Understanding the religious mindset

[gaffo]

As usual, Immanuel Can confuses the Jesus of history with the supernatural Christ of religion.

Jesus of history was a Jew who followed and advanced the Judaism of the prophets. Jesus of history was a teacher of Judaism and a great nuisance to the Roman admin who wanted Jews to be docile conquered people

yep

It is entirely possible to worthship and try to follow the ethics of Jesus without also idolising him as God.

um, yes in the abstract - but no in the "on earth here and now (now being 10-20 yrs after Jesus death). the bible is not about us now - its written by authors 1900 yrs ago to an audience 1900 yrs ago.

and back then we had a man reveired who was killed by the romans - the result is for him to be like sparticus and just rot in the earth and have no religion born from his death - or make him more than he was +we are heartbroken that our leaer was killed - is our cause dead?" -----anothers either says - "ya our cause is lost Israel will never be free of roman rule" - or "no, Jesus did not actually die, he rose to not ony fre israel but all natios that affirm hime as God's son"......which choice with the heartbroken choose? (ego plays all the part). i thnk you know which and hense we have the NT.


BTW have you hear dof the Babists and Bahi(sp) - iranian religon startd by Bab in 1820 or so - wel lhe was a thorn in the side of the Persians - got popular like Jesus before - eventually he was killed by firing squad (of course legend says he did not die and xcaped! - sould familair?) - his deciple Bahi took the candle of the "religion" (I'm still not sure of what they believe - moslty me too lazy to investigate) - anyway most Babbists went with the deciple Bahi, which is around today - they in fact have a chuch down the street from my house and i work with a Bahi also - some Babbists rejected his deciple though - they are a small minority of at mot 20,000 (ot sure why they reject Bahi as legit dciple of Bab - as said before i know a little but not enough to really know - if you know what i man - i'm sure they have their rasaon) - Bahi makes up may 1/2 million worldwide? - not sure - pulled that number out my as.

anyway my point is the founder of Bahi )Babbists) was Bab - he got popular in Iran 200 yrs ago the authoris did not like so killed him, his followers made up stories that he did not actually die to affirm their prior theology (sound familiar?) - so ya


you know Elivs never died, nor Morrison - both suing themselves on the shores of Cuba i assume...............you get the pciture.


---------------

I'm only surprisd that Ghandi followers did not play the same game? - maybe he did too late - too many camaras to show he's dead to make him immortal?

who knows - but the theme of my rambling is that "hope springs eternal" - so if i hope to my heart bursting - i can hope jebus into never actually dying to continue my world view -and romsns will be kicked out of my homeland.

-- of course today the Romans are the Israelis and the Israelis then are now the Palistinians -----oh gawd now i've done it - ive not only derailed the thread but shown mysefl as an antisemite!!!!!!!!

burn the nazi!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gaffo]

The obvious solution is -- if you really wanna know what, for example, Christianity is about -- stop listenin' to Christians and go get yourself a Bible and start readin'.

You realize there are many interpretations that are involved, yes? I read and studied and was taught about the Bible for 10 years. My conclusion: There are some good insights in it -- as there are good insights in all kinds of places. It is a collection of accounts and stories and imaginings, delivered through various interpretations, focused on a certain time in history, and selectively assembled by man for a certain purpose: to tell people what God is and what God wants.

yep

No thank you.

???? did you just contradict yourself?


use your mind and heart and honour the works worthy and reject the rest - like i do.


I've found some of the Koran worhty too - and much filth like some of the OT. read and judge - use your mind.

I still need ot read the Muhabboratta (Hindu) - for the last 15 yrs i've known about but too lazy to take the time - show me up and read it befor eme and then school me on its worthy or unworthynes.

I have awareness and do not need to be told what I am or what will happen to me if I don't subscribe to someone else's religious beliefs. Those ideas/beliefs are the creations of man -- and do not make any sense of a vast creative source/energy. Human definitions, judgements, fears, and needs are clearly human-focused (therefore limited and skewed) within the much larger creative energy that we are a part of.

the bible says i burn in hell forever if i die before i accept Christ. - thats what the book ssays - unfair fuck ta (unfair that animals don't have souls tooo - my best friedn was a plant! - and will never have a soul nor eternal life!) - so ya not good. but the works - soome of them offer insight - moral per life as a person here and now - some don't like levitcus - pure filth - no better than the bad parts of the koran.


just use your mind and heart - read what is there then use the former if you think works are worthy os anything.

thats what i've done for 40 yrs now. still neeed to read the muhabboratta(sp) - maybe you can read that work and scholl me on it - to save me having toad it?


