resistance is futile

[Advocate]

To not resist power based on an illegitimate national selection system is treason, but resisting is almost certainly at your own cost with no discernible benefit. What then is the ethical thing to do?

[Skip]

To not resist power based on an illegitimate national selection system is treason

In which nation? Treason is defined by the governing body, which is legitimate by its own definition. And not one of them, past of present - afaik - have a law against not resisting the government. They do, however, have plenty of laws against resisting it.
Care to take another run at your framing of the issue?
(There is a valid and potentially interesting question in there.)

[Advocate]

[quote=Skip post_id=485705 time=1608522999 user_id=6255]
[quote=Advocate post_id=485703 time=1608519406 user_id=15238]
To not resist power based on an illegitimate national selection system is treason[/quote]
In which nation? Treason is defined by the governing body, which is legitimate by its own definition. And not one of them, past of present - afaik - have a law against [i]not[/i] resisting the government. They do, however, have plenty of laws against resisting it.
Care to take another run at your framing of the issue?
[/quote]

Only a legitimate government can legitimately say what treason is.

[Skip]

What makes a government "legitimate"?
FFS, get the quotes right! There needs to be square bracket 'quote' square bracket or [username/time/whatever] at one end and a [backslash quote] at the other. If you have any [quotes] in between, the bot doesn't understand where it begins and ends.

[Advocate]

[quote=Skip post_id=485712 time=1608526220 user_id=6255]
What makes a government "legitimate"?
FFS, get the quotes right! There needs to be square bracket 'quote' square bracket or [username/time/whatever] at one end and a [backslash quote] at the other. If you have any [quotes] in between, the bot doesn't understand where it begins and ends.
[/quote]

It might be easier to start with what it is not, like lobbying and special interests.

[Skip]

It might be easier to start with what it is not, like lobbying and special interests.

Lobbying and special interests are way up on the food-chain of delegitimizing a government.
Can you get to the basics?
What is government?
What is its purpose?
Why is it made?
How is it made?
Who makes it?

(PS How the hell can you screw up the quote function when you just use the " function? )

[Advocate]

[quote=Skip post_id=485716 time=1608528973 user_id=6255]
[quote=Advocate post_id=485715 time=1608528683 user_id=15238]
It might be easier to start with what it is not, like lobbying and special interests.
[/quote]
Lobbying and special interests are way up on the food-chain of delegitimizing a government.
Can you get to the basics?
What is government?
What is its purpose?
Why is it made?
How is it made?
Who makes it?

(PS How the hell can you screw up the quote function when you just use the " function? )
[/quote]

It must intend to ensure the basic goods of everyone under it's justification. It must support it's decisions with meaningful reason and evidence. It must maintain a level of simplicity and transparency such that an ordinary citizen will be able to understand it. There must be a system of checks and balances. It must continuously validate it's own policies. It must put me in charge.

[commonsense]

It might be easier to start with what it is not, like lobbying and special interests.

Let’s stick to explaining what government is. What it isn’t becomes a tedious matter of excluding so much. Shrubbery, for example, is not government.

[commonsense]

What is its purpose?

Why is it made?

How is it made?

Who makes it?

It must intend to ensure the basic goods of everyone under it's justification. It must support it's decisions with meaningful reason and evidence. It must maintain a level of simplicity and transparency such that an ordinary citizen will be able to understand it. There must be a system of checks and balances. It must continuously validate it's own policies. It must put me in charge.

What you have here is a good start, but you have more questions to answer other than what government is.

Any government that must put a particular agent in charge is illegitimate for the rest of the population.

[henry quirk]

seems to me, before you can ask about the proper role(s) of government (or even what is government?), you need to ask & answer this...

are there moral facts (about man) we can turn to as guides & boundaries of what is permissible between and among men?

if there are no moral facts then all is permissible, the only limits bein' the shiftin' & shifty opinion of whoever comprises the majority at any time

if there are moral facts, then some strategies, solutions, methods of governance are off the table no matter how well those strategies, solutions, methods work to make life easy or better

[Advocate]

[quote=commonsense post_id=485763 time=1608564433 user_id=14610]
[quote=Advocate post_id=485719 time=1608530253 user_id=15238]
[quote=Skip post_id=485716 time=1608528973 user_id=6255]

What is its purpose?

