What is P and -P?

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Scott Mayers
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Re: What is P and -P?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:27 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:09 pm (blah blah blah)

Either way, the Law of Identity is not about the symbols specifically but to the agreement in the MEANING of the symbols you choose.

(blah blah blah)
Higher up in your post you pointed out that "=" can (and does) mean multiple things. So, you are recognising that one symbol can mean two things which is the definition of equivocation. Or the definition of "polymorphism" - depending on which camp of understanding you are in.

But you've pointed out the main reason why every logical system blows up. The tokenizer is the thing which assigns meaning to symbols, and in particular - the tokenizer assigns meaning to operators.

And if I simply come up with some new operation/operator (that is not representable/expressible in your current notation) ... well. Unexpected things happen.

Example: The LNC is often codified as ¬P ∧ P ⇔ False, but does ¬P ∧ P ⇔ False imply or necessitate P ∧ ¬P ⇔ False ? Could there be a system such that P ∧ ¬P ⇔ True but ¬P ∧ P ⇔ False ? Of course! Because nowhere in the LNC does it specify that the "∧" operator must commute.


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And I should hope to learn what it means for a mechanically realizable and realised logical system to be "inconsistent".

It's defined as "inconsistent" even though it's consistent with reality. So now what?
Totality is 'inconsistent' consistently in that it is not 'closed'.

As for symbol assignment, the laws of (all) logics are only about the meaning, not the particlar symbols they are FORCED to use when attempting to express anything.

Note that "inconsistency" means "inconsistency AND consistency" simultaneously of the same universe of discourse. A 'logic' addressing such would be "induction" as an example, to which science applies to. Our conscious existence is another example given we are a machine that is not 'complete'; contradictions are what MOTIVATES or redirects one towards some other direction. A 'closed' system simply rejects the contradiction. But an 'open' system (some define as 'informal logic') can be PARTIALLY closed with respect to a subset of its rules but permit non-closure, such as a command to act might represent when we use real human languages. For instance, normal propositional logic deals with closed sentences, where some particular grammar of human language uses but EXTENDS to open-ended communications, like, "Hey you, come here," can represent as being meaningful. The logic of such a sample command is open in that it the SATISFACTION of such an input statement is only 'closed' when you accept both the possiblity that the person one is asking to come to them OR doesn't come to them.

The difference relates to 'functions' versus 'relations'. We treat formal logics as 'functions' (one expected unique outcome per any set of inputs) versus, for example, a 'relation' that permits multiple outputs (any number more than one). You CAN define a partial or open system within a closed system but then would have to discretely separate the outputs such that the whole is a set of functions instead. We define a circle 'functionally' first in math as two functions combined. The top half, and the bottom half, when we use the Cartesian plane to define. The whole circle is no longer a 'function' yet still CLOSED in meaning by allowing for inclusion of 'relations' and not just 'functions'. As such, this shows a relative use of keeping those three universal laws to describe any system of reasoning, consistent or inconsistent. Notice that oddly here, 'functions', though 'complete' in form, is 'incomplete in that these are just one KIND of 'relation(ship)'. The 'relations', by contrast are normally treated as 'unsatisfactory' in that they have more than one outputs that can represent whole outputs that are MULTIVARIABLE in essence. Math in these cases utilizes both consistency and inconsistency by merely expressing things BY perspective consistencies that get combined.

I'm not sure I'm helping given your different background. But the laws of logic are sufficient to describe any system. The confusion I think that you and the OP may be having is to confuse how different languages opt to use different symbols. But that is mistaking the issue of 'spelling' conventions (or syntax) to the comprehension of the underlying logic that is universal. You can express the same MEANING of something using different languages (where equally complete or incomplete). The meaning is what the logic refers to but is forced to use some arbitrary convention of symbols. That arbitrariness of symbols is NOT what the laws of logic refer to. Those laws are 'semantic' laws, not 'syntax'.

