the limits of fascism

[Scott Mayers]

One of the most interesting things that I was interested in is how those like Hilter were able to lead people the way he did and so studied a lot on HOW they did this.

Then you know that they were Called "National Socialists," as well. And you know that they used Antifa style methods, called the "brownshirts" to beat down their opposition. You know about Kristelnacht and the scapegoating of the Jews. You know about the Nazi subverting of the electoral process, about how they centralized government and socialized the economy, and made the Nazi party the only show in town.

All of that you know, you say. Okay.

Guess what? I know that history too.

You are acting ungracefully when I offer weaknesses of the Left as though it was intended to give you fuel to insult while ignoring the context. I mentioned them not as THE major problem that you should focus your arrogant attitude on. The vast majority of the protesters there were correctly Fascist and National Socialist. I was stating that I think Antifa is acting in the same way for some of their behavior. They are USING the normal 'right-wing' tactics REFLECTIVELY and something that many of us think we should not on the Left since it only fosters the SAME KIND of hate while amplifying those who hate by default on the right. But given HOW you and others keep up with your hate of some deluded concept of what you think is 'socialist', I am not surprised at their reaction. I'm fed up too given the present insurrection of your side's belief in using intentional dishonesty AT ALL COSTS.

Thank you for contributing to the counter forces that is going to end capitalism altogether. [Not something that I wished]. Your behavior is actually the CAUSE of those going to the extreme on the left because no one can compete agains the Machivellian uses of intentional deception and abuse of the opposition without having to BECOME an advocate for requiring to use the same kind of abusive tactics. Or is this what YOU really intend?

[Immanuel Can]

You are acting ungracefully...

I see a bunch of wildly unwarranted accusations, a fair bit of confusion, but nothing I can think of how to reply to. Did you have an actual question, Scott?

[Belinda]

Then there is no such thing as a 'socialist' by your definition where others use the term.

Funny: they were burning Portland last night. What a strange thing for a pure fiction to be able to do!

They occupied Seattle. They burned Rochester, stormed Minneapolis, stampeded in Baltimore, rioted in LA...these "no such things" of yours certainly do get around, Scott.

What sort of socialists form violent mobs, Immanuel? All the socialists I know are nice people . There even some nice people who are Conservatives.

I sometimes wonder if you like agitating unrest and divisions.

[Immanuel Can]

What sort of socialists form violent mobs...

Well, you can certainly go to Baltimore, Atlanta, LA, Kenosha, Rochester, Chicago, Dallas, Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, Washington...and find out.

All the socialists I know are nice people . There even some nice people who are Conservatives.

I have many friends who have been deceived by Socialism. And they do tend to be the well-intended types, because I don't hang out with the other kind, of course. But I'm afraid your nice Socialist friends and mine are not the people who end up in charge of Socialism, inevitably. They're simply too nice to not fall prey to the Stalins, Lenins, Pol Pots, Castros, Kim Jongs and such of the world.

Sadly, Socialism, in 100% of the historical cases, has been taken over by the bad Socialists, like the ones listed above. But since that's how it always goes, it's suicide to set up a Socialist state. It's always been...and so long as men are capable of evil, it always will be.

[Advocate]

[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=488551 time=1610134567 user_id=9431]
[quote=Belinda post_id=488522 time=1610130693 user_id=12709]
What sort of socialists form violent mobs...[/quote]
Well, you can certainly go to Baltimore, Atlanta, LA, Kenosha, Rochester, Chicago, Dallas, Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, Washington...and find out. :shock:

[quote]All the socialists I know are nice people . There even some nice people who are Conservatives.[/quote]
I have many friends who have been deceived by Socialism. And they do tend to be the well-intended types, because I don't hang out with the other kind, of course. But I'm afraid your nice Socialist friends and mine are not the people who end up in charge of Socialism, inevitably. They're simply too nice to not fall prey to the Stalins, Lenins, Pol Pots, Castros, Kim Jongs and such of the world.

Sadly, Socialism, in 100% of the historical cases, has been taken over by the bad Socialists, like the ones listed above. But since that's how it always goes, it's suicide to set up a Socialist state. It's always been...and so long as men are capable of evil, it always will be.
[/quote]

Capitalism etc. also absolutely fall prey to the same problem. The difference is whether the problem is inherent. Socialism does not imply method and so who is in charge (and how) is an entirely different discussion.

[Immanuel Can]

What sort of socialists form violent mobs...

Well, you can certainly go to Baltimore, Atlanta, LA, Kenosha, Rochester, Chicago, Dallas, Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, Washington...and find out.

All the socialists I know are nice people . There even some nice people who are Conservatives.

I have many friends who have been deceived by Socialism. And they do tend to be the well-intended types, because I don't hang out with the other kind, of course. But I'm afraid your nice Socialist friends and mine are not the people who end up in charge of Socialism, inevitably. They're simply too nice to not fall prey to the Stalins, Lenins, Pol Pots, Castros, Kim Jongs and such of the world.

Sadly, Socialism, in 100% of the historical cases, has been taken over by the bad Socialists, like the ones listed above. But since that's how it always goes, it's suicide to set up a Socialist state. It's always been...and so long as men are capable of evil, it always will be.

