Putting ''Immanuel Can'' In The Religious Spotlight Part 2

[Belinda]

Judaism includes that God transcends and has power over His creation: God and His creation are separate substances. This is not a monistic theory of existence. Monistic theories of existence recognise one ontic substance as in the quotation above.

Yep, I get that. I'm not having any trouble at all understanding what DAM is trying to say. It's really not that hard: you can't make things much simpler than "all is one." One is the loneliest number, as the old song says.

It's just that it still doesn't make rational sense, and doesn't reconcile with what DAM herself is doing.

It is the nature of all human languages to be dualistic i.e. when people make propositions. A proposes that B.
I justify belief in non-dualism with reference to its corollary : if all the myriad things are one , Brahman, then it is rational to desist from making war, from greed, and from cruelty and it is rational to aim to understand and empathise with what in the relative world seems to be other than myself.

[Dontaskme]

It's just that it still doesn't make rational sense

Niether does a supreme creator god who has a son called jesus who came to earth from god knows where just to die for the sake of some human sinners so that they be born again into a sinless life. Sounds more like a story the roman empire would have written to use as a social engineering psyop (psychological operation) in the attempt to sieze control of the sense of having a higher power over the sheeple.
A kind of ''Problem - Reaction - Solution '' strategy.
Empires have been engineering this strategy since time immemorial. And they've all failed miserably. If you want to know the future, you need look no further than in the past. Human knowledge is a self fulfilling prophesy ( err, hello! )

Believe what you want IC ... I can never refute your belief, for I am not your belief.

Same applies to you, you can never refute my belief, for you are not my belief.

One belief cannot annihilate another belief, because they exist only within a mind, which is a myth.
The wild geese do not intend to cast their reflection; The water has no mind to retain their image.
Attempting to know is like catching water in a sieve. Or hammering a nail into the sky.

Reality has no mind to tell a story, reality just is - this is it - it is absolutely unknowable.

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[Dontaskme]

Alan Watts Non Duality (Remastered)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUtcvAaNw3g&t=6s


From belief to clarity.

[Belinda]

Non-duality makes sense, and transcendent deity makes sense.

Theism.
________________

God is other than His creation. Whether or not God became a man is something else.
I have already justified belief in non-dualism. I can justify belief in a deity who is other than that deity's creation.

"Other than that deity's creation" is what "transcends His creation " means.

Men spontaneously feel we can communicate with others than ourselves. To communicate with God is to communicate with ultimate love, power, and knowledge like not talking to myself. It is an I-Thou relationship that is not possible when the framework of belief is that I and thou are the same.

[attofishpi]

Non-duality makes sense, and transcendent deity makes sense.

Theism.
________________

God is other than His creation. Whether or not God became a man is something else.
I have already justified belief in non-dualism. I can justify belief in a deity who is other than that deity's creation.

"Other than that deity's creation" is what "transcends His creation " means.

Men spontaneously feel we can communicate with others than ourselves. To communicate with God is to communicate with ultimate love, power, and knowledge like not talking to myself. It is an I-Thou relationship that is not possible when the framework of belief is that I and thou are the same.

If U really think that GOD is some ultimate LOVE - then I suggest U reverse both words:-

A Dog is a man's best friend - reversed - renders GOD a mans worst enemy (so I suggest one doesn't)

LOVE? homophone to EVOL? I am not stating God is EVIL - but...ne one that comprehends this entities existence, needs to get OFF this bandwagon that GOD IS LOVE - U cross that **** U R fucked. (so in a sense - maybe the dude IS love )

[Dontaskme]

Non-duality makes sense, and transcendent deity makes sense.

There is no such thing as Nonduality.

That which appears to transcend, NEVER transcends.

This knowledge will never make sense because knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of reality.

Few would ever dream to escape the prison of the mind if they knew there is nothing beyond the prison walls.

[Belinda]

Attofishpi: I ,and I trust DAM and Mannie , are discussing the ontology of God and Brahman. We are not at this time discussing which attributes God might be considered to possess.

[Belinda]

Non-duality makes sense, and transcendent deity makes sense.

There is no such thing as Nonduality.

That which appears to transcend, NEVER transcends.

This knowledge will never make sense because knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of reality.

Few would ever dream to escape the prison of the mind if they knew there is nothing beyond the prison walls.

Oh yes they do ! It is one of the glories of the human to be curious about how we can know what we think we know.

[Dontaskme]

Non-duality makes sense, and transcendent deity makes sense.

There is no such thing as Nonduality.

That which appears to transcend, NEVER transcends.

This knowledge will never make sense because knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of reality.

Few would ever dream to escape the prison of the mind if they knew there is nothing beyond the prison walls.

Oh yes they do ! It is one of the glories of the human to be curious about how we can know what we think we know.

Only within the dream, the illusory belief of I

There is nothing beyond the dream of I - for the dream is all there is.

.

[attofishpi]

Attofishpi: I ,and I trust DAM and Mannie , are discussing the ontology of God and Brahman. We are not at this time discussing which attributes God might be considered to possess.

Really? Well, then - don't mention (and ascribe to IT) THE most assumed attribute of GOD.

[Immanuel Can]

It's just that it still doesn't make rational sense

Believe what you want IC ... I can never refute your belief, for I am not your belief.

I didn't say, "It's not my belief," (though it isn't, of course).