I've heard the part where the main man in a part of the wrok is offered Nirvana, but refuses to walk to heaven without his dog - his dog turn out to the protagonists dad reincarnated - i don't know what the protagonists did nor his fate nor his dad/dog - just tellign you what i now of a part of that work.

school me please on that great hindu work the muhabborata.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata


there is a lot of shit out there- don't wall yourself off from - until youve read and used your mind to do so afterward.


2-cent.

[Lacewing]

blah, blah, blah

Okay, I can't even read any more of your one-sided limited-ass crap right now. You're like a backed-up toilet that just keeps gurgling.

[gaffo]

You realize there are many interpretations that are involved, yes?

Yep. So find the cleanest of the bunch and read it...or not.


I have awareness and do not need to be told what I am or what will happen to me if I don't subscribe to someone else's religious beliefs.

Yeah, I get that. What I don't get is why you, and others, get your hackles up.

It's not like Mannie, or any theist for that matter, can make you do anything.

Where's the threat?

Me and Mannie disagree on the subject (he's a Christian theist, I'm a deist) but neither of us seem threatened by the other and neither of us seem all fired up to convert the other. I'm sure he'd like to see me in a Christian church come Sunday, but he doesn't beat me over the head about it, and I -- havin' no scripture to follow, no church to feed, no holy man to attend to -- feel no obligation to convert anyone.

Again: where's the threat that's got you up in arms?

Agee fully - and if you are threatened then your proir viewpoint is weak in your mind and maybe you do need to be "Saved" - lol.

1. i've no problem with discussion - fuck i'll talk to ta Nazi and Muslim fundie (knowing i'm right - not riech (thats on thme)) I won't waste my time trying to convence them that they are racist/relgionist - that is a waste of my time - but fully willing to disscourse (V-something was - is he still here? - fully anti Muslim - more than rason - more toward genetic hate per Garmanic thought - anyway i've talked with him many time - naver to convert him - beyond my power - maybe he will see the light and not hate muslims, but if so it will be thourgh hsi life not via any post from me - i welcome disccusion to understand both my firend and enemies.....BTW i'm not a dick i will make known whom i iew as my enemy or friend - and wlecome both to discuss stuff after they know my view of them). V-whomever knows i never liked him and wev'e talks - and i wasted more time than i should have. lol.

Henry - i do like you BTW, i think you know that - hurt that you say i'm crasy last yr beign a liberal libeertarian (I guess that concept is impssible to you - if you'd like to talk about libertarianism I'm all gam ) - anyway i'm over my mad - been a year or so.

[Lacewing]

Besides, Mannie is very articulate and fully capable of defending himself. Indeed, I would be an admirer of his tenacity and his eloquent defense of his beliefs if he wasn't so devious and deceitful in the way he handles criticism.

I agree. It shouldn't be that hard for him to do... and it's certainly reasonable to expect from someone who claims to have honorable principals.

I don't know about you, Lacewing, but this thread is getting exhausting.
_______

Yes!

[gaffo]

You realize there are many interpretations that are involved, yes?

Yep. So find the cleanest of the bunch and read it...or not.

"Cleanest"?... or... the one that suits? Like the propaganda that suits? If it suits, it's "truth". If it doesn't, it's an evil conspiracy, right?

What I don't get is why you, and others, get your hackles up.

My hackles are not up.

I address his deception. Many people see it. You don't appear to.

It's not like Mannie, or any theist for that matter, can make you do anything.

Of course. It has nothing to do with that. You, of all people, Henry, should understand the process and value of confronting dishonest game-players. That's all it is.

Where's the threat?

There is none. We're on a forum, challenging what each other says. IC is one of those who claims doom for those who do not subscribe to belief in a god. That's worth being challenged. In another post nearby, you claimed such people were SOBs looking to profit. But you don't seem to recognize that in your pal IC. He has also claimed that he knows all about the character flaws of atheists (as well as how they think), while he doesn't even seem to be aware of his own bullshit. That, too, is worth being challenged.

Im going to call you out here.

