Understanding the religious mindset

[Lacewing]

Mathew sez Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul....the rules of the game seem clear (even to a biblically illiterate deist): align with God and live (as spirit) long after your flesh passes, or, do as you will, like that that fat bastid Crowley recommended, and die completely (body and soul)

Are there any other options in the game?

Such as: Recognize and honor being naturally part of vast creative energy which is not limited to the temporary identity and form of the human body?

[henry quirk]

Are there any other options in the game?

No doubt there are, but I was just layin' out the Christian position (as I understand it) on the conundrum of dyin'/not dyin' that cropped up, up-thread.

That view is not my view.


Such as: Recognize and honor being naturally part of vast creative energy which is not limited to the temporary identity and form of the human body?

Awfully artsy that: can you leech out the fartsy and just say what you mean?

[Lacewing]

You realize there are many interpretations that are involved, yes?

Yep. So find the cleanest of the bunch and read it...or not.

"Cleanest"?... or... the one that suits? Like the propaganda that suits? If it suits, it's "truth". If it doesn't, it's an evil conspiracy, right?

What I don't get is why you, and others, get your hackles up.

My hackles are not up.

I address his deception. Many people see it. You don't appear to.

It's not like Mannie, or any theist for that matter, can make you do anything.

Of course. It has nothing to do with that. You, of all people, Henry, should understand the process and value of confronting dishonest game-players. That's all it is.

Where's the threat?

There is none. We're on a forum, challenging what each other says. IC is one of those who claims doom for those who do not subscribe to belief in a god. That's worth being challenged. In another post nearby, you claimed such people were SOBs looking to profit. But you don't seem to recognize that in your pal IC. He has also claimed that he knows all about the character flaws of atheists (as well as how they think), while he doesn't even seem to be aware of his own bullshit. That, too, is worth being challenged.

[Lacewing]

Recognize and honor being naturally part of vast creative energy which is not limited to the temporary identity and form of the human body?

Awfully artsy that: can you leech out the fartsy and just say what you mean?

Aw gee, I'm sorry. Am I not speakin' 'ccordin' to yer caveman pref'rence?

I did say what I mean. Don't be a dick. Tell me what you have issue with -- or show how you think it should be worded less artsy (as you say). It also helps to keep in mind, the context I was responding to (your statement): align with God and live (as spirit) long after your flesh passes.

[Lacewing]

From what I have observed, hitherto when this was written, 'you', people/human beings, STILL do NOT YET KNOW what God IS, nor what God wants.

It doesn't appear that anyone gives a crap about your observations of this.

[henry quirk]

"Cleanest"?... or... the one that suits? Like the propaganda that suits? If it suits, it's "truth". If it doesn't, it's an evil conspiracy, right?

Cleanest as in the translation that adheres most cleanly to the original Hebrew and Greek.


I address his deception.

Why? If he is deceivin' then the biggest (only) victim is him. Why not ignore him and let him stew in his own juices?


You, of all people, Henry, should understand the process and value of confronting dishonest game-players. That's all it is.

Seems to me: we challenge only that which threatens.


In another post nearby, you claimed such people were SOBs looking to profit. But you don't seem to recognize that in your pal IC.

Please, show me where Mannie is tryin' to profit: do that and I'll spurn him.


We're on a forum, challenging what each other says. IC is one of those who claims doom for those who do not subscribe to belief in a god.

Again, seems to me: we challenge only that which threatens.


Aw gee, I'm sorry. Am I not speakin' accordin' to yer caveman pref'rence?

I don't speak artsy-fartsy.


I did say what I mean.

No doubt. I, however, don't understand it.


Don't be a dick.

Too old to change now.


Take it a few words at a time if you need to. Tell me what you have issue with -- or show how you think it should be worded less artsy (as you say).

Here's what you posted...

Recognize and honor being naturally part of vast creative energy which is not limited to the temporary identity and form of the human body?