I said "It's not rational." Those are quite different propositions.

You may say that the story of the One True God is not one you believe. You can say that. But you can't say that the story has the sort of fundamental internal incoherency that Non-dualism has. You can claim it's not how things are, if you want. But you can't say it doesn't make sense on its own terms.

Which is what I'm saying of Non-dualism.

So I'm not saying that Non-dualism fails to live up to the standards of some other religion. I'm saying it can't stand up to its own standards.

[Dontaskme]

It's just that it still doesn't make rational sense

Believe what you want IC ... I can never refute your belief, for I am not your belief.

I didn't say, "It's not my belief," (though it isn't, of course).

I said "It's not rational." Those are quite different propositions.

You may say that the story of the One True God is not one you believe. You can say that. But you can't say that the story has the sort of fundamental internal incoherency that Non-dualism has. You can claim it's not how things are, if you want. But you can't say it doesn't make sense on its own terms.

Which is what I'm saying of Non-dualism.

So I'm not saying that Non-dualism fails to live up to the standards of some other religion. I'm saying it can't stand up to its own standards.

Reality is Unknowable full stop IC

All else is imagination, a conceptual overlay upon the unknowable, in other words a fantasy.

Nature never questions because there is no separation there that can know itself. All knowledge claims are an illusion.

Most people live in their fantasies and delusion because that is all they know, albeit illusory knowing.

Nonduality is the ultimate truth, it is the end of knowledge, the end of the delusion of living for illusions.

Reality is nothing appearing as everything which is nothing.


The human phantom could not deal with not-knowing, so in it's shock and terror, it created an image of itself, in the name of God...just more utter delusion upon delusion upon delusion.

[Dontaskme]

I said "It's not rational."

It is irrational to claim rational is irrational.

This is the dilemma of opposites , the dual nature of knowledge.

In real reality, prior to knowledge, Nothing can see itself. Nothing is looking. Nothing can know itself. Nothing is knowing. Knowledge cannot get any more Irrational than that.

Thankfully, knowledge only points to the illusory nature of reality, in that it is not-knowing knowing. It is ultimately un-knowable.

This is what Non-duality truly means.

It is the peace that passes all understanding, in that it is realised that there is nothing to understand.

The goal and purpose of life is peace. Nothing can disturb what is always at peace, everything else is smoke upon that pure still imageless mirror.


R.I.P

[Dontaskme]

You can claim it's not how things are, if you want. But you can't say it doesn't make sense on its own terms.

It doesn't make sense in the same context there is nothing there / here that sense can be made from. Sense is totally senseless.

Nothing knows sensation, there is only sensation. Nothing knows, there is only knowing. Nothing sees, there is only seeing.
Seeing does not see a sight. Sight is seeing.

And finally, It is not I that asks the question, there is only the question.The question contains the answer, and together..they cease to exist.

There is nothing that asks the question Who AM I ? the answer may come as a named thing, but the named thing is the nothing, and the nothing is unconditional boundless freedom, why, because that which is forever boundlessly and unconditionally free can never be bound by conditions.

There is nothing appearing as conditions and boundraries, except as illusions...in this conception, albeit illusory.

Who are you? the one asking the question? Only you can answer.

You have no idea who you are or what you are. You had no awareness knowledge of your birth and will have no awareness or knowledge of your death. You only exist as knowledge which is an illusion.

But then the mind will say... I know I have been birthed because I witness other people being born, and I know I will die because I witness others dying.
But the point is, you cannot witness your OWN birth and death. And when that realisation is realised.... that is when nondual truth is seen for the very first time...That you are not witness to your OWN birth and death, means the same for OTHERS.

That you appear to have been born and one day will die is the DREAM...and just like in all dreams, no character within the dream, ACTUALLY EXISTS AS REAL

.

[Dontaskme]

To conclude then...

NO ONE has ever witnessed their OWN birth or death.

What appears to be a separate I .. does not exist, except in this conception. The Concept of I is known, but never SEEN, for the seer is inseparable from it's conceptually known image (artifical conception).
It's an Artificial conception, as both the seer and the seen are ONE in the same instant. Therefore, the seen is only ever the seeing, thus anything seen cannot and does not in and of itself see or know anything....this is how ONENESS is proven to be the only reality.


This one knows all concepts because this one is the only one that conceives all concepts. This one is the only source of all known concepts. This one is known, but NEVER SEEN. This one that sees cannot see this seeing. This one that knows cannot know this knowing. Reality is a VERB

In reality, ALL conceptually known apparent separate self-identified entities DO NOT exist. Animals are living testimony and evidence of NO identified SELF.

Identification is born only of ILLUSORY KNOWLEDGE...in other words, the self THAT IS KNOWN is an appearance of nothing, arises from nothing, is nothing, and returns to nothing.

The known self is called the EGO ..it is unique to humans because humans have known knowledge, but knowledge in and of itself, is sourced within the pure emptiness of every known appearance, knowledge is nothing appearing as something, which is actually one and the same no thing.

In other words, nothing gives birth to itself, and nothing dies...except in this conception, aka knowledge...an illusion.

The believing brain thinks the illusion is real, and that is why the human brain can be manipulated by other human brains into believing just about anything it can possible think of...as the brain continues to identify with it's thoughts as real.

And that is why life for humans will always be a freak show.

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