IC IS prejudiced toward atheists IMO - but per me who he knows is'm one of "them" he has shown honourable conduct. I i affirm that many athiests are likewise toward chrsitians - the loadmouths - antigowders. Dawkins and what is name now dead - hithcens, thay are publicity whores offer nothing.


There is a silent mojory of Chirstians and Athiests - "out there - ont on twitter nor facefuck nor yourutde - never wrote a book - they just live their live - each"side" have friends fro the other "side" and why are they friends - a shared character ( a good one i hope - -lo).

so no IC has always posted with honour to me - in fact defend my self image and self onesty - i've posted at least one i reember (usually druck - so might have to add one at least - jsut saying) - i came off as a dick ti IC at last once tha ti know of - and i have no excuse for it.

IC is the most honouralbe man on tis forum - so not sure where to come off insulting him - make you look bad.

BTW i concider him my friend though do not know his real nam - al of your can find ming since i posted it 6 month ago somewhere not that i matter nor imortant.

[Immanuel Can]

Well, give me a reason why I should be interested in him.

I can't...

It's a simple request: it means, "Why do you regard this as important?"

Just answer that. And if you can't, then I can't imagine why you want me to spend a whole lot of time on something I don't yet know anything about, but which you can't explain the value of.

[gaffo]

what the two verses state (whoever said or wrote them) contradict each other.

Or maybe they don't.

There are certainly very comprehensible explanations in which they don't. One is, as I've been suggesting, that "death," refers to multiple phenomena, all related, in Scripture, and does not merely refer to physical cessation of earthly life. The text actually not only bears out that interpretation, but positively requires it, because it uses "death" in all of these multiple ways.

and there iit is the circle is a sqaure and the square a cicle.

as i assumed so - thanks for not using word sophstry at least ic.


I diid call it out though - not to toot my own horn, but will do so since i've ben shown right. lol.

[gaffo]

Just answer that.

I DID FROM 4 WEEKS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


i have pride, i will no longer wollow on my belly - any longer - and for you to ask me make you an asshole - just sayin.

I'll no longer ask you to listen to the best radiodram ever make if you refuse nor wollow on my belly begging you to do so.

so fuck that. either you will or not - i wash my hands of it - i had hopes, but you do not seem to stand up so fuck it.

you are getting to the point of hishonouring me - just syin, think abou tit over if you repect me.

I'll not longer ask nor mention The Canticle of Leibowizts - -i shall not longer ask you to since you seem to like to disshounor me instead of just trying to listening to a show i find worthy for all perons with thought and heart.


do whatever you want - it out of my hands.

And if you can't, then I can't imagine why you want me to spend a whole lot of time on something I don't yet know anything about, but which you can't explain the value of.

whatever bubba - i thought you were willign to take your time to listen than to come back here to dicuss.

but instead you dishonour me - so do whatever the fuck you wish.

[Immanuel Can]

...you dishonour me...

No, I don't. Relax. It has nothing to do with you. It has to do with whether I want to spend hours on some obscure topic, reading something I'm not at all interested in at the moment.

You can make your pitch and interest me, or you can decide not to. That's up to you.

But you should keep in mind that when you ask for somebody -- anybody -- to invest their time, you're asking for a favour. It's not the sort of thing you can demand...at least, not reasonably. They don't owe you that, and you have no justification for getting huffy if they decline. So you can make it a reasonable request, or my answer is very simple: "No, thank you, it's not interesting."

Next topic?

[Lacewing]

IC is one of those who claims doom for those who do not subscribe to belief in a god. That's worth being challenged. .../... He has also claimed that he knows all about the character flaws of atheists (as well as how they think), while he doesn't even seem to be aware of his own bullshit. That, too, is worth being challenged.

Im going to call you out here.

What are you calling me out on? What I said IC has claimed, he has. Other people have seen it, as well. Just because it's not your experience, or you don't notice it, does not invalidate that.

IC is the most honouralbe man on tis forum - so not sure where to come off insulting him - make you look bad.

That is your opinion - and makes you look gullible. It's absurd to elevate anyone to such heights. Such loyalty and praise reveals limited thinking.

[gaffo]

...you dishonour me...

No, I don't. Relax. It has nothing to do with you. It has to do with whether I want to spend hours on some obscure topic, reading something I'm not at all interested in at the moment.

You can make your pitch and interest me, or you can decide not to. That's up to you.

