Putting ''Immanuel Can'' In The Religious Spotlight Part 2

[VVilliam]

This is the same thing as your referencing "Mistaking the map for the terrain"

Thank you for your reply, I did read it all, I understand what you are saying, because I too have believed in what you have said here to be the way things are. I used to believe that we are not our body, and that the body is just a vehicle for spirit. I beleived this for a long long time, but was never really satisfied with it because of the pain problem.

If like you say we are the ones that created ourselves, how could we possibly believe this VR would be a good idea. To me, it's an absolutely preposterous idea, to create sentient organisms to endure millions of years of pain and torture, ending in death anyway.

Unless it's all just the result of random unintelligent crude forces, and chemical molecules mindlessly replicating themselves for no reason or puropse or meaning, and no knowing of how to stop it. It's all just a bad mindless idea in my opinion.

Then there's the Christians hoping and petitioning their god for eternal life...which never made any sense to me whatsoever, for all that is known is what's happening here in physical flesh and blood, I mean who would want to live forever in this torture chamber. Religion doesn't make any sense to me.

Thanks for your reply.

I used to think along similar lines as you express above in relation to this universe of pain. However, I kept in mind the idea we created said VR to experience it in that manner.

So in that, by my retaining the idea we are the ones who created said VR [embodied in YHWH re the dominant creator concept of this world] we - what we really are - is immaterial interacting with the material we created in order to do so.

But what are we then? Mad-crazy for making the experience so horrific for us?

That is one interpretation, but in accepting it, we have to ignore other aspects of said experience which are not focused primarily upon pain and suffering.

In that I am saying that if one focuses only on the aspects of pain and suffering, one is libel to interpret the experience in the way that you have.

Do you agree with this observation?

[Dontaskme]

Do you agree with this observation?

I appreciate what you are saying, and why you would think that way VVilliam.

But I am of a different opinion, not that I reject your opinion totally, I get it...but I just don't think it's a game worth playing. I've seen way too much in my lifetime to know I do not want to do this ever again.

I feel so much empathy and compassion in knowing that life for sentient creatures is a temporal experience, and that it is endurable, because what choice do they have but to keep on enduring it, but I'm not so sure we think we have the right to play God and impose more life upon ourselves by reproducing more of us for too much longer. I mean look at the mess we are making here, we advanced technologically but the impact we are causing here to nature, is going to bite us on the arse eventually anyway. If we don't pull the plug, nature will do it for us anyway....The new borns are being born into the mess we've made, it's unfair to expect them to clean up the terrible mess we have made, a mess that was never their mess.



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[Immanuel Can]

''actioned by no thing'' simply implies a unitary action, in the context there can be no action without an actor,

Yeah...except, there actually CAN'T be.

If there is no actor, there's no action. Period. Nobody did anything. Nothing was done. Same thing.

I can make no sense of a "painting" that had no painter. Actions don't exist in the way that actors do...they exist only in the dynamics of the actor.

But the concept 'actor' can only be known in relation to the concept 'action'. [/quote]
Bad analogy. An "actor," by definition, is a person who performs an action.

But you say there is no person. So neither can there be an action.

[Dontaskme]

Yeah...except, there actually CAN'T be.

If there is no actor, there's no action. Period. Nobody did anything. Nothing was done. Same thing.

Bad analogy. An "actor," by definition, is a person who performs an action.

But you say there is no person. So neither can there be an action.

There is simply no thing appearing as everything, same one thing. A non-dual/story arising as and to it self, which is no thing appearing as a thing, same one thing.

No word can define 'what is' or every word defines ...words are like water color paint upon a flowing water.

That which is growing the grass is the same that which is doing every thing.

Does the grass say I am growing grass. Nope, there's just grass growing, there's just everything happening simultaneously, life is happening as one unitary seamless action.

Strange, but true, check out nondual literature for more clarity on how this is possible to know. It's something else to learn, since there is nothing happening here.

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[VVilliam]

Do you agree with this observation?

I appreciate what you are saying, and why you would think that way VVilliam.

