educate us all, prove you have indeed something of some savant quality. (because as a self admitted TROLL of 'theists', you are pretty fucking witless, rather repetitive and extremely boring.)

I've been called a genius many times throughout my life.

Was this after you worked out how to record your own voice and play it back to yourself? (many many times)

I've finished unifying all scientific knowledge save the unimportant details some 5-10 years ago, now I just have to keep up-to-date. I usually run 5-6 dimensional universe simulations in my mind to try to figure out the best explanation for why we are here. The best we humans can do is use Occam's razor, but you guys aren't even using it for your theories.

Occam's razor - is that ALL ya got!!! FFS.

But this is all just butthurt crying coming from you, after I succesfully attacked the nature of your argument by pointing out that you just went through one or more textbook psychotic breaks. It happens all the time, you aren't that special.

[attofishpi]

"boo-hoo mommy tell me i'm a genius instead of this tape recorder," says Atla to the one that remains in the trailer (btw it's your older sister!)

[Lacewing]

...insofar as we know...

...that there is fact...

Do you think it's sound logic to believe certain ideas without asking/answering the questions that wouldn't readily support it?

[Atla]

"boo-hoo mommy tell me i'm a genius instead of this tape recorder," says Atla to the one that remains in the trailer (btw it's your older sister!)

Now a tough person would try to come to terms with the facts: that you haven't been contacted, controlled and raped by God for 20 years, but it's something else in your own brain, that's behind all this. In a sense, it's "you".

[henry quirk]

...insofar as we know...

...that there is fact...

Do you think it's sound logic to believe certain ideas without asking/answering the questions that wouldn't readily support it?

You mean like the dark matter/dark energy no one can measure or evidence but science folk use to correct their cosmological maths?

Or the awareness and perfection that "knows what it's doing"? You know, the awareness and perfection... perhaps moving throughout all?

[Atla]

Keep in mind, Lacewing, that according to Atla, you are clueless and beneath him when it comes to intelligence, and he is just trolling you for the fun of it.

Well if you really want to know, I'm 140-145 IQ range, which is considered borderline idiot. But I also seem to have some sort of acquired savantism which in my case seems to affect my abstract thinking (I can think with the unconscious brain which is kinda parallel and almost instantaneous, skipping "conscious thoughts" which almost all humans use). I've been called a genius many times throughout my life...

Yes, I'm sure that mom is very proud of her little man.

Unfortunately, even though you may indeed possess an IQ of 140-145, along with an acquired savantism, you nevertheless have been short-changed when it comes to simple common sense.

And that's because you seem to be utterly oblivious to the negative social ramifications of your comments as it relates to this...

Or, at the very least, they come-off as being preening little blowhards who make themselves look smaller and smaller with every self-aggrandizing boast.

Put down the "I'm the smartest person in the room" shovel, Atla, because you're just digging yourself into a deeper hole where people are compelled to look for (and point-out) your faults and delusions.

Furthermore, based on the following quote from an alternate thread,...

Took me a while to see clearly as well, and the form of nondualism I subscribe to may not even be that widespread, but I think it's "the" nondualism. Now of course the human ego is very much real in the sense that it's some kind of psychological structure in the human head, made of thoughts, emotions etc. What is illusory is the.. umm there is no good way to say it.. it's the illusion of the volitional, individual self-entity that "does" things, "has" things, and most importantly, "is or has consciousness somehow".

...it is obvious (to me, anyway) that you are trapped within a mental bubble (a "mindset") that is created from what seems to be your own unique interpretation of reality consisting of not just ordinary nondualism, but what you claim to be "the" nondualism.

Do you actually think that you've come up with something new?

I mean, the notion that a subjectively-based "self" (or "I Am-ness") is an illusion is not only as old as dirt, but it is also one of the most useless and counter-intuitive theories ever devised by, presumably, a subjectively-based "volitional self-entity."

Nondualism explains absolutely nothing in terms of how the unfathomable order of the universe came about.

Moreover, when it comes to everyday human needs and psychology, how would you use the concept of nondualism to comfort a mother who just lost a child to disease or accident?

The bottom line is that if you truly believe that if all of humanity were to understand what you (and only you) understand, then please explain to us how it would resolve the following issues:

• 1. In what way would it explain how the order of the universe was achieved?
  
  2. In what way would it provide the same kind of hope, comfort, and solace that billions of humans desperately need and derive from their respective religions?
  
  3. And lastly, in what way would it not simply be just another form of existential nihilism that suggests that there is no ultimate purpose to human life?

_______

Nondualism isn't about hope, according to Occam's razor it's the correct philosophical paradigm which resolves the Western mind-body problem and reveals our "true nature". Western atheists often say things like "we are the universe" too, nondualism makes you fully realize what this means.

Unlike the majority, Atla is primarily a truth seeker and secondarily a hope seeker, not the other way around. I could come up with a thousand theories that give way more hope than the ones I think are most likely to be true, nothing would be simpler than that.

And nondualism isn't my "great theory". Nondualism is just one of the basics we have to understand, before continuing to work on the big questions. It's just a medium level insight, nothing extraordinary, but somehow Western culture fails to make it anyway.

[Lacewing]

...insofar as we know...

...that there is fact...

Do you think it's sound logic to believe certain ideas without asking/answering the questions that wouldn't readily support it?

You mean like... blah, blah, blah...

So, no, you're not interested in asking/answering questions that don't support what you believe.

I thoughtfully answered your questions to the best of my ability... but you did not answer mine. You just repeated what your claims are as if they are unquestionable pillars of truth that outweigh (and ignore) all questioning... and then you call them facts. Whatever.

Thanks (at least) for the civil discourse.

[Age]

Hmm. I don't know if that's what Atla thinks...

Well "atla" OBVIOUSLY said it.

Why the hell would I do that?

WHY you did it was NOT the issue. You just did. Full stop.

I'm just picking on the lunatics.

And who EXACTLY are 'lunatics', to you?

And in case you didn't notice Age, I picked on you in a way which made you more or less reveal what you actually believe in.

LOL
LOL
LOL

AND, what is 'it', EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE I "ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN"?

If you do NOT PROVIDE 'this', WHATEVER 'it' is you are BELIEVING here, then, ONCE AGAIN, you are NOT SAYING absolutely ANY thing AT ALL here.

Was just curious that maybe you do actually have something new to stay. But everything you said so far, I've already considered before as a possibility.

That might be exciting news to, and for, you, BUT ...