Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:26 pm
I'm afraid you're still confused on what the Bible is talking about there, DAM. I'm not saying that human beings have this capacity...nor does the Bible say that.
It says
God does.
But if God does, then his son has the capacity to be like his Father,
The Son (notice the capital letter: there is only one such) not only has the capacity to be like the Father, but even to begin making other people more like the Father...and with that, to deal with the problem of their failure and sins committed previously.
He has the power to make many sons (small "s", more than one).
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the originator of their salvation through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:10)
But why would God knowing impose the game of salvation and forgiveness for the sake of heaven on earth in the game of Incarnation.
It's not a "game," DAM. And it's not "imposed." It's the rational and moral order of things.
Think of it this way: man has sinned, and fallen short of God. That creates a double-bind for God's situation, one that will be familiar to you from Atheist's cynical objections. Firstly, if God is good, how can He allow sin? For sin creates injustice. People use their free will to harm one another...even to hurt the innocent, and that is unjust.
And isn't this world right now hollering for justice? They're crying out for it, kneeling in the streets and on the football pitches for it, and yelling for it from the public platform, are they not? But what are they hollering for? Only that the unfairness would be ended, the oppression defeated, the right outcomes produced...everybody wants justice.
And that's right. Justice is fair. They should want it. But here's the other side of the problem: how MUCH justice? How much justice should a holy God practice? Should He, say, put an end to big sins like theft and oppression, but give a pass to gossip, slander, sexual exploitation or greed? How far should a truly holy God go with this justice business?
Think about it. Does the answer not have to be "all the way"? Would a God be holy and righteous if He set to right big sins, but just turned a blind eye to other ones? Would He then be just or righteous? Or is that not, in fact what "injustice" means...the giving of favours to some, and the taking of them from others, without just reason?
So in hollering for justice, the world is hollering to be judged. And that terrifying thing is that this world WILL be judged. It must be, if God is who He says He is: the righteous and holy Ruler of this universe.
This gets us to the second problem in the double-bind: if God judges us, then where is mercy? Where is his purported kindness? Where is forgiveness? And where are we?
So we've got God in a real vice, don't we? If he doesn't judge, and judge with perfect righteousness, He's not righteous. If He does judge, then He's not merciful, kind or loving. What is a God to do, if He is both?
This is the answer given by the Incarnation. God sent His son to be both the Judge and the Redeemer of mankind. In love, Christ took the penalty that a holy God must mete out to mankind for what mankind has done in all its abuses of freedom. Justice has been served -- but not served against us, but against the Son of God who stood in for us and took the punishment that was rightfully ours.
As the Bible says in Isaiah:
"...it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To fall on Him." (Isaiah 53:4-6)
There's no "game" here. The stakes were as high as the sky. But as many as will accept what God has done for us shall be saved. God Himself has done what we never could. But the deal is this: no price payed for our sins can count unless we, of our own free will, will agree that it counts. That is why it is by faith in Christ that we are saved; faith is believing that God will take the justice meted out against His son in place of the judgment due against us.
His plan is love: that through this, we can be forgiven, healed, and made to be what we could never, of our own nature, be: the sons and daughters of God. The Son of God willingly made Himself our opportunity to be brought to God. But it's up to us whether we accept that bargain or not.