Edit: Note that your given, (P=P)=(-P=-P) using the same sign HAPPENS to coincidentally be also true, by the way. But this is because it the MAIN comparitive (=) is true when it mean EITHER "evaluatively true" OR "logically true". But normally, logic expressions of the laws don't mix the two and so would always use different symbols for the middle term that I illustrated. When ONLY expressing the law with ONE comparative symbol, there is no confusion: P=P if stated for Identity, means the '=' is undertood to be the "logical equivalence".
Last edited by Scott Mayers on Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:59 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:40 pm ??? It would be some third option that doesn't fit the construction, hence that would be a false dichotomy.
There is no third option to a construction that was DESIGNED with only two options!
The whole gist of a false dichotomy is that something is presented (designed) as there being only two options, but there are really more.
That's a really weird thing to say as a physicalist. Physicalism is a monist metaphysic, but you are reaching for a dualist justification.
Physicalism doesn't amount to saying that there aren't both shoes and cabbages, that there isn't both inside of a movie theater and outside of a movie theater. It just says that shoes, cabbages, inside and outside of a movie theater, and everything else there is is physical.

It's the reverse of reference!
LOL
if the word "cow" points to a referent, dereferencing the pointer "cow" means determining what it's referring to!
Determining what a term refers to is denotative meaning on "all sides." The reference is the denotation or extension--whatever we parse a term to point at. So the reference or denotation (or extension) is the cow, as long as we parse "cow" to be pointing at a cow via our ascription of denotative meaning.

I am of the view that you can't actually observe anything WITHOUT THE MIND, so "objectivity" as "mind-independence" is horseshit!
The issue would be whether you think that you're observing your mind, or are you observing the cow.
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Re: What is P and -P?

Post by Skepdick »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:43 pm The whole gist of a false dichotomy is that something is presented (designed) as there being only two options, but there are really more.
Then you don't understand what it means to design things.

If you design a bicycle with two wheels it doesn't "really" have more.
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:43 pm Physicalism doesn't amount to saying that there aren't both shoes and cabbages, that there isn't both inside of a movie theater and outside of a movie theater. It just says that shoes, cabbages, inside and outside of a movie theater, and everything else there is is physical.
You don't have to say it. It entails it. If everything is physical then you speak from a physicalist/physicist perspective.

There's no such thing as "cabbage". There's only leptons, quarks and electrons in a quantum field. Everything thereafter is abstraction.

Atoms are abstract. Molecules are abstract. Cells, animals, humans - abstract.

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:43 pm Determining what a term refers to is denotative meaning on "all sides."
In so far as I can tell there's my side and your side.

Which side is the "ALL" sides side?

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:43 pm The reference is the denotation or extension--whatever we parse a term to point at.
WE who? I don't have to parse the term "cow" - I encoded/expressed it. You have to parse it.
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:43 pm So the reference or denotation (or extension) is the cow, as long as we parse "cow" to be pointing at a cow via our ascription of denotative meaning.
The denotative meaning is whatever meaning you extracted from the term. But there's nothing in the term except the three symbols "c", "o" and "w".

So whatever its "denotative meaning" it sure as fuck it's not in the term. It's in your head.

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:43 pm The issue would be whether you think that you're observing your mind, or are you observing the cow.
That's not at all the issue. The issue is thus. Would you still be observing anything without a mind?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:14 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:43 pm The whole gist of a false dichotomy is that something is presented (designed) as there being only two options, but there are really more.
Then you don't understand what it means to design things.

If you design a bicycle with two wheels it doesn't "really" have more.
If there's another option for a stance/view than the two presented, how are there not more stances/views than the two presented?
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:19 pm If there's another option for a stance/view than the two presented, how are there not more stances/views than the two presented?
Trivially. Whatever "third" option you present (if? when?) you actually present it, I am 100% certain will neatly fit into one of the two categories I have presented you with.

How do I know?

