The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

[Terrapin Station]

You are a dinosaur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyBqpjcissc

If a doctor instructs a nurse to give the wrong injection, you think the nurse is responsible. Such a good taste in music for a ****.

I think we talked about this example already. Are we saying (1) where the nurse believes it to be something other than what was claimed, (2) where the doctor is forthright but there's no reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary, or (3) where the doctor is forthright and there IS a reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary?

[Sculptor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyBqpjcissc

If a doctor instructs a nurse to give the wrong injection, you think the nurse is responsible. Such a good taste in music for a ****.

I think we talked about this example already. Are we saying (1) where the nurse believes it to be something other than what was claimed, (2) where the doctor is forthright but there's no reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary, or (3) where the doctor is forthright and there IS a reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary?

Same back to you with Hitler giving order to invade the Ukraine.
Let's hear what you got!

[Terrapin Station]

If a doctor instructs a nurse to give the wrong injection, you think the nurse is responsible. Such a good taste in music for a ****.

I think we talked about this example already. Are we saying (1) where the nurse believes it to be something other than what was claimed, (2) where the doctor is forthright but there's no reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary, or (3) where the doctor is forthright and there IS a reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary?

Same back to you with Hitler giving order to invade the Ukraine.
Let's hear what you got!

You're talking about factual knowledge in the latter case then? What factual knowledge?

[UniversalAlien]

Updated 7:49 AM ET, Sun January 17, 2021

Acting secretary of defense orders NSA chief to install Trump loyalist as agency's general counsel
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/16/politics ... index.html

SO - If in fact the Jan. 6 riots and storming of the Capitol was in fact a Trump coup attempt
- Is it still going on

Remember the famous baseball player and manager, and occasional philosopher Yogi Berra once said:

"It Ain't Over, till it's Over"

[commonsense]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyBqpjcissc

If a doctor instructs a nurse to give the wrong injection, you think the nurse is responsible. Such a good taste in music for a ****.

I think we talked about this example already. Are we saying (1) where the nurse believes it to be something other than what was claimed, (2) where the doctor is forthright but there's no reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary, or (3) where the doctor is forthright and there IS a reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary?

The doctor is responsible because he ordered the wrong med AND the nurse is responsible because she failed to question the order. Regardless of intent. Regardless of knowledge. Appropriate sanctions should be levied against each.

[Skepdick]

The doctor is responsible because he ordered the wrong med AND the nurse is responsible because she failed to question the order. Regardless of intent. Regardless of knowledge. Appropriate sanctions should be levied against each.

It is absolutely mind-blowing to me how the human mind always defaults to apportioning blame and responsibility; and punishing people when something goes wrong. Especially when ignorance, not malice is at play.

If punishment made ignorant people smarter, we should sign up all Philosophers for regular torture.

Not a single person bothers to approach the situation from the perspective of preventing recurrence by adding new failsafes.

[Belinda]

The doctor is responsible because he ordered the wrong med AND the nurse is responsible because she failed to question the order. Regardless of intent. Regardless of knowledge. Appropriate sanctions should be levied against each.

It is absolutely mind-blowing to me how the human mind always defaults to apportioning blame and responsibility; and punishing people when something goes wrong. Especially when ignorance, not malice is at play.

If punishment made ignorant people smarter, we should sign up all Philosophers for regular torture.

Not a single person bothers to approach the situation from the perspective of preventing recurrence by adding new failsafes.

I agree with you Skepdick. However I think Commonsense was talking within the frame of social control, and within that realistic frame we have to apportion blame while seeking to understand the ignorant or malicious person. Obviously nobody has the time or the ability to understand the whole soul of the ignorant or malicious person. The ethic that best applies then is the more the power the more should be the responsibility. Doctors have more power than nurses in a disciplined and hierarchical structure aimed at relieving suffering. However nurses, I suppose,are knowledgeable and therefore powerful enough to complain and they should complain if a doctor or anyone else is doing something wrong. Peer review is essential when professional freedom is the rule.

Retribution is useless in any circumstances of social control. Deterrence looks like retribution. "Appropriate sanctions" should never be more than severe enough to deter others and display social control. The difference between deterrence and retribution is deterrence policies are at least justifiable by need to keep the peace so people can be free to live in peace and prosperity. Rehabilitation is better than deterrence and in most circumstances is more effective in the long run unless society is to be divided into polarised class structure.

