Is morality objective or subjective?

[Terrapin Station]

Note the general rule,
whatever is fact is conditioned upon a FSK, implying an existing FSK within a community of living humans.

In this imaginary case of a lone astronaut in another planet, there is no more existing FSK.
But for the astronaut based on his memory it would be a historical FSK.

It is no point asking me whether it is a fact since the astronaut is the only one existing and in that scenario I and everyone will not be around.

If the astronaut pushes a familiar button, we have to presume the astronaut would ask himself that question since there is no one around.
In that case, it would be a fact for himself only as based on the historical FSK in his memory.

Okay, and then if the astronaut died and some non-sentient object fell and hit the button you wouldn't say that's a fact, presumably.

Would you say that it happened that some non-sentient object fell and hit the button, but you just wouldn't award it with the term "fact"? Or would you say that it couldn't even happen?

If the astronaut died, i.e. no more human beings, then there is no human to say whatever.
In that situation [since there are no humans] there is no way for any human to consider whether 'it could or could not even happen'.

If you assume there are no more humans, then you cannot insist there are humans to consider whatever possibilities. It is a contradiction.

It's not asking what a human in that scenario would say. It's asking what you would say, now, about what's the case in that scenario. Would you say, now, that in that scenario, it's a fact that the button was pushed by a non-sentient object falling into it or not?

[Terrapin Station]

All the time.
And normally all comments have moral content.
I cannot think of an example where they did not.

So take an example of something like Elvis' soundtrack albums of the 60s, many of which a lot of people think are bad. What are some examples of assessments of them being bad where people are saying that they're morally bad? (I'm referring to albums such as Kissin' Cousins, Paradise Hawaiian Style, It Happened at the World's Fair, etc.--you can look at rym reviews for examples of negative comments)

You are having a laff mate.
Comments about Elvis' immorality were legion.
By the time he was making films he'd been tamed and anodyne - that is as much a moral statement as him attracting critique for shking his hips.
Maybe you could try a different example?

The task was for you to provide actual examples of assessments of those albums being bad where you're reading the assessments as moral assessments.

[Skepdick]

The task was for you to provide actual examples of assessments of those albums being bad where you're reading the assessments as moral assessments.

They were voiced. Often with the intention to convince others to not listen to them/not buy them.

Persuasion to behave otherwise (or to behave more like the persuader) is always of moral nature.

[Terrapin Station]

Just checking how we got here in answer to the question: is morality objective or subjective? Did it go like this...?

The OP question boils down to asking: are there moral facts? That leads to the questions: what is what we call a fact?; and does such a thing exist independently from any of our (necessarily human) descriptions? (Hence the thought-experiments.)

Is that what this argument is about? Or am I missing something important?

I don't really pay attention to what thread I'm posting in once things get going, because I really couldn't care less. I'd rather be chatting than posting on a message board, so I try to treat message boards as much like chat as I can.

I just address issues in posts that I read--where when I get to the post via it being a response to me I don't pay one bit I attention to what thread it's in, and that will usually lead to a number of other tangents, where due to the typical nature of interaction in venues like this, nothing ever gets settled.

[Terrapin Station]

The task was for you to provide actual examples of assessments of those albums being bad where you're reading the assessments as moral assessments.

They were voiced. Often with the intention to convince others to not listen to them.

Persuasion to behave otherwise (or to behave more like the persuader) is always of moral nature.

Morality has to do with interpersonal, action-oriented behavior first off.

What you're describing doesn't qualify.

[Skepdick]

Morality has to do with interpersonal, action-oriented behavior first off.

What you're describing doesn't qualify.

Then your qualifier must be broken.

Expressed (and heard) opinions are ALWAYS inter-personal. Because there's always at least two parties to any communication!
Communication is all the modes of expression by which one mind affects another.

Language is action-oriented. When I tell you that album X is totally shit and it's not worth buying/listening, I am priming you to have feelings about X a priori (especially if you trust me to be a reliable judge of music).

That's how and why marketing fucking works.

Every time you utter "Album X was totally bad and not worth listening to" you are influencing the behaviour of other people!

If morality is about inter-personal behaviour, then this totally fits the bill!

[Terrapin Station]

Morality has to do with interpersonal, action-oriented behavior first off.

What you're describing doesn't qualify.

Then your qualifier must be broken.

Expressed (and heard) opinions are ALWAYS inter-personal. Because there's always at least two parties to any communication!
Communication is all the modes of expression by which one mind affects another.

Language is action-oriented. When I tell you that album X is totally shit and it's not worth buying/listening, I am priming you to have feelings about X a priori (especially if you trust me to be a reliable judge of music).

That's how and why marketing fucking works.

Every time you utter "Album X was totally bad and not worth listening to" you are influencing the behaviour of other people!

If morality is about inter-personal behaviour, then this totally fits the bill!

Action-oriented, and it's about interpersonal behavior that the person in question considers more significant than etiquette.

[Skepdick]

Action-oriented,

Check.

and it's about interpersonal behavior

Check.

that the person in question considers more significant than etiquette.

Music is serious fucking business man!!!

Check.


This was our paradox: no course of action could be determined by a rule, because any course of action can be made out to accord with the rule. --Ludwig Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations, §201a

[Terrapin Station]

Check.

What action is being performed on someone else?

[Skepdick]

What action is being performed on someone else?

Words.

My language affects your mind.

[Terrapin Station]

What action is being performed on someone else?

Words.

My language affects your mind.

The question isn't whether the review is a moral action.

[Skepdick]

The question isn't whether the review is a moral action.

The question was "What action is being performed on someone else?"

You don't seem to think affecting another mind with words is an action upon that mind.

[Terrapin Station]

The question isn't whether the review is a moral action.

The question was "What action is being performed on someone else?"

You don't seem to think affecting another mind with words is an action upon that mind.

I'm not asking about words. The issue is the claim that most comments a la "this is a bad album" are saying something moral about the album.

[Skepdick]

I'm not asking about words. The issue is the claim that most comments a la "this is a bad album" are saying something moral about the album.

Suddenly you've gone into the lala land of noumena.

The social interaction which takes place when you utter the English sentence "The album is utterly shit" is a moral interaction ABOUT the album.

[Terrapin Station]

I'm not asking about words. The issue is the claim that most comments a la "this is a bad album" are saying something moral about the album.

Suddenly you've gone into the lala land of noumena.

The social interaction which takes place when you utter the English sentence "The album is utterly shit" is a moral interaction ABOUT the album.

You're claiming that it's a moral assessment of the album, correct?