There are many ancillary questions that can be considered along with the relationship between virtual and IRL war—some of which may even need attention prior to addressing cyberspace.
Some additional questions are offered here:
- What is war in the real world? What are its consequences?
- What constitutes an act of war? Examples?
- What is the extent of a cyber war’s effects?
- Can people be harmed or even killed by a cyber war?
- What happens to the environment or an economy as a result of war and/or cyber war?
- Would the Geneva Convention apply to cyber warfare?
- What would constitute a war crime in cyberspace?
- What would citizens be willing to sacrifice in support of the war effort?
- Are there moral imperatives in one or the other?
- and other relevant questions that you may provide...
Here are some “rules of engagement” for this thread:
- Discuss as many of the areas above, or ones of your own making, as you want to.
- Be diplomatic in your replies.
- Abhor ad homs.
Is a cyber attack an act of war?
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commonsense
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Is a cyber attack an act of war?
Last edited by commonsense on Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is a cyber attack an act of war?
The short answer is no.
The US and Russia have been attacking each other since long before WW2. These attacks have been covert on both sides, with neither side admitting to espionage, despite murder, and theft being commonly practised.
Such attacks continue between various states recognised by the US as "rouge" despite being internationally recognised and having democracies more developed than the US's. Recently Iran's nuclear scientists have been murdered - most likely by collusion between the US and Israel.
This shit happens.
Cyber attacks are just a new aspect of this problem.
There are problems with characterising this as war. Wars are technically conflicts between state sponsored actors against other states. Cyber attacks are not easily attributable to governments. I'm damn sure the US is not openly finding their cyber warriors that are hitting Russian and Iranian industry. I do not suppose Russia is making that obvious either.
The US and Russia have been attacking each other since long before WW2. These attacks have been covert on both sides, with neither side admitting to espionage, despite murder, and theft being commonly practised.
Such attacks continue between various states recognised by the US as "rouge" despite being internationally recognised and having democracies more developed than the US's. Recently Iran's nuclear scientists have been murdered - most likely by collusion between the US and Israel.
This shit happens.
Cyber attacks are just a new aspect of this problem.
There are problems with characterising this as war. Wars are technically conflicts between state sponsored actors against other states. Cyber attacks are not easily attributable to governments. I'm damn sure the US is not openly finding their cyber warriors that are hitting Russian and Iranian industry. I do not suppose Russia is making that obvious either.
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Scott Mayers
- Posts: 2485
- Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:53 am
Re: Is a cyber attack an act of war?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet
Cyber attacks evolve beyond the mere expression of free thoughts but extends one's literal power over real things. This is the threat of the Internet-of-Things ("IoT" for short).
My cable company intentionally disaffected my router that I had for a few years 'free' but necessary for the service because it has the modem built into it and proprietarily linked to the company. I had no choice but to turn it in and they sent me a new one of the same. However, that one too failed. Then they offered (conveniently) the upgrade version that handles IPv6 BUT....it has a severe disadvantage: the loss of control of the BIOS access to the major functioning features of the hardware. You still set it up as normal but any security features are offline at some site of the provider. I immediately recognized that this is being done intentionally to permit perfect access by the provider or others, like government AND, most troubling, the hackers intent on harm. The box also limits your normal inputs and lacks ANY indicators except for a 'green' light indicating it is operational.
Another issue is that it defaults to slow re-set up if you unplug the box. This encourages the user to require KEEPING it plugged in, another feature I was able to do with ease on older routers. The router is set up for multiple antenae rather than hardwired, which is fine for those who might want it for their family homes, but hazardous in apartments which are powerful enough to reach all tenants. The box is also has the potential for other 'smart' controls, like listening in, or, something that CHEATS the cost of the 5G networking or broadening access points for the company without our knowledge AND yet at our cost.
I am concerned about the potential and inevitable abuses that will be more and more paramount in the future due to this tech. A good and entertaining program that introduced the idea of this before it was implemented, is "Silicon Valley". They are partly mimicking the real history but with a group of kids who built a program that both compressed information for streaming (without intially noticing the significance of it as a subroutine to a different program). Then they evolved to recognize how they can utilize the IoT of electronics in things like refrigerators and baby monitors to create a 'separate' novel Internet by 'borrowing' the bandwidth and electronics of the harware in these devices. This has actually happened and it seems nothing can be done quick enough to prevent toxic abuses.
The link above is about a 'zero-day' attack, a form of virus that is timed to 'zero out' at a specific time in the future. This has also been likely due to businesses adopting a means to disrupt electronics, to force people to buy new after a time. And while this may not be legit, there is not even a law that could matter effectively to stop it. It is called, "planned obsolescence", which right-wing factions believe is 'fair' practice!!! I have discovered this for myself. I'm afraid to mention the company because the last time I did, the electonics I had that are internet dependent died without cause soon after!