It's that vast creative energy bit I don't get. What is it exactly that I'm naturally a part of, that I ought to recognize and honor, that supposedly transcends my discrete physicality/identity?

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slightly edited for clarity

[Immanuel Can]

...you deeply fear that if you harbor or display any doubt in your belief in the tenets of Christianity, you will be punished by God.

You're very funny.

If you actually knew the first thing about me, or my theology, you'd know that wasn't true.

But it doesn't stop you speculating, of course.

Off you go, chum.

[Immanuel Can]

what the two verses state (whoever said or wrote them) contradict each other.

Or maybe they don't.

There are certainly very comprehensible explanations in which they don't. One is, as I've been suggesting, that "death," refers to multiple phenomena, all related, in Scripture, and does not merely refer to physical cessation of earthly life. The text actually not only bears out that interpretation, but positively requires it, because it uses "death" in all of these multiple ways.

[Lacewing]

I address his deception.

Why? If he is deceivin' then the biggest (only) victim is him.

Because it is interesting and fun to address it... and there could be value to anyone who is participating or observing.

If you could evidence that his game-playin' was an actual threat

Do you only respond to threats? Is there no value in calling someone on their shit... or challenging them on what they claim?

In another post nearby, you claimed such people were SOBs looking to profit. But you don't seem to recognize that in your pal IC.

Please, show me where Mannie is tryin' to profit: do that and I'll spurn him.

It's interesting that profit is what makes someone an SOB in your view -- rather than what they say/claim.

Seems to me: we challenge only that which threatens.

Hmm. Well, I may challenge anything that doesn't seem right. That doesn't mean it's a threat. I just like to clear aside the bullshit. I guess you could say that bullshit is a threat to honesty and clarity. I don't typically think about that though -- rather, I find value in considering alternative views so that there's more to choose from and work with.

I don't speak artsy-fartsy.

Well, that's your degrading label. It is difficult to put some ideas into words when they aren't well-worn grooves from cave drawings.

I did say what I mean.

No doubt. I, however, don't understand it.

That's, no doubt, why you think it's artsy... because you don't understand it.

Don't be a dick.

Too old to change now.

Here's what you posted...

Recognize and honor being naturally part of vast creative energy which is not limited to the temporary identity and form of the human body?

It's that vast creative energy bit I don't get. What is it exactly that I'm naturally a part of, that I ought to recognize and honor, that supposedly transcends my discrete physicality/identity?

Thank you for trying, truly.

So, I think it's helpful to keep this in the context of your statement I was responding to: align with God and live (as spirit) long after your flesh passes.

I'm describing a similar concept... but without a god character (because god characters tend to be distorted and divisive creations by humans). So, instead of "aligning with God"... I see it as "recognizing and honoring being naturally part of vast creative energy"... which refers to ALL of creation, with an unfathomable level of energy pulsing through (and connecting) all of it.

I'm pointing to: our nature and the nature we're part of, alive or dead. Because we are energy. It's all energy. If there is spirit (also energy), it probably is not tied to human identity or form (similar to what you quoted).

[Lacewing]

But so far as I can see...

And so far as I can see, you are...

...absolutely refusing to entertain anything that might show problems with the belief system that you are so emotionally invested in.

Well said.

Being right/best in one's own mind is often chosen over broader awareness.

[RCSaunders]

... it uses "death" in all of these multiple ways.

Yes, I'm familiar with equivocation. Seems a strange way of revealing the, "truth."

[henry quirk]

Because it is interesting and fun to address it... and there could be value to anyone who is participating or observing.

I see...it not just about challenging but also about amusement.

What I observe is how one guy keeps grindin' away despite bein' given grief by a whole whack of folks. Simply by keepin' on he comes out smellin' a helluva lot better than his detractors. Is that the value you meant?


Do you only respond to threats? Is there no value in calling someone on their shit... or challenging them on what they claim?

Yep. Can't see the point in goin' toe to toe with the harmless. Pretty much everything I post here is as counter to bonafide threats. Want me to list 'em?

If a person is no threat, then I, as I say, can't see the point.


It's interesting that profit is what makes someone an SOB in your view -- rather than what they say/claim.

If what a person claims, no matter how nutty or gratin', can't profit them, I can't, as I say, see the point in wrestlin' 'em. Not my job to repair psyches or save souls.


Hmm. Well, I may challenge anything that doesn't seem right. That doesn't mean it's a threat. I just like to clear aside the bullshit. I guess you could say that bullshit is a threat to honesty and clarity. I don't typically think about that though -- rather, I find value in considering alternative views so that there's more to choose from and work with.

Seems an odd thing to do: call people out on what you see as bullshit. When people sell it or legislate it, then, of course, the bullshitter ought to be given what for, but when no obvious threat is on the table, then why do it? In real life, walkin' away is probably the worst thing a body can do with harmless bullshitters. You dismiss them, declare, thru action, you aren't worth my time. Same kinda dismissal works here.


Well, that's your degrading label. It is difficult to put some ideas into words when they aren't well-worn grooves from cave drawings.

Seems to me a literate person such as yourself ought not have to be fuzzy in her statements. If you know what you mean: post it instead of defaultin' to meaningless or misused words like energy.


That's, no doubt, why you think it's artsy... because you don't understand it.

I don't understand it cuz you said nuthin' I can't find, in example, in the literature of the Unitarians which is all hippy-drippy garbage.


instead of "aligning with God"... I see it as "recognizing and honoring being naturally part of vast creative energy"... which refers to ALL of creation, with an unfathomable level of energy pulsing through (and connecting) all of it.

I'm pointing to: our nature and the nature we're part of, alive or dead. Because we are energy. It's all energy. If there is spirit (also energy), it probably is not tied to human identity or form (similar to what you quoted).

Yeah, still not gettin it. Are you Unitarian (Universalist)?

[Walker]

Furthermore, I am especially interested in your explanation of why it's called "original" sin?
_______

What's important, your understanding or another's understanding?

If it's another's, wiki has a rather extensive entry by today’s standards. It begins with pithiness and then expands according to various interests, and I don’t lisp. Take ye exception with any or whole of the wiki entry?

How does this relate to the point I was making with Immanuel Can?
_______

Land sakes, with all that free sunshine you only made that much hay? Tisk tisk. My my my. It reminds me of something I was thinking about … how prosperity relates to the religious mindset.

Prosperity, wealth, has become a popular interpretation of Christianity that is stressed by various sects. Tithe your way to prosperity. It’s also a secular attack point. Just look at those greedy Christians, say the harsh critics. So what is the legitimate rationale for this prosperity business from a belief that the meek shall inherit the earth, in a land where aggression grabs the gold?

Well, it seems that when God supplants ego, and Christ-like qualities such as infinite compassion and forgiveness become the intent that shapes energetic motive force which compels the body to move, then every opportunity becomes a gift from God to be accepted and pursued with reverence. Call this natural Christianity in action, natural because it also correlates with what unlocks the potential of human nature.

However, when ego supplants God then a correlating blindness causes these gifts of opportunity to go unseen and unappreciated … thus the necessity for reminding rituals such as saying “grace,” humbly thanking God for the little packets of sunshine energy made tasty to sustain the vessel, for the glory of God as Bach would say … such is the religious mindset.

[Lacewing]

Yeah, still not gettin it.

Yeah, I can see that.

That's okay. You have your ways of being amused and seeing value... and I have mine.

It's too bad you can't respond to me without acting so arrogant, but I guess that comes from you thinking you know the final word on every fucking thing you talk about.

Are you Unitarian (Universalist)?

No.

[henry quirk]

It's too bad you can't respond to me without acting so arrogant,

sez the pot