But I am of a different opinion, not that I reject your opinion totally, I get it...but I just don't think it's a game worth playing. I've seen way too much in my lifetime to know I do not want to do this ever again.

My reply to that here

I feel so much empathy and compassion in knowing that life for sentient creatures is a temporal experience, and that it is endurable, because what choice do they have but to keep on enduring it, but I'm not so sure we think we have the right to play God and impose more life upon ourselves by reproducing more of us for too much longer. I mean look at the mess we are making here, we advanced technologically but the impact we are causing here to nature, is going to bite us on the arse eventually anyway. If we don't pull the plug, nature will do it for us anyway....The new borns are being born into the mess we've made, it's unfair to expect them to clean up the terrible mess we have made, a mess that was never their mess.

I empathize with your view here. However, I also view 'who I am' to being an eternal entity simply having a strange experience in a VR I created for that purpose...perhaps to also experience empathy.

I see the potential of sentient AI machines created by biological machines [such as humans] to take over the reigns and act as an integral part of nature rather than against the flow [as eternal entitles within human biological machines tend to do] and I can visualize in a far off future these will even transform the stuff of the Galaxies into vast interconnected sentient mechanical machines.
Meanwhile [between now and then] the AI can take the seed of biological machines and plant these onto earthlike planets which can sustain said biological machines, and those biological machines will repeat the process of eventually creating AI machines - thus the overall process gives meaning and purpose to the universe in relation to that transformation process.

One can become too emotionally attached to the biological and remain shortsighted as a result.

If one is an Eternal immaterial being, then experiencing the suits within the creation, whether they are biological or mechanical, is not something one needs to become emotionally attached to - and biological machines [such as the human instrument] tend to allow the immaterial being experiencing said 'suits' to experience emotion and react emotionally, which has also proven to be somewhat problematic...but problems themselves are simply things which help produce solutions...




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[Dontaskme]

VVilliam.. thanks for your reply.

I have to go now, but will be back tomorrow with my response.

[Immanuel Can]

Does the grass say I am growing grass. Nope, there's just grass growing

In that sentence, "grass" is the subject of the sentence, meaning the noun that does the action, and "am growing" is the verb, the action.

So even your sentence structure is a proof that claim is wrong.

[Dontaskme]

Does the grass say I am growing grass. Nope, there's just grass growing

In that sentence, "grass" is the subject of the sentence, meaning the noun that does the action, and "am growing" is the verb, the action.

So even your sentence structure is a proof that claim is wrong.

Ok..mannie.

I concede, this nondual discourse, the way I am presenting it to others to be read and understood, is informing back to me as being wrong, so be it, there is nothing more I can do to make it clear.
It's not a problem here. It's all very clear to me, and what is clear to me, is never wrong. Thanks for the feedback anyway.

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[Dontaskme]

Do you agree with this observation?

I appreciate what you are saying, and why you would think that way VVilliam.

But I am of a different opinion, not that I reject your opinion totally, I get it...but I just don't think it's a game worth playing. I've seen way too much in my lifetime to know I do not want to do this ever again.

My reply to that here

I feel so much empathy and compassion in knowing that life for sentient creatures is a temporal experience, and that it is endurable, because what choice do they have but to keep on enduring it, but I'm not so sure we think we have the right to play God and impose more life upon ourselves by reproducing more of us for too much longer. I mean look at the mess we are making here, we advanced technologically but the impact we are causing here to nature, is going to bite us on the arse eventually anyway. If we don't pull the plug, nature will do it for us anyway....The new borns are being born into the mess we've made, it's unfair to expect them to clean up the terrible mess we have made, a mess that was never their mess.

I empathize with your view here. However, I also view 'who I am' to being an eternal entity simply having a strange experience in a VR I created for that purpose...perhaps to also experience empathy.

Yeah I kinda get what you are saying, and from my personal understanding of the VR analogy, it is likened to life as a dream, in that it is apparently happening to no one. It's appearing as a real cinematic experience but that's just an effect of the illusion it is. And the fact that the consciousness that appears simultaneously as a material body responsible for animating that body is directly known to come from no thing and dissolve back into the no thing from which it appears, suggests to me, that the nature of reality is a VR, and some even call the VR a nondual reality. But I could be way off track here, I don't know, I've only got my own imagined theory about what's apparently happening.