Anyways, that zero-day attack above was a literal attack on Iran's centrifuge facility used to separate gaseous heavy metals, of which the heavier atoms are inevitably the radioactive isotopes of things like spent uranium from regular nuclear power plants that concentrate plutonium or other similar heavy metals. This thus is 'dangerous' and very beyond the mere realm of free speech. The Americans and Israelis set this up to destroy those centrifuges successfully. While governments and large businesses (and the wealthier in general) can afford to find new means to segregate the potential damage from online attacks, it is nevertheless not going to help the vast majority of people everywhere.
So YES, I think that cyber attacks are extremely dangerous.
Oh, and to add to this, we have the new audio and visual capacity to mimick ANYONE from mere samples. This tech will make it more and more difficult to even trust whether you are talking to some loved one, ....even on services like Zoom or Skype. We have to be extra vigillent to even do simple things like answering our phone as the samples that can be used WILL be exploited if not already being done by those wanting to steal people's Identities.
We need to do SOMETHING about this but it has to be INTERNATIONAL or it won't work!
Cyber attacks evolve beyond the mere expression of free thoughts but extends one's literal power over real things. This is the threat of the Internet-of-Things ("IoT" for short).
My cable company intentionally disaffected my router that I had for a few years 'free' but necessary for the service because it has the modem built into it and proprietarily linked to the company. I had no choice but to turn it in and they sent me a new one of the same. However, that one too failed. Then they offered (conveniently) the upgrade version that handles IPv6 BUT....it has a severe disadvantage: the loss of control of the BIOS access to the major functioning features of the hardware. You still set it up as normal but any security features are offline at some site of the provider. I immediately recognized that this is being done intentionally to permit perfect access by the provider or others, like government AND, most troubling, the hackers intent on harm. The box also limits your normal inputs and lacks ANY indicators except for a 'green' light indicating it is operational.
Another issue is that it defaults to slow re-set up if you unplug the box. This encourages the user to require KEEPING it plugged in, another feature I was able to do with ease on older routers. The router is set up for multiple antenae rather than hardwired, which is fine for those who might want it for their family homes, but hazardous in apartments which are powerful enough to reach all tenants. The box is also has the potential for other 'smart' controls, like listening in, or, something that CHEATS the cost of the 5G networking or broadening access points for the company without our knowledge AND yet at our cost.
I am concerned about the potential and inevitable abuses that will be more and more paramount in the future due to this tech. A good and entertaining program that introduced the idea of this before it was implemented, is "Silicon Valley". They are partly mimicking the real history but with a group of kids who built a program that both compressed information for streaming (without intially noticing the significance of it as a subroutine to a different program). Then they evolved to recognize how they can utilize the IoT of electronics in things like refrigerators and baby monitors to create a 'separate' novel Internet by 'borrowing' the bandwidth and electronics of the harware in these devices. This has actually happened and it seems nothing can be done quick enough to prevent toxic abuses.
The link above is about a 'zero-day' attack, a form of virus that is timed to 'zero out' at a specific time in the future. This has also been likely due to businesses adopting a means to disrupt electronics, to force people to buy new after a time. And while this may not be legit, there is not even a law that could matter effectively to stop it. It is called, "planned obsolescence", which right-wing factions believe is 'fair' practice!!! I have discovered this for myself. I'm afraid to mention the company because the last time I did, the electonics I had that are internet dependent died without cause soon after!
Anyways, that zero-day attack above was a literal attack on Iran's centrifuge facility used to separate gaseous heavy metals, of which the heavier atoms are inevitably the radioactive isotopes of things like spent uranium from regular nuclear power plants that concentrate plutonium or other similar heavy metals. This thus is 'dangerous' and very beyond the mere realm of free speech. The Americans and Israelis set this up to destroy those centrifuges successfully. While governments and large businesses (and the wealthier in general) can afford to find new means to segregate the potential damage from online attacks, it is nevertheless not going to help the vast majority of people everywhere.
So YES, I think that cyber attacks are extremely dangerous.
Oh, and to add to this, we have the new audio and visual capacity to mimick ANYONE from mere samples. This tech will make it more and more difficult to even trust whether you are talking to some loved one, ....even on services like Zoom or Skype. We have to be extra vigillent to even do simple things like answering our phone as the samples that can be used WILL be exploited if not already being done by those wanting to steal people's Identities.
We need to do SOMETHING about this but it has to be INTERNATIONAL or it won't work!
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Impenitent
- Posts: 5775
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm
Re: Is a cyber attack an act of war?
don't worry, Trump will declare war against all communists on Jan 19...
foreign and domestic
-Imp
foreign and domestic
-Imp
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Scott Mayers
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Re: Is a cyber attack an act of war?
Is he your Superior Leader? "Hail Trump"?Impenitent wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:26 pm don't worry, Trump will declare war against all communists on Jan 19...
foreign and domestic
-Imp
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Impenitent
- Posts: 5775
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm
Re: Is a cyber attack an act of war?
no comrade, he's notScott Mayers wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:04 amIs he your Superior Leader? "Hail Trump"?Impenitent wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:26 pm don't worry, Trump will declare war against all communists on Jan 19...
foreign and domestic
-Imp
finis
-Imp