Why is it made?

How is it made?

Who makes it?
[/quote]

It must intend to ensure the basic goods of everyone under it's justification. It must support it's decisions with meaningful reason and evidence. It must maintain a level of simplicity and transparency such that an ordinary citizen will be able to understand it. There must be a system of checks and balances. It must continuously validate it's own policies. It must put me in charge.
[/quote]

What you have here is a good start, but you have more questions to answer other than what government is.

Any government that must put a particular agent in charge is illegitimate for the rest of the population.
[/quote]

If that was so then there could be no such thing as a legitimate government because the buck always must stop somewhere, whether or not that's a person approved by everyone.

[Advocate]

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=485764 time=1608565371 user_id=472]
seems to me, before you can ask about the proper role(s) of government (or even [i]what is government?[/i]), you need to ask & answer this...

[i]are there moral facts (about man) we can turn to as guides & boundaries of what is permissible between and among men?[/i]

if there are no moral facts then all is permissible, the only limits bein' the shiftin' & shifty opinion of whoever comprises the majority at any time

if there are moral facts, then some strategies, solutions, methods of governance are off the table no matter how well those strategies, solutions, methods work to make life easy or better
[/quote]

Yes, there are moral facts. There are even moral absolutes.

IF we want a better world THEN cooperation is required.
ALL morality requires both sentience and moral reasoning.

[henry quirk]

seems to me, before you can ask about the proper role(s) of government (or even what is government?), you need to ask & answer this...

are there moral facts (about man) we can turn to as guides & boundaries of what is permissible between and among men?

if there are no moral facts then all is permissible, the only limits bein' the shiftin' & shifty opinion of whoever comprises the majority at any time

if there are moral facts, then some strategies, solutions, methods of governance are off the table no matter how well those strategies, solutions, methods work to make life easy or better

Yes, there are moral facts. There are even moral absolutes.

IF we want a better world THEN cooperation is required.
ALL morality requires both sentience and moral reasoning.

IF we want a better world THEN cooperation is required.

do we agree on what a better world is?

[Advocate]

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=485767 time=1608566125 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=485766 time=1608565846 user_id=15238]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=485764 time=1608565371 user_id=472]
seems to me, before you can ask about the proper role(s) of government (or even [i]what is government?[/i]), you need to ask & answer this...

[i]are there moral facts (about man) we can turn to as guides & boundaries of what is permissible between and among men?[/i]

if there are no moral facts then all is permissible, the only limits bein' the shiftin' & shifty opinion of whoever comprises the majority at any time

if there are moral facts, then some strategies, solutions, methods of governance are off the table no matter how well those strategies, solutions, methods work to make life easy or better
[/quote]

Yes, there are moral facts. There are even moral absolutes.

IF we want a better world THEN cooperation is required.
ALL morality requires both sentience and moral reasoning.
[/quote]

[b]IF we want a better world THEN cooperation is required.[/b]

do we agree on what [i]a better world[/i] is?
[/quote]

Down the rabbit hole you go. I'm staying on topic.

[henry quirk]

Yes, there are moral facts. There are even moral absolutes.

IF we want a better world THEN cooperation is required.
ALL morality requires both sentience and moral reasoning.

IF we want a better world THEN cooperation is required.

do we agree on what a better world is?

Down the rabbit hole you go. I'm staying on topic.

okay

here's the topic...

To not resist power based on an illegitimate national selection system is treason, but resisting is almost certainly at your own cost with no discernible benefit. What then is the ethical thing to do?

a free man resists anything or -one that looks to leash him

the discernible benefit of resistin' is remainin' free