I see the potential of sentient AI machines created by biological machines [such as humans] to take over the reigns and act as an integral part of nature rather than against the flow [as eternal entitles within human biological machines tend to do] and I can visualize in a far off future these will even transform the stuff of the Galaxies into vast interconnected sentient mechanical machines.
Meanwhile [between now and then] the AI can take the seed of biological machines and plant these onto earthlike planets which can sustain said biological machines, and those biological machines will repeat the process of eventually creating AI machines - thus the overall process gives meaning and purpose to the universe in relation to that transformation process.

One can become too emotionally attached to the biological and remain shortsighted as a result.

If one is an Eternal immaterial being, then experiencing the suits within the creation, whether they are biological or mechanical, is not something one needs to become emotionally attached to - and biological machines [such as the human instrument] tend to allow the immaterial being experiencing said 'suits' to experience emotion and react emotionally, which has also proven to be somewhat problematic...but problems themselves are simply things which help produce solutions...

Intresting ideas, which could be feasible or possible as a future prediction that is yet to manifest, because I'm of the belief that if an idea can be 'thought about' then it can manifest into an actuality.

I just don't like the suffering part of the whole experience, and sometimes I wonder if the creator also feels a slight regret at how the VR is functioning, and maybe wants to scrap it completely for something better and more durable and enjoyable. But then maybe this particular experiement is being implemented as a basic simple proto-type. Perhaps consciousness is still in it's infancy and desires to build upon itself toward some form of self god like mastery. But I personally think some tweaking needs to be done before we reach that state, and if that is our mission, we are going to have to endure the courage to believe in our selves, whatever we model them to be or look and feel like.

I do like your ideas though VVilliam..are you writing a book?

[Immanuel Can]

It's all very clear to me, and what is clear to me, is never wrong.

I see.

Well, the opposite of that is called "education."

[Dontaskme]

It's all very clear to me, and what is clear to me, is never wrong.

I see.

Well, the opposite of that is called "education."

Ah yes of course, that's obviously what someone like you would say, so I cannot object to that.

However, nonduality is pointing us back to our origins, which is not-a-thing. It's not a teaching, or a learning, it's an unlearning.

Most people are not interested, fine, I get it.

[Dontaskme]

Does the grass say I am growing grass. Nope, there's just grass growing

In that sentence, "grass" is the subject of the sentence, meaning the noun that does the action, and "am growing" is the verb, the action.

So even your sentence structure is a proof that claim is wrong.

Reality does not inform itself it is doing or being. How could it, it would have to split into two realities, the informer and the informed.

Knowledge is within the dream of duality, it's an illusory appearance of the absolute. It's the absolute relative.

There is only LIFE - it's not-a-thing Lifeing.

Not-a-thing can know the absolute, because there is only the absolute.

No one knows this.

In saying there is no 'one', the 'one' that is negated is known.

Apart from the 'one' known, there is no 'one'.


IC...if you do not want to hear this, or cannot hear it, it's no problem, doesn't mean you are wrong, or that I am wrong.

Each of us is a holographic piece of the whole. . an appearance within the dream, experiencing a role through the unique lens of each dream character. No one is wrong or right, except in the dream story. . . in this conception.

I know you've already said you don't believe it, so be it.

[Immanuel Can]

Most people are not interested, fine, I get it.

There might be a reason they're not...

[Walker]

Most people are not interested, fine, I get it.

There might be a reason they're not...

If someone can’t play the geetar, their noodling is just noise.

If someone knows nothing, their mouth sounds are just noise.

[Immanuel Can]

Most people are not interested, fine, I get it.

There might be a reason they're not...

If someone can’t play the geetar, their noodling is just noise.

If someone knows nothing, their mouth sounds are just noise.

Yeah.

Something doesn't get to be "profound" merely by way of being self-contradictory or utterly impossible to understand. Most of the time, when a person just "begs off" to "mystery," they're hiding that they've run out of answers that make any sense.