Capitalism etc. also absolutely fall prey to the same problem.

Apparently not. Name a "Capitalist regime" led by a dictator.

Socialism does not imply method...

Yeah, it does: economic nationalization. That means that all businesses, services and industries become directly controlled by the national government. That's Socialism. And that's a method.

[Belinda]

The Jewish socialist Arthur Rosenberg traced the origins of fascism as a mass movement to the period before the first world war, when millions were already infected by volkisch, racial-nationalist ideology, and by contempt for democratic government. It consolidates through experimentation, learning the ropes through episodes that, at first, appear amateurish and thuggish, from the beer hall (Munich) putsch to the demolition of the Babri Masjid. First as farce, then as tragedy.

Quoted from Richard Seymour's article in The Guardian newspaper, a free publication.

[Belinda]

What sort of socialists form violent mobs...

Well, you can certainly go to Baltimore, Atlanta, LA, Kenosha, Rochester, Chicago, Dallas, Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, Washington...and find out.

All the socialists I know are nice people . There even some nice people who are Conservatives.

I have many friends who have been deceived by Socialism. And they do tend to be the well-intended types, because I don't hang out with the other kind, of course. But I'm afraid your nice Socialist friends and mine are not the people who end up in charge of Socialism, inevitably. They're simply too nice to not fall prey to the Stalins, Lenins, Pol Pots, Castros, Kim Jongs and such of the world.

Sadly, Socialism, in 100% of the historical cases, has been taken over by the bad Socialists, like the ones listed above. But since that's how it always goes, it's suicide to set up a Socialist state. It's always been...and so long as men are capable of evil, it always will be.

You hallucinate about communism.
Are you Christian supremacist?

[Advocate]

[quote=Belinda post_id=488586 time=1610147940 user_id=12709]
[color=#800000][quote]The Jewish socialist Arthur Rosenberg traced the origins of fascism as a mass movement to the period before the first world war, when millions were already infected by volkisch, racial-nationalist ideology, and by contempt for democratic government. It consolidates through experimentation, learning the ropes through episodes that, at first, appear amateurish and thuggish, from the beer hall (Munich) putsch to the demolition of the Babri Masjid. First as farce, then as tragedy.[/quote][/color]

Quoted from Richard Seymour's article in The Guardian newspaper, a free publication.
[/quote]

That doesn't seem right. I believe it's a prototypically WWII Italian version of the same sort of shenanigans that have gone on by other names everywhere, from National Socialism to Brexit to 9-11 - get people scared and then institute draconian "security" measures.

[Belinda]

The Jewish socialist Arthur Rosenberg traced the origins of fascism as a mass movement to the period before the first world war, when millions were already infected by volkisch, racial-nationalist ideology, and by contempt for democratic government. It consolidates through experimentation, learning the ropes through episodes that, at first, appear amateurish and thuggish, from the beer hall (Munich) putsch to the demolition of the Babri Masjid. First as farce, then as tragedy.

Quoted from Richard Seymour's article in The Guardian newspaper, a free publication.

That doesn't seem right. I believe it's a prototypically WWII Italian version of the same sort of shenanigans that have gone on by other names everywhere, from National Socialism to Brexit to 9-11 - get people scared and then institute draconian "security" measures.

So how might people stop the USA becoming fascist?

We have now seen the early beginning of fascism in a mob's contempt for democracy and the rule of law,

[Immanuel Can]

Sadly, Socialism, in 100% of the historical cases, has been taken over by the bad Socialists, like the ones listed above. But since that's how it always goes, it's suicide to set up a Socialist state. It's always been...and so long as men are capable of evil, it always will be.

You hallucinate about communism.

Name one place where the pattern I describe has not happened. Just one. Anywhere. Anytime. Show me that sunny land where Communism produces happiness.

[Immanuel Can]

So how might people stop the USA becoming fascist?

By never sponsoring Socialism, whether "national" or "international."

[Belinda]

So how might people stop the USA becoming fascist?

By never sponsoring Socialism, whether "national" or "international."

It is an unfortunate fact about communism that it fosters social inequality. Relativity is not confined to nuclear physics but affects also human relationships.

By contrast with communism, democratic socialism restrains both right wing and left wing dictatorial tendencies. The leading Western democracy must remain democratic.

[Immanuel Can]

It is an unfortunate fact about communism that it fosters social inequality.

Correct. But it follows, then, if you want equality, don't support Socialism/ Communism.

[Advocate]

[quote=Belinda post_id=488652 time=1610185751 user_id=12709]
[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=488617 time=1610156945 user_id=9431]
[quote=Belinda post_id=488590 time=1610148468 user_id=12709]
So how might people stop the USA becoming fascist?[/quote]
By never sponsoring Socialism, whether "national" or "international."
[/quote]
It is an unfortunate fact about communism that it fosters social inequality. Relativity is not confined to nuclear physics but affects also human relationships.

By contrast with communism, democratic socialism restrains both right wing and left wing dictatorial tendencies. The leading Western democracy must remain democratic.
[/quote]

Democracy isn't even potentially a good idea. The average person knows nothing about how to vote well, even if the voting system wasn't already captured.