But you should keep in mind that when you ask for somebody -- anybody -- to invest their time, you're asking for a favour. It's not the sort of thing you can demand...at least, not reasonably. They don't owe you that, and you have no justification for getting huffy if they decline. So you can make it a reasonable request, or my answer is very simple: "No, thank you, it's not interesting."

Next topic?

no next topic - only wished to discuss Ben. as 4 weeks ago


I nver made a demand - onloy a request - you asked at least 3 times "Why" - i said i cant anwser why until you hear.

its that simple.

i asked you to give the time to listen and you kept askign me why - instead of taking some time to listen.


as i said befre i can't tell you why if you don't take the time to listen.

iether you will assume i have good tastet and my asking of a favour has a value to me - and to you i fyou assume what i value similar stuff as you.

its that simple.

ya i got toughy - tired of "why should i what is about the ccharacter of ben as to why i show invest my time" - well the whole point is i was asking you to take the time so as to hear about your view of ben so as we can talk about him - for though i've had the CDs for 20 yrs now - bought from ZBS in 2003 - i've nver been sure of what he character represented and only wishe dto talk about it.



but if you dont have the time - just say so 0 instead of askign me 3? times what dos ben ovefer so as to invest my time./etc.


ya you are pissing me off - your right - - just sayin here.


anyway do whatver you want - i washs my hands )I'[m Pontius Pilot) - no more begging.

[gaffo]

IC is one of those who claims doom for those who do not subscribe to belief in a god. That's worth being challenged. .../... He has also claimed that he knows all about the character flaws of atheists (as well as how they think), while he doesn't even seem to be aware of his own bullshit. That, too, is worth being challenged.

Im going to call you out here.

What are you calling me out on? What I said IC has claimed, he has. Other people have seen it, as well. Just because it's not your experience, or you don't notice it, does not invalidate that.

IC is the most honouralbe man on tis forum - so not sure where to come off insulting him - make you look bad.

That is your opinion - and makes you look gullible. It's absurd to elevate anyone to such heights. Such loyalty and praise reveals limited thinking.

your claimed IC was a liar and dishonest - so i called you out on it.

i find him as neither - though a 3/4 fundie cristian,


dont play dumb - to do so is beneath you.

[gaffo]

IC is one of those who claims doom for those who do not subscribe to belief in a god. That's worth being challenged. .../... He has also claimed that he knows all about the character flaws of atheists (as well as how they think), while he doesn't even seem to be aware of his own bullshit. That, too, is worth being challenged.

Im going to call you out here.

What are you calling me out on? What I said IC has claimed, he has. Other people have seen it, as well. Just because it's not your experience, or you don't notice it, does not invalidate that.

IC is the most honouralbe man on tis forum - so not sure where to come off insulting him - make you look bad.

That is your opinion - and makes you look gullible. It's absurd to elevate anyone to such heights. Such loyalty and praise reveals limited thinking.

your prior post.

Your fondness for him is screwing up your objectivity. I would love to have a perfectly reasonable conversation about Mannie's views, as I have attempted many times. But he runs away from questions that challenge the claims he makes, and he uses deception to twist and avoid accountability and honesty. Anyone who makes claims as he does... can be questioned! Anyone who claims to know atheists better than they know themselves... can be challenged. There are valid reasons that several people are noticing what he is doing. Stop treating him like a victim. He is responsible for what he says... and he could answer all of these people for himself if he had the integrity and courage to do so.

So, back to the question put to you: Why do you suppose you have to degrade any views other than your own?

So you say IC is liar. your words.

he not - he is bigoted toward atheists - i'v seen from the first shwoing up her - but no liar.

BTW i'm not naive - in fact being an atheist - a persicuted class i've been since the age of 12 to kep my mouth shut and observe.

i see IC's characetrer is better than yours - since you know ic was not a liar but yer feeling hurt so make the false claim. ya he is a bigot per atheists - llike racits before, but that is there limitation - you limit yourself by making false claims against him - so just shut up or do a mea culpa and move on per the matter.

[Lacewing]

your claimed IC was a liar and dishonest - so i called you out on it.

i find him as neither

That's not calling me out... that's disagreeing based on your opinion. Who cares? As I said, other people have acknowledged the same as I've said, so that's our experience whether you agree with it or not. Are you his keeper? Are you aware of everything he says and does?

dont play dumb - to do so is beneath you.

I'm not doing so. I was responding to the post you replied to. Don't BE so dumb as to imagine your limited view as more than it is.