Understanding the religious mindset

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:14 am
seeds wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 5:01 pm I wonder how many of us on this forum (especially the Americans) feel any guilt for our (look the other way) complicity in all of the cruel and nefarious things our tax supported leaders do around the world on our behalf?
henry quirk wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 6:48 pm Not guilt: frustration.
Yes, I understand your use of the word frustration, for that is indeed a fitting emotion.

However, if I was standing face-to-face with that little Palestinian girl as she expressed her anguish and tears over her hopeless situation, I personally would feel shame and guilt for being a member of one of the main imperialistic societies that not only helped to put her in that situation in the first place, but also helps to ensure that she stays there by supporting her oppressor with money and weaponry.

Indeed, it's the same sort of shame and guilt I feel to this very day for what my fellow countrymen did in Vietnam...

...in the My Lai massacre, for example.

Image

The following is a story from a site called "Reading the Pictures" as it pertains to the above image...
Reading the Pictures wrote:
The My Lai Massacre captured public awareness largely due to the 1969 public release of graphic photographs taken by Army Photographer Ronald Haeberle...

...By reading the image closely, you can see that the teenager in the right background is buttoning up her blouse. It’s a curious action. Why would she be preoccupied with a button while the other people in the photograph were terrified of being killed? Why was the button undone to begin with?

Testimony from the 1969-1979 Peers Inquiry solves the mystery of the button: the image actually captures these women and children in the moments between a sexual assault and mass murder....

...According to testimony of Jay Roberts, the Army Journalist who had accompanied Haeberle that day, the soldiers were calling the teenager “V.C. Boom Boom”—the colloquial term for a Vietcong prostitute during Vietnam. Continuing, Roberts revealed that the older woman appears so anguished because she was trying to protect the girl from being assaulted by the soldiers...

...Once the soldiers noticed the photographer and journalist, they ceased the assault. Haeberle later recalled that after walking away, “I heard an M-60 [machine gun] go off, and when we turned back around, all of [the women] and the kids with them were dead.”
In light of the above story, I'm afraid that the word "frustration" doesn't quite describe what Americans "should" be feeling with regards to that sickening event (among many others) that took place back then.

And the problem is, that the same cold-hearted evilness that prompted those soldiers to do what they did in Vietnam is still present in the way America conducts itself today in the Middle East and elsewhere around the world.
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Belinda wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:28 am This is why education should include novels, theatre, pictures, poetry, and reliably true reportage. And , of course, the ability to read, and otherwise participate in those human arts.These are vicarious means of feeling what others feel. Without empathy and sympathy we are not properly educated as civilised men.
That's a good suggestion, B.

However, unless the type of education you are describing somehow prevents young people from joining or allowing themselves to be conscripted into military service,...

...then I'm afraid that the dehumanizing brainwashing* they will be subjected to will negate whatever it is you were hoping that a rounded education might achieve.

*(A brainwashing designed to turn them into compliant little automatons that see no moral problem with murdering [or even torturing] whomever some numbskull [equally brainwashed] authority figure points his finger at.)
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seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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seeds wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:15 am
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 7:29 pm I'm guessing there will be a tipping point that causes civilization's structures of sand (no longer propped up by egos) to fall into dust. At some point, old beliefs will be allowed to fade.
I fear that any sort of meaningful change will require something far more disruptive than a mere "fading" process.

I mean, something has to somehow literally "break" the ingrained cycles that perpetuate the status quo.
Lacewing wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 5:37 pm I think so too. I think that will be part of the tipping point... and it seems inevitable. When humans have to let go of old patterns and structures that no longer stand or make sense (or can no longer be used to deny what else there is), then maybe humans will look back on this snapshot of history as a strange ego-bound phase humankind went through.
Yeah, but generally speaking,...

(based on how things have worked in the past when it comes to human nature)

...the letting go of old patterns and structures held in one hand, usually means that the other hand has hold of some new patterns and structures that will replace the old ones.