The US is in actual fact, severely polarised into separate social classes. This fact has been used by clever Trump to make false promises to aggrieved people so to empower himself. He is the culprit and his is the responsibility for the dangerous unrest.

[tillingborn]

My disposition is that I don't have an issue with anything short of force. Other people have other dispositions, obviously.

Can't argue with that, but I think the issue is muddied by what is lawful and what is harmful. At present in the US offering, persuading or forcing someone to smoke a joint are all illegal in some states, but like you and most people with a conscience would think, it is only the element of force that would be an issue in others.
Out of interest, are you familiar with the Milgram study? https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html

[Sculptor]

I think we talked about this example already. Are we saying (1) where the nurse believes it to be something other than what was claimed, (2) where the doctor is forthright but there's no reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary, or (3) where the doctor is forthright and there IS a reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary?

Same back to you with Hitler giving order to invade the Ukraine.
Let's hear what you got!

You're talking about factual knowledge in the latter case then? What factual knowledge?

FFS.
How would you judge Hitler's responsibility when he ordered the invasion of the Ukraine. It's not a difficult question.

[Terrapin Station]

If a doctor instructs a nurse to give the wrong injection, you think the nurse is responsible. Such a good taste in music for a ****.

I think we talked about this example already. Are we saying (1) where the nurse believes it to be something other than what was claimed, (2) where the doctor is forthright but there's no reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary, or (3) where the doctor is forthright and there IS a reasonable expectation for the nurse to have the knowledge necessary?

The doctor is responsible because he ordered the wrong med AND the nurse is responsible because she failed to question the order. Regardless of intent. Regardless of knowledge. Appropriate sanctions should be levied against each.

This isn't my view, but okay, thanks for sharing yours.

[Terrapin Station]

Same back to you with Hitler giving order to invade the Ukraine.
Let's hear what you got!

You're talking about factual knowledge in the latter case then? What factual knowledge?

FFS.
How would you judge Hitler's responsibility when he ordered the invasion of the Ukraine. It's not a difficult question.

The folks who actually invaded Ukraine are responsible, barring other info. What I was clarifying with the nurse example was statuses of factual info--whether anyone was committing contractual fraud, what we can expect people to know re factual info, etc.

[commonsense]

The doctor is responsible because he ordered the wrong med AND the nurse is responsible because she failed to question the order. Regardless of intent. Regardless of knowledge. Appropriate sanctions should be levied against each.

It is absolutely mind-blowing to me how the human mind always defaults to apportioning blame and responsibility; and punishing people when something goes wrong. Especially when ignorance, not malice is at play.

If punishment made ignorant people smarter, we should sign up all Philosophers for regular torture.

Not a single person bothers to approach the situation from the perspective of preventing recurrence by adding new failsafes.

I was merely summarizing the laws in every state where I’ve worked either as a PA or as an LPN.

[Skepdick]

I was merely summarizing the laws in every state where I’ve worked either as a PA or as an LPN.

No wonder people are scared to exercise their own judgment!!!

Nobody ever got sent to prison for blindly following the rules.

[Sculptor]

You're talking about factual knowledge in the latter case then? What factual knowledge?

FFS.
How would you judge Hitler's responsibility when he ordered the invasion of the Ukraine. It's not a difficult question.

The folks who actually invaded Ukraine are responsible, barring other info. What I was clarifying with the nurse example was statuses of factual info--whether anyone was committing contractual fraud, what we can expect people to know re factual info, etc.

I did not ask you about the actual soldiers on the ground I asked you about HITLER's responsibility.
Now please answer the question!

[Terrapin Station]

FFS.
How would you judge Hitler's responsibility when he ordered the invasion of the Ukraine. It's not a difficult question.

The folks who actually invaded Ukraine are responsible, barring other info. What I was clarifying with the nurse example was statuses of factual info--whether anyone was committing contractual fraud, what we can expect people to know re factual info, etc.

I did not ask you about the actual soldiers on the ground I asked you about HITLER's responsibility.
Now please answer the question!

Zero unless we're talking about factual info where there may have been deception, etc.