Because I am the one categorizing!
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Re: What is P and -P?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:32 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:19 pm If there's another option for a stance/view than the two presented, how are there not more stances/views than the two presented?
Trivially. Whatever "third" option you present (if? when?) you actually present it, I am 100% certain will neatly fit into one of the two categories I have presented you with.

How do I know?

Because I am the one categorizing!
If the point is that you can interpret anything to fit into whatever schematic if you really want to, sure. But then we could just go with one option for everything, because someone could interpret anything to fit into that if they want to. But then we're just being trolls again.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:35 pm If the point is that you can interpret anything to fit into whatever schematic if you really want to, sure.

But then we could just go with one option for everything, because someone could interpret anything to fit into that if they want to. But then we're just being trolls again.
No shit. As a physicalist that's what you are doing. Are you a troll?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:36 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:35 pm If the point is that you can interpret anything to fit into whatever schematic if you really want to, sure.

But then we could just go with one option for everything, because someone could interpret anything to fit into that if they want to. But then we're just being trolls again.
No shit. As a physicalist that's what you are doing. Are you a troll?
I'm more than willing to entertain ontological categories other than "physical" for anyone who wants to try to make them coherent.
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Re: What is P and -P?

Post by Skepdick »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:43 pm I'm more than willing to entertain ontological categories other than "physical" for anyone who wants to try to make them coherent.
If "physicalism" is coherent, then so is every monist metaphysic.

Lets make one up while we at it. Energism - everything is energy.

Although it's weird that you would use the word "coherent" here, which normally means "sticking together", which implies there are parts to stick together.

Physicalism is "coherent" because it has only one part!
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Re: What is P and -P?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:46 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:43 pm I'm more than willing to entertain ontological categories other than "physical" for anyone who wants to try to make them coherent.
If "physicalism" is coherent, then so is every monist metaphysic.

Lets make one up while we at it. Energism - everything is energy.

Although it's weird that you would use the word "coherent" here, which normally means "sticking together", which implies there are parts to stick together.

Physicalism is "coherent" because it has only one part!
I'd welcome anyone who wants to try to make energy "on its own" a coherent idea. Would you like to try?
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Re: What is P and -P?

Post by Skepdick »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:51 pm I'd welcome anyone who wants to try to make energy "on its own" a coherent idea. Would you like to try?
Lead the way with "physical". Or if you like higher grade questions...

Make "coherence" a coherent idea.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:52 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:51 pm I'd welcome anyone who wants to try to make energy "on its own" a coherent idea. Would you like to try?
Lead the way with "physical". Or if you like higher grade questions...

Make "coherence" a coherent idea.
No interest of you're not interested in trying to make an alternative to physicalism seen coherent. Largely because I know you'd never get around to bothering with that. So I'd not be about to enter into it as if you're legitimately interested in a serious philosophical discussion. Again, you're really just trolling here.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:57 pm No interest of you're not interested in trying to make an alternative to physicalism seen coherent.
Which part of "ALL monist metaphysics are of equivalent coherence" did you not understand?

Whether that coherence is zero or infinity - I dunno. I hope you can tell me.
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:57 pm Largely because I know you'd never get around to bothering with that. So I'd not be about to enter into it as if you're legitimately interested in a serious philosophical discussion.
I promise to do it. As soon as you demonstrate this thing called "coherence" and where it is in "physicalism".
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:57 pm Again, you're really just trolling here.
I am doing exactly what you are doing. If that's trolling - so be it.
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Re: What is P and -P?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:02 pm

I promise to do it.
Yeah, let me pay you for that bridge first.
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Re: What is P and -P?

Post by Skepdick »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:06 pm Yeah, let me pay you for that bridge first.
I don't want you to pay for a bridge.

I want you to solve the epistemic problem of criterion.

What's your criterion for "coherence" ?

You must have one, since you have asserted physicalism is "coherent".

But if you ever felt like a hamster... the categories of "coherent" and "incoherent"....
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