In which case, please give me some tangible and visualizable examples of what you suggest those new patterns and structures might look like?
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henry quirk
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by henry quirk »

Sculptor wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 6:45 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 5:42 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 5:22 pm

:lol: :lol:

You 2 should get a room
Atto did it better. His was multi-layered; yours lays there, obvious, humorless, boring.
So "obvious" I must have hit target.
In exactly the same way you were moved to post You 2 should get a room, I was moved to call you obvious, humorless, boring. There was no target to hit on either side. We're trolls., we don't need targets...or reasons.

To troll is sufficient in itself.
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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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seeds wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 7:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 7:29 pm When humans have to let go of old patterns and structures that no longer stand or make sense (or can no longer be used to deny what else there is), then maybe humans will look back on this snapshot of history as a strange ego-bound phase humankind went through.
Yeah, but generally speaking,...

(based on how things have worked in the past when it comes to human nature)

...the letting go of old patterns and structures held in one hand, usually means that the other hand has hold of some new patterns and structures that will replace the old ones.

In which case, please give me some tangible and visualizable examples of what you suggest those new patterns and structures might look like?
I'm guessing that a broader and more present awareness will inspire patterns and structures based on more connected thinking and reverence for all. The difference between noisy monkey-minds... and calm, seeing beings (it would probably be hard to compare much between those.) Identity can be replaced by a different concept of being. I don't think humans lack the potential to tune into a less self-involved and non-fearful frequency. It appears that many humans throughout history have discovered/known how to do that. The potential is there. Maybe our current extreme age of egoic blindness, fear, and rigidity, and the naturally resulting downfall from such things, will precipitate a quantum leap OUT OF THAT state of being for humankind... to much broader potential that we are capable of.
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:59 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:36 am ...the unsaved babis gogin to hell...
What's your evidence for your idea here? Or, unlike me, do you have no problem just making things up?
whatever, no need to become flippant.

i offered your bible doe not address babies - only adult that do not affirm your God's Son.

I just used logic - if one is too young to know of your God's son and dies not knowing he/she baby dies and goe to Hell - like the m.


2-cents.
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:59 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:36 am ...the unsaved babis gogin to hell...
What's your evidence for your idea here? Or, unlike me, do you have no problem just making things up?
whatever, no need to become flippant.

i offered your bible doe not address babies - only adult that do not affirm your God's Son.

I just use logic - if one is too young to know of your God's son and dies not knowing he/she baby dies and goe to Hell - like me.


2-cents.


BTW i asked you 2 weks ago to listen to one of the greatest works of literature - via the equally great radiodrma - and your viw of Bin eliazar.....................which you have not done so - so you eithr have no interst nor the time to sit and listen to an xcellent story and then come back to me to discuss the charater of Ben eliazar.

I love Walter Miller jrs - written work (I rad his book - after listening to the radiodrama - 20 yrs ago - is book is equal to the radiodram - the radiodram do miller book justice fully - its fully his book in audio form.

-- but you have no interest in siting down and listening to the full series - all right there in Internet archiv - adn no interst in talking with me about the nature of ben eliazer.


so - i assume we have noting to discuss.
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henry quirk
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:16 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:28 pm whatever stratification there is, is most heavily promoted by rich American Leftists.
Boy, is that ever true!
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/noah ... ic-racism/
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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gaffo wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:44 am i offered your bible doe not address babies
It does, actually...quite a lot. But it doesn't answer your particular question, so far as I know. Maybe it does, but I don't know where.

But even were that true, it would not provide any evidence for a conclusion either way. It would just mean we're not told.

And why would we be? After all, babies aren't capable of knowledge, and you and I are not responsible to know that, since we're not babies. Our responsibilities are for what we do know, and who we are...not for other people.
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:30 am
gaffo wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:44 am i offered your bible doe not address babies
It does, actually...quite a lot. But it doesn't answer your particular question, so far as I know. Maybe it does, but I don't know where.

But even were that true, it would not provide any evidence for a conclusion either way. It would just mean we're not told.

And why would we be? After all, babies aren't capable of knowledge, and you and I are not responsible to know that, since we're not babies. Our responsibilities are for what we do know, and who we are...not for other people.
the isue should b addresed in your book because all adults love thier kids and babis - and if/when they die as babies or kid, the parnts suffer thier loss and wonder if thy are saved or not.

and why peter 2 was written - to addres adults that lovd thier parents and gandparents who lived poior to Christ's time - wondering if those they lovd who did before them are offered salvation or not - in that book (which w talkd about last year and whicich you do not agee with me on -0 was wtitten to ay in effect "y they are savd if they accept Chrsit, who decended into Hell 3 day after his crucifiction, for anyonw "lving there" to har and accept Christ as God/God's son.

of course that leave me out since i was born 2000 yrs too late.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

what about Ben Eleazar - you just not willing to listen to the story so we can talk about the nature of his character? the immortal wondering jew.
Belinda
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Belinda »

seeds wrote:
Belinda wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:28 am
This is why education should include novels, theatre, pictures, poetry, and reliably true reportage. And , of course, the ability to read, and otherwise participate in those human arts.These are vicarious means of feeling what others feel. Without empathy and sympathy we are not properly educated as civilised men.
That's a good suggestion, B.
However, unless the type of education you are describing somehow prevents young people from joining or allowing themselves to be conscripted into military service,...

...then I'm afraid that the dehumanizing brainwashing* they will be subjected to will negate whatever it is you were hoping that a rounded education might achieve.

*(A brainwashing designed to turn them into compliant little automatons that see no moral problem with murdering [or even torturing] whomever some numbskull [equally brainwashed] authority figure points his finger at.)
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Belinda replies to seeds:

My suggestion goes hand in hand with democracy. In a modern civilised country persons who have been educated in Humanities will have imbibed empathy at the appropriate age of their moral development. These persons will use democratic power to stop their countries engaging in unjust wars.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:48 am the isue should b addresed
That's your view. You may think so.

But just because a person thinks God "should" do something, that does not obligate Him to do it. What is right is that you and I should know what pertains to us, in regard to salvation. You are not responsible -- or even able -- to know about another person's situation. You can only know what they tell you, and a baby can tell you nothing.

That's how it is.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:52 am what about Ben Eleazar - you just not willing to listen to the story so we can talk about the nature of his character? the immortal wondering jew.
You asked me about the Governors General, a conversation that was more effort than it was worth. I'm not willing to be drawn into a series of irrelevancies, of course. Life's too short. I may be more interested in this topic, if I eventually get to it; but you'll have to give me a reason to think I ought to invest the kind of time you're asking for, because you're asking for a substantial chunk.

What would that reason be?
seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Belinda wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:54 am My suggestion goes hand in hand with democracy. In a modern civilised country persons who have been educated in Humanities will have imbibed empathy at the appropriate age of their moral development. These persons will use democratic power to stop their countries engaging in unjust wars.
That's kind of funny, B, because when I think of a "civilized" country, England comes to mind. Yet through their imperialistic shenanigans,...

Image

...the prim and proper (civilized) English (not to mention their American offshoot) have been some of the worst offenders of the sovereignty and rights of other members of the world community.

So I'm just not seeing how being a "civilized democracy" is going to change the covetous, greedy, and self-serving nature of each individual country or nation-state,...

Image

...or how studying the Humanities is going to have any affect on sociopaths such as the Donald Trumps or the Kim Jong-uns of the world (or even some of the members of this very forum).

What we really need is a completely new system of thinking in which wars of any sort (be they just or unjust) are no longer considered a solution to our differences.
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Last edited by seeds on Thu May 27, 2021 7:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

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Now, getting back to the issue of the "religious mindset"...
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:55 pm
seeds wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:08 pm "original sin"
You don't understand that doctrine, if you think it means, "Being punished for something your forefathers did." No wonder you don't believe it, then.
I know I'm going to regret asking this, but,...

...why in the world do humans need Jesus to "save" them?

